Is this normal for a 4yo girl?

[lightheartedmom]

Agh.

My DD is amazing and wonderful. I love her with the kind of throw-yourself-in-front-of-oncoming-traffic love that most parents feel for their children. She is my firstborn, the apple of my eye, yadeeyadaya...

But...

Age four (if that's all this is) is kicking my butt. And now I'm actually getting worried, after some somewhat sudden shifts in her personality this last week.

For awhile she's been sort of emotional about everything (lots of crying, fits, etc). A few days ago though, she became much more moody than she normally is. We're talking "Mommy, leave me alone." kind of moody. Most of her antipathy is directed specifically at me; she's more softened with dh.
She is less playful with her little sister than usual; today we went for a walk and whereas normally she would want to hold hands and walk with DD2, she didn't want to be near her much today and especially didn't want to hold hands.

Sometimes I feel like I'm playing the opposite game with her...but other times she doesn't want to do anything ("I'm too much tired!").

Yesterday evening, I was taking dinner over to MIL, who DD loves and normally is over the moon to see. DD did not want to come with me and no amount of coaxing or prodding or negotiating could convince her. She stayed home with her daddy.

I resolved yesterday that a lot of this is due to the fact that she has kept an absolutely abysmal schedule for...well...forever. It's been especially bad lately because dh has been working late and I've been lax with her bedtime and bedtime routine. Plus, she's just coming off an illness where she was allowed to do nothing but lounge in bed and watch Kipper.

So last night I got her in bed before 10 (vs. 11 or 12 lately) and told her stories and sang songs and did all the usual bedtime-y things she likes. We proceeded to spend over 2 hrs together; 2 hrs of her NOT going to sleep. Two hrs of her alternating between "mommy, hold my hand" and "mommy, you're bothering me, go away." (Go away!? !!)

I cannot even tell you how much my heart was breaking last night. It was like I was starring into the abyss...Up to this point I have believed (maybe naively) that love is enough with kids. I love my kids - more than anything - how can that not be enough? But right now...it doesn't feel like enough. It doesn't feel like it's enough for DD and that terrifies me. The fact that I love her more than anything doesn't make her any more cooperative. My love is not enough to mold her into a nice, stable, responsible, decent person (not to say she isn't a decent person now...she's not violent or aggressive, even at her worst). So what is?

Okay...philosophical navelgazing aside, I do think there are two issues that are at work (though maybe not 100% responsible for all of this) - that I can change. One is the schedule problem. She needs better bedtime and a more consistent daily routine. Two is, I think there might be a blood sugar issue going on. She's especially moody and uncooperative in the mornings when she's hungry and really any time during the day when she's more than 1 hr removed from meal time (she also complains that her tummy hurts - that complaint seems to be getting more frequent). I was at least marginally hypoglycemic when I was a kid so I wouldn't be surprised if she has something similar going on.


So...anyone? Normal 4yo girl stuff or something else? Thanks for reading. Sorry this got so long winded. Your advice, tips, BTDT's would be much appreciated. ;-)

[sarahr]

I agree w/ your conclusion re bedtime and food; my dd certainly has many, many more meltdowns when she's hungry and tired. I don't let her snack or empty carbs, but veggies and protein food is always available.

For sleep, what time in the morning does she wake up? 10:00 bedtime seems very, very late unless she sleeps particularly late. I would not have stayed with my dd for 2 hours when she should have been going to sleep -- that would have been a distraction for her and would have kept her up. We do our bedtime routine -- teeth brushing, peeing, pajamas, books, songs -- and then I leave. I'll come back if she really needs me, but hanging out there would not help. I've taught her to "count sheep" if she's having trouble sleeping, which really works -- it gives her something to do while lying in bed, so it keeps her still long enough to actually fall asleep.

I also wouldn't take her telling you to go away personally. I know my dd is experimenting with the power of words and says things to see my reaction, even if she doesn't mean them.

A few months ago, dd was insisting that she wanted to live alone and didn't want me around; now, she complains if I so much as leave the room and she's declared that she's going to live with me forever.

[no5no5]

Yes, I think it's perfectly normal for a 4-year-old girl to tell her mama to "go away" when she's tired and/or hungry. I've certainly heard worse out of my DD's mouth. I'd stick with your bedtime routine and try for extra snacks for a few weeks to see if it helps. You can't expect it to work right away. Plus, everyone needs space from other people sometimes, so just try to think of "go away" as being how she is communicating that need right now.

