How to talk to friend who is planning circ.

[HeatherRD]

I have a friend who is due Nov. 14. I just attended her baby shower this past weekend, and somehow the topic of circ came up ( I didn't mention it). My friend said that the classes at the hospital made a good point about boys being able to have someone to relate to, and that it's a good idea for them to look the same as their dad for this reason. That seems to be the main reason for circing. I'd like to give her some info on circ in a way that won't be perceived as judgemental. Is it worth it or even possible to try this? Maybe just email a link and say, "Here is some information you may not have heard." If so, what would be a good link to send?

[opera mom]

I would write her. Just saying that you might be worried that the hospital was giving one-sided info and you feel she deserves to make a completely informed decision. It is way easier to talk about it before it is done than after they have made the decision(people get more defensive when they have already done it. For this reason and because I ha e like 4 friends due very soon with boys, I put an informative video on my blog about circ and just hope that they check my blog and reconsider.

[HeatherRD]

Can you post the link to the video? Thanks!

[mama2soren]

I wonder if that's why I never got along great with my mom. Maybe our labia looked different? (Hard to say, since I didn't spend lots of time looking at her genitals...) If only mine were trimmed up to look just like hers, we'd have a better relationship today.

Why is this even presented as a serious argument for circing?

I like your idea for an opening, "here's some info you might not have heard..." It's friendly and non-judgmental. Here's a link to many other links that offer a less quaint side of circumcision. Rather than overwhelm her, perhaps you could send her the direct link of a couple regarding circ complications, pain, benefits of foreskin, etc.

Here's another favorite of mine.

If she's a real researcher, perhaps take a look at Saving Penises. They have a info pack that they could send to your friend with lots of research and even a few DVD's! They will send it anonymously, if you're worried that your friend would get upset with you for mentioning this. They also have a link on their page to lots of pro-intact books.

It's great that you are tactfully speaking up. There have been many mamas who have chosen not to circ because a friend helped them understand why babies are best left intact!

[tennisdude23]

Penis comparisons is not something that father and sons bond over. Sure, boys look up to their dads and see them as role models, but believe me the penis is not the source of attraction here. As one poster on this forum once said, if a Dad wants to look like his newborn son, he better shave his pubic hair and pack ice in his shorts, seriously.

Out of curiosity, do you know in what context the hospital made that statement, because I'm having a hard time believing it was about circumcision, given the idiocy of this line of thought.

[ElliesMomma]

circumcised dads can be insecure about their son having a foreskin b/c it reminds them of what they don't have anymore.

so, it's not really about the son wanting to look like dad, but rather the dad not wanting to be different from the son.

IMO.

[Aliy]

saving penises has some really good articles that the pp linked to already.

looking like dad is one thing that really bugs me. sure if your going to have it done do research and have a real reason and be it your reason not becasue someone told you to. I go by a few things... one the sexual context of why circumcision is in current scoiety. It is not the tradition jewish way that was biblical. Second I go for default my baby comes that way I would have no intention of cutting off an arm casue daddy was missing an arm why would i cut up there sexual oragn????

[brant31]

1) No two circumcisions look alike. It is not a standardized operation, because there is no identifiable structure to remove or dotted line to cut along. Some are loose, some are tight, some have pronounced scars, some have minimal scars, some (many) are lopsided, some have adhesions or skin bridges, some have dramatic color differences between shaft skin and mucosa and others don't. It is an enormous myth that cut & uncut are binary, so that's a ridiculous reason to put a child through surgery.

2) Absolutely no child's penis is going to look like his adult parent's. By the time DS has size and hair, he'll be going through puberty and penis comparisons with Dad will be unthinkable.

3) Circ'ing a child to look like Dad addresses only the psychology of the father, it's never an issue for the child. If it were, how did we ever go from being an intact nation to a largely circumcised nation without massive collective trauma?

[MommytoB]

Totally right on Brant plus many guys when they are asked do you know if your dad is circ'ed they will look at you as if you were crazy but the rest assume that their dad's are circ'ed because they are then they automatically belive it in their mind even though in some cases it may be the opposite.

[HeatherRD]

Well, I did email her some info (the link to the noharm research page), and while she did thank me for it and appreciated it, she said they are still circing, siting the discoveryhealth.com's info that HPV and cervical cancer rates are higher in uncirc'd men (I guess they are more than twice as likely to get it), as well as more likely to get syphilis and chlamydia.

