He went to bed at 4am

[DevaMajka]

This is getting ridiculous. Ds2 is 16 mos old. His sleep sucks. Last night, he fell asleep at 9pm and woke at 10pm. He didn't go back to sleep until almost 4am! He woke up at noon (waking a few times in between to nurse), and didn't nap until 5pm (he's napping atm). So in 24 hours, he will have 10-11 hours of sleep. But the biggest problem atm is his hours!

It used to be that if he fell asleep before about 11pm, he'd wake up at 5 or 6am for a couple hours, then sleep for a few more.

In the last week or two, the pattern is more like:
1- he doesn't nap after 6ish, then goes to sleep at midnight and sleeps 10 hours OR
2- he falls asleep at 9pm, wakes at 11pm, is awake until 3am, then sleeps until anywhere from 9am to noon.

Last night, I was exhausted and really grumpy with him.
I'm thinking about not letting him fall asleep between 8pm and 11pm, to get him sleeping at night. The problem is that I HATE to keep him awake if he wants to sleep. He doesn't sleep enough as it is, and by the time he falls asleep, I am soooo ready for a break from him (he is busy busy busy, and can be demanding. The child just doesn't stop).

wwyd?

[D_McG]

have you read sleepless in america? She talks about this. How to really stick to a schedule (some kids need them). I would try that.

waking him at 7 no matter what time he goes to sleep at night.
nap at noonish
bedtime at 7.

set mealtimes, etc.

I have had to do that at various times with my son. it worked!

How many hours is he sleeping per day? He needs about 14 at that age, I think.

[newbiemama09]

oh my goodness i just posted about this! my 18 month old has similar awake times and it drives me up the wall. some nights i can't handle it. i agree with PP, stick to a schedule. wake him up at the same time each day (i think DD learns her lesson when we have to wake her at 7 for daycare the days i work) and have a very precise bedtime routine- bath, book, bed (or whatever works for you)

i feel you, mama!!

[DevaMajka]

Very interesting responses. I've never been a routine/schedule kind of gal, but obviously *something* needs to change in regards to his sleep. I guess I'll check out that book, and try to start a routine.

One question, though- I know I'll be able to get him up at a certain time, but hth do you make a child go to bed at a certain time? I totally can't figure out how that would work. lol

It shouldn't be too hard to set up a routine- ds1 goes to bed at 8 every night, and we do the same pre-bed stuff every night. But I don't know how to convince ds2 to go along

Originally Posted by D_McG

How many hours is he sleeping per day? He needs about 14 at that age, I think.

2 days ago, he slept 10-11 hours. Today will be about 12. Ds1 never slept as much as "they" say kids needed, but I could always tell that he got as much sleep as he needed. Ds2- I think he needs more sleep than he's getting.

We kept him up until 11 last night, and he slept from 11 to 8am. He woke a lot to nurse, but was never awake awake, iykwim. It was easy to keep him up (any mention of doing anything fun has him interested), but I so so so wanted to let him sleep. He wears me out!

[ameliabedelia]

I think the important thing is the early wake-up time. Wake him up at 7 AM (or 8) no matter what. Then he should be ready to nap at 1:00 or so and bed by 8 or 9.

Also, if he goes to bed at 9:00 PM and wakes up at 11:00, do not play with him or interact with him in any way other than nursing or cuddling/rocking. Stay in a dark room. Do not turn on lights. Try to make it as boring as possible, so he has no option other than to sleep, My kids would often wake up after 2 hours of sleeping at night, but I always just stayed with them in bed in a dark room, no lights. etc. and they went right back to sleep.

Also, getting out and in the sunshine first thing in the morning helps reset your biological clock. So perhaps, after waking him up at 7 or 8, take him outside for a walk in the stroller or to play in the yard. Even...feed him breakfast outside (if it's not too cold).

Good luck!

[Jessnet]

Op, just wanted to let you know you're not alone

I have been battling the 11-midnight nap, too. For awhile, our regular bedtime was around 3am. YIKES!

*fingers crossed* I've successfully moved it back to about midnight for the past 3-4 days, which I can totally live with. The hardest part for me was that I understood that I needed to wake him up earlier and not let us sleep in until noon, but when we were both awake until 3 or 4am I needed to sleep until noon, too!!

I also do NOT want a child that pops up at 6 -7 am! I'm currently in a PhD program that requires attendance at evening classes from 7pm-10pm three nights a week. That means until 10pm I have to not just be awake but extremely alert! Then I have an 45 min commute home on top of that. Needless to say, getting up at the crack of dawn would soooo not work for our family, but going to sleep at the crack of dawn wasn't working either, lol.