[meemee]

yes it is related to food and bedtime and also normal.

you will see this happening around growth spurts. this one sounds like an emotional growth spurt. they go into their worst and when they are done, they have matured and grown up.

a common age when that happens is around 4 1/2. moms wonder if their kids are ready for K and suddenly 4 1/2 hits and they ARE.

but yes even at 8 its still v. important for dd to get her sleep and rested, to run around to get her energy out and to kinda not go for too long with nothing in her stomach. that is why i have snacks in the car and when i pick her up from school i have a snack waiting on her booster.

[chattyprincess]

My dd is 4 (july 06 baby) and is similarly emotional when hungry and/or tierd, almost like she cannot get herself controlled. And she has said to me before "mommy im trying to stop I just CAN"T". Dd started junior kindergarten this year (essentially preschool, but in ontario they do 2 years of kindergarten) and I have had to be extra vigilant about feeding and sleep.
She has to have a high protein/fat breakfast and lunch or she is a DISASTER after school (she goes from 12:45-3) even if they eat a snack at school its not enough for her blood sugar levels...I think at this age they must be doing some type of growing, like a pp said emotinally or physically. I have to really limit her carby food and she tends not to want it right now and really gravitates to protein/fats and fresh fruit/veg.
I am saying the next part VERY gently because I am in a simlar situation with dh and his work. He leaves before dd wakes up (sometimes as early as 4am!) and most days does not come to home until after she is in bed. I am finding she is really needingto find more ways to spend time with daddy just to get her "love tank" of daddy filled up. When she is "low" I can tell....
In regards to sleep, dd needs 12 hours. After dinner in our house (dinner is generally around 5:30/6) its no tv time, I turn off the lights (Except for a small lamp if its really dark) and leave the blinds open to allow the natural light to work its magic! I find also if I wait until dd is tierd then its too late and by the time she is ready to go to bed she is overstimulated and over tierd. We play quietly, coloring, board games, etc and then around 7 we start wrapping this up. She gets teeth brushed, tub, lotion, jammies, stories and we talk for about 2-3min after stories and then a hug kisses, all tucked in and goodnight. It is generally before 8 (on the weekends it is definetly closer to 8) and usually around 7:45. I think that truly this is the natural sleep rhythm for smaller children. They seem to "go with the sun" and by the time dd is in bed the sun tends to be down or almost down. When she was yougner she stayed up much later but also slept later...
I thought I would add that all of a sudden with dd starting kindy that I felt really left out and she wouldn't answer questions about her day "nothing" was the answer to what she did all day. I am finding that she opens up and talks now on her own terms. She will talk about something that happened at school randomly throughout the day and I really have to wait patiently and then discuss that with her and it seems to open up and pave the way for the rest of the convo. I think at this age they are starting to become way more seperate from us and starting to internalize alot more and its just a part of growing...they want to talk but at thier own times and about thier own things...its crazy this growing thing!

[StrongBeliever]

I'd seriously look at the link between whatever illness she is overcoming and any potential food related issue that may have came into play at the time. I'm talking an allergy, sensitivity, a "new food" that may have been introduced during her illness. While having her schedule thrown off would contribute hugely to behavioral issues, I don't think that would cause such a huge flip in the script of what she enjoys in life. I know that there are certain foods(some of which hardly count as food, i.e. chemical additives) that can cause that in both my six year old and three year old. One minute they are sweet and loving, an hour after eating said trigger they are MONSTERS that can't cope with normal life.

If you don't mind me asking, what illness is she overcoming? Something that could have wreaked havoc on her digestive system either through the illness itself or through medication taken? I think it makes sense that she could have developed a food allergy/senstivity during the time her system was weak. Or maybe there was some special snack she was allowed while she was sick? My mom always gave us sugary/fruity/marshmallow cereal when we were ill... This with the logic that at least we were eating and something "special" would make us feel better. Could it be you introduced a new or formerly rare food item while she was ill? Or it could just be that while she was sick she just got nutritionally tapped out and just needs a few weeks of nutrient catch up. Your body uses so much more nutrients while ill and recovering.

Of course, it could be hypoglycemia... But does hypoglycemia come on all of a sudden? I don't know much about it.

s It's a tough age anyway, but it's even harder when there are environmental factors tampering with the even keel of things. I know our quality of life(my sanity especially!) became SO much better when I found out and eliminated the things in my kid's diets that were making life so hard for them.