I think the previous poster was onto something. What finally pushed us back was a day long outing to local fair. We got up early (for us) and spent the whole day outside with lots of physical activity. I think the early outside sun idea really did work.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by ameliabedelia

Also, if he goes to bed at 9:00 PM and wakes up at 11:00, do not play with him or interact with him in any way other than nursing or cuddling/rocking. Stay in a dark room. Do not turn on lights. Try to make it as boring as possible, so he has no option other than to sleep, My kids would often wake up after 2 hours of sleeping at night, but I always just stayed with them in bed in a dark room, no lights. etc. and they went right back to sleep.

Well, we could make the early wake up work- ds1 gets up at 8 and goes to school at 9. Dp walks him to school, so he could take ds2 aong too. That would give him early morning light, and get him out and "active". And, he loves going to ds1's school.

As far as keeping it dark and boring at night- I can see how it would work with some (most?) kids, but ds2 isn't one of them. He doesn't need anybody to play. As soon as his eyes open, he's ready to go go go.
He had a phase where if he went to bed at 10 he'd get up at 4-5am. I kept all the lights out, sat in the rocking chair, and was quiet and boring. He regularly stayed up for 2-3 hours. I did turn the tv on quietly, but that was after I realized that he just wasn't going to go to sleep quickly.

But even so, I do think that the routine wakeup time could help get everything on track. Last night he went to sleep at 1am- not great, but better than 4. I so wanted to wake him up at 8, but I was so tired I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Originally Posted by Jessnet

The hardest part for me was that I understood that I needed to wake him up earlier and not let us sleep in until noon, but when we were both awake until 3 or 4am I needed to sleep until noon, too!!

Yes! Exactly the problem I had this morning! I'll have to ask dp to take over morning wakings (he's up with ds1 anyway.)

I also do NOT want a child that pops up at 6 -7 am!

Same here- it actually works better for dp if ds2 and I sleep in. He WAH, and it's much easier for him to get stuff done when we're not up. But obviously, ds's sleep needs to change, for him and for me. Maybe if we wake early enough, there will be a regular nap time that ds can get some work done.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka

One question, though- I know I'll be able to get him up at a certain time, but hth do you make a child go to bed at a certain time? I totally can't figure out how that would work. lol

Consistency is KEY. Start bedtime at the same time every single night. We do shower, stories, then lights out and nursing, then we lay in bed together until he sleeps. The lights do.not.go.on.at.all until morning. The first few nights it took FOREVER to get him to sleep. FOREVER - like 2 hours. Then, he kinda gave up (not CIO giving up, it just wasn't fun to be laying in bed being told it was night night time over and over again), and it now takes on average 1hour from start to finish.

Originally Posted by DevaMajka

As far as keeping it dark and boring at night- I can see how it would work with some (most?) kids, but ds2 isn't one of them. He doesn't need anybody to play. As soon as his eyes open, he's ready to go go go.
He had a phase where if he went to bed at 10 he'd get up at 4-5am. I kept all the lights out, sat in the rocking chair, and was quiet and boring. He regularly stayed up for 2-3 hours. I did turn the tv on quietly, but that was after I realized that he just wasn't going to go to sleep quickly.

Dark and boring, and not getting out of bed is what does it for us. Truly. When ds gets up we stay in bed until morning. We don't get up (for milk I sometimes will, or he will nurse, or if he poops I'll get a new dipe - but he doesn't get up with me). The first few nights its fun to be awake in the dark, but it helps to set their "clock" so that they stop doing the early wake-ups. Every time ds gets up I gently lay him back down and say, "its night night time. You need to lay down and go to sleep. I love you." THen I lay down with him. And me laying down and closing my eyes really isn't fun! Sitting in the rocking chair signals to him that its time to be up sitting in the chair - so if you lay down it might work better.

NEVER turn on the tv until you are ready to be up for the day. Really, it just makes things so much worse.

[DevaMajka]

Alright- I'll try it. I admit, I'm skeptical But obviously, something has to change, and you all might be onto something

[Super~Single~Mama]

Good luck! I hope it works for you!!

Just remember that it might take a few days to a week to get him really used to the consistent schedule/routine. And, for your own sleep needs make sure to get your dh on board! If he takes ds2 to walk your older ds to school that would be PERFECT b/c its LOTS of good exercise (even if its a short walk - its TONS more steps for a 16mo than an older child or adult!!) and sets him up for an earlier nap! That is like, the PERFECT solution to the nap issue.

And, NO TV! I don't own one (can't afford cable so it would just sit there), but even still, an hour before bed or nap time it should go off - b/c it's highly stimulating for little ones. Both audio and visual - its alot going on for a little one. So, no tv around nap or bedtime. That should help.

Also, expect a fight. He might cry. Thats ok. I don't do CIO, but I also don't give into tantrums. I'm ALWAYS there until he falls asleep - heck, most of the time I fall asleep with him! If he gets mad hold your ground, "I'm sorry you're angry. Would you like to nurse? It's night night time. I love you." I'm HUGE on saying "I love you" a million times at bedtime, b/c its soothing for my munchkin and he always relaxes right after I say it. Often, when he falls asleep its right after I've said "I love you" - but ymmv.

Good luck!! Keep us posted.

[D_McG]

I agree to not let him out of bed. The very odd night DS went through that it wasn't pleasant to have him complain non stop but 'we don't get up at night'. 'it's night time'. 'night time is for sleeping'.

I have to do the same thing with DD when she wakes up at 4 or something equally ridiculous. The first night she screamed and kicked but we didn't get up. I don't get up until at least 5:30. And I'm the boss

Now if she wakes up she sings, rolls around, asks for hugs, whatever.

[sapphire_chan]

Does this "Sleepless in America" book that people keep recommending tell HOW to get the baby/toddler to nap at time X every day? Drugs? Tying them down and hoping they'll be bored into sleeping?

ETA: Okay, finally looked at the book on Amazon.com and can see that it actually looks pretty awesome. Can I just say that the stuff about tension and so forth is going to be a LOT more useful than the schedule stuff that people keep sharing about the book? Really, the way it's been presented it seemed like just another sleep training manual, but it looks like it really gets into the physiology of sleep.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Does this "Sleepless in America" book that people keep recommending tell HOW to get the baby/toddler to nap at time X every day? Drugs? Tying them down and hoping they'll be bored into sleeping?

It's all about how to set up your whole life to facilitate a good night's sleep. She says you can try different things. Take or leave what works. Comprimise on things that are important to you (perhaps you really will choose to shave an hour off their night sleep so they see their dad at night. But maybe you won't).

Things I Remember:
TV/screen time (limit/eliminate)
outside time
scheduled mealtimes
early mornings
scheduled bedtimes
bedtime routines

she's very against CIO and implies (again, as I remember) that you do whatever you need to do to get a child to sleep. As easily as possible. For as long as possible.

If this means your 4 year old has a 6:30 bedtime where you lie with them until they're out? Just do it. Even if that means they never see their older sibling play soccer. That kind of thing.

I really enjoyed it b/c she correctly (IMO) identifies just how important sleep is. And just how our lives have come to a point (as a general statement) where they no longer facilite childhood sleep needs.

Well worth a read!

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by D_McG

I agree to not let him out of bed.

How should the OP do this? When I was complaining about DD's sleep patterns earlier people told me "don't let her get up" but didn't actually tell me how to do that.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

How should the OP do this? When I was complaining about DD's sleep patterns earlier people told me "don't let her get up" but didn't actually tell me how to do that.

I tell my kids to lie down and if they don't listen then I physically lie them back down and hold them there if necessary. I did it this morning with my 2 year old, actually. I stay calm and give her kisses. But.. it's 5:30. You can't get up and I'm the boss

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by D_McG

I tell my kids to lie down and if they don't listen then I physically lie them back down and hold them there if necessary. I did it this morning with my 2 year old, actually. I stay calm and give her kisses. But.. it's 5:30. You can't get up and I'm the boss

Your 2 year old doesn't scream the whole time getting more and more frantic over time? Or are you able to wait that out?

Oddly, dd will stay in bed in the morning for quite a while happily playing on top of us. Just not at night. Even if the light is on.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by D_McG

It's all about how to set up your whole life to facilitate a good night's sleep. She says you can try different things. Take or leave what works. Comprimise on things that are important to you (perhaps you really will choose to shave an hour off their night sleep so they see their dad at night. But maybe you won't).

Well worth a read!

Thank you, that review was really helpful. If I hadn't already done so, I would've gone and put the book on hold at the library after reading your review.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Your 2 year old doesn't scream the whole time getting more and more frantic over time? Or are you able to wait that out?

Oddly, dd will stay in bed in the morning for quite a while happily playing on top of us. Just not at night. Even if the light is on.

She definitely freaked out the first couple of times. She's 2 so it's kind of her default reaction But you know...I make the rules here. I know better than her. And I know that her getting up at 5am is just not an option.

[pumpkin]

We have the same problem. I tried waking her up early every morning. It was a disaster. Her sleep got worse.

The only thing that has helped us is to respect her natural rhythm and go with a late bedtime. It's not perfect, but it's the best we can do.
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[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Your 2 year old doesn't scream the whole time getting more and more frantic over time? Or are you able to wait that out?

Oddly, dd will stay in bed in the morning for quite a while happily playing on top of us. Just not at night. Even if the light is on.

The first night we did it, there was some screaming. But my ds didn't get "frantic" b/c I was there with him - it was more that he was mad b/c I wouldn't let him do what he wanted. I associate the word "frantic" with scared and panicked - so no, he didn't do that. Just got mad. The next night it was better, and the night after that even better. We still have the odd night where he doesn't go down easily, but its MUCH better than it used to be.