[LuxPerpetua]

My child went from being loving and docile to a moody maniac right after her 4th b-day. It was an emotional growth spurt that lasted until 4.5 and now she's adorable again. Literally, she would say hurtful things and act in hurtful ways and then overnight at 4.5 she just snapped out of it and got easy again. I do keep her as rested as I can (dd also has a late bedtime but sleeps late in the morning) and feed her every 2.5-3 hours a day. That's one way I knew it was an emotional spurt because nothing in her life had changed--she was fed, rested, not sick, no siblings or impending siblings, etc. I just did my best to cope through it and be lovingly authoritative ("No matter how angry you feel inside it is NOT okay to hit people. Ever."). I've heard some people refer to age 4 as the "f---ing fours" and I can understand why. However, I have LOVED 4.5 on so far. I wish she'd just stay this age forever.

[lightheartedmom]

So comforting...all of you. I really appreciate you all taking the time to share your experiences. I feel better just knowing that I'm not the only one who's going through this.

A few things I should mention:

- DD does go to bed late (working very hard on getting it earlier!) but she more than compensates by waking up late in the morning (today it was after 11, and she went to be at 10 last night).

- I am home schooling her, so, all of these issues are very front and center for me and her - all day long. Whatever this is, I have to figure out a way to navigate it for however long it lasts otherwise we won't be able to have a functioning household.

- The "go away" "you're bothering me" "leave me alone" comments are generally taken in context...I don't tolerate them, but right now, she needs a bit of extra understanding from me. She *does* like her space sometimes (I'm like that and so is her dad, so I get it); but this morning, she woke up saying "go away" and I had to have a little come to Jesus meeting with her about it. I told her that we were not going to start our day like that and that she is not allowed to be disrespectful and hurtful like that, even if she is upset. Then I gave her a breakfast snack before she was even out of bed and her mood improved a good deal.

- Today I started using a daily routine chart with her. For every item we do, she gets a star. Can I just say what a miraculous change this addition has made in her behavior? I am shocked. I knew she needed some more structure and routine to her day, but wow. the whole concept lit her up like a Christmas tree. All day she has been talking non-stop about the next star. I just put all the things we do during the day on the list - eat breakfast/clear plate, make bed/get dressed, bible time/catechism, walk, lunch, school, crafts, games (bingo, go fish, etc) and so on. I put 30 minutes in the afternoon before dinner for her to choose either a video or a DS game (yes, video games, I know...DH is a game developer they're sort of just part of the landscape of our family) and then dinner and then bedtime routine. Any extra time in between those things is undirected play time for her. Now I have to figure out where I'm going to fit my stuff in there, since a lot of what's on her schedule requires my being right next to her.

- The other thing I think I didn't mention in my OP is that I have been a total basketcase lately. Well, pretty much off and on the whole year. My DH and I have had a nutty year with job and health issues, two miscarriages and a nightmare situation with our landlords...I've been majorly stressed, not to mention hormonal (breastfeeding, plus several months of pregnancy followed by miscarriage = BAD hormones)...I don't cope with stress well and being the one at home, with little or no outside help and no real outlets (I could really use a yoga class or something), it's sort of spilled out onto the kids way more than it should. DD is very sensitive to what the grown ups are thinking, feeling, saying, doing and I know she's picked up on it, which to me explains at least some of her resistance to me. I'm the grumpy enforcer of the family, whereas DH can come home and having not spent the whole day with the kids, he's the fun one. :-)
I finally made an appointment today to see a therapist, just hoping that getting some of the stress off my chest to a professional will help keep it from oozing out all over my family life. (:::crosses fingers::

So anyway....that's where we are. Thanks again for all our advice and input.

Oh! Also StrongBeliever - you asked about her illness. She had a really really nasty cold. I thought it was whooping cough, but it wasn't (thankfully!). Cold + pink eye. I am concerned about the allergy aspect, especially because I did have to give her antibiotic eye drops for her pink eye (we couldn't clear it up with homeopathy this time...usually breast milk does the trick for us, but this time it just didn't cut it). The only new thing in our diet would be coconut products - So Delicious coconut ice cream and cultured coconut milk. She's had coconut before with no reactions, but never quite in the quantities or variety that she's eating now. I'm definitely open to the food angle though. We already know she reacts to some additives, and especially food coloring. She turns into a crazy child with even just a drop of red food coloring. She didn't have it very often to begin with, but now we have to be extremely aware of every thing she eats to make sure it doesn't have any artificial colors.

thanks again. She'll be 4.5 in December, I'm feeling more hopeful about that after reading all of your stories.