Well, I'm glad I gave her the info. I would have felt guilty if I hadn't. And I'm glad that she appreciated it.

Thanks for all of your advice.

[Arduinna]

poor baby

and honestly, I never buy these lame excuses of how people looked into it but are still circing because of XYZ. IMO they never really considered leaving the child intact.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by HeatherRD

discoveryhealth.com's info that HPV and cervical cancer rates are higher in uncirc'd men (I guess they are more than twice as likely to get it), as well as more likely to get syphilis and chlamydia.

Here's how you respond to that:

1) Men don't have cervices, thus it will be hard to get cervical cancer.
2) Is she going to tell her son, "You are circumcised so you don't need to wear a condom"?

[tennisdude23]

Cervical cancer is caused by HPV. If there is any link between cervical cancer and circumcision, it is very weak. HPV like all other STDs can be prevented through safe sex. I just skimmed the Discovery Health article, and basically it's written in such way that if you are for circumcision, you will still be pro after reading it and vice versa. It really gives no substantive information, and quotes studies without putting them into any context. I can't stress enough that statistics and studies can be used in any way one wishes in order to back up one's findings, especially if they lack a context. On that note, I would check out the Dr. Sears article. I think he writes well on the issue for people who are on the fence and have little factual information.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by HeatherRD

Well, I did email her some info (the link to the noharm research page), and while she did thank me for it and appreciated it, she said they are still circing, siting the discoveryhealth.com's info that HPV and cervical cancer rates are higher in uncirc'd men (I guess they are more than twice as likely to get it), as well as more likely to get syphilis and chlamydia.

OMG...this drives me nuts. He's a newborn. They're not really a high risk group for HPV, syphilis or chlamydia, ime.

[HeatherRD]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Here's how you respond to that:

1) Men don't have cervices, thus it will be hard to get cervical cancer.

Yeah, in paraphrasing what she said, I said it wrong. It will result in higher cancer rates in women because men will pass HPV to their partners...

[HeatherRD]

Here's another quote from discoveryhealth "With good hygiene, safe-sex practices and regular medical checkups throughout a man's life, circumcision isn't necessary. However, it should be left up to each parent to learn as much as possible about the subject, weigh the pros and the cons and make an informed decision. A circumcised boy is unlikely to know any different or care one way or the other, and the same holds true for an uncircumcised boy." Emphasis mine.

That's terrible.

[sosurreal09]

Originally Posted by mama2soren

I wonder if that's why I never got along great with my mom. Maybe our labia looked different? (Hard to say, since I didn't spend lots of time looking at her genitals...) If only mine were trimmed up to look just like hers, we'd have a better relationship today.

Why is this even presented as a serious argument for circing?

I like your idea for an opening, "here's some info you might not have heard..." It's friendly and non-judgmental. Here's a link to many other links that offer a less quaint side of circumcision. Rather than overwhelm her, perhaps you could send her the direct link of a couple regarding circ complications, pain, benefits of foreskin, etc.

Here's another favorite of mine.

If she's a real researcher, perhaps take a look at Saving Penises. They have a info pack that they could send to your friend with lots of research and even a few DVD's! They will send it anonymously, if you're worried that your friend would get upset with you for mentioning this. They also have a link on their page to lots of pro-intact books.

It's great that you are tactfully speaking up. There have been many mamas who have chosen not to circ because a friend helped them understand why babies are best left intact!

lol the beginning is too funny

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by HeatherRD

My friend said that the classes at the hospital made a good point about boys being able to have someone to relate to, and that it's a good idea for them to look the same as their dad for this reason. That seems to be the main reason for circing.

My response to that line of reasoning is : " How often to you expect father and son to be sitting around comparing their penii ??"

[japonica]

Originally Posted by HeatherRD

Well, I did email her some info (the link to the noharm research page), and while she did thank me for it and appreciated it, she said they are still circing, siting the discoveryhealth.com's info that HPV and cervical cancer rates are higher in uncirc'd men (I guess they are more than twice as likely to get it), as well as more likely to get syphilis and chlamydia.

Well, I'm glad I gave her the info. I would have felt guilty if I hadn't. And I'm glad that she appreciated it.

Thanks for all of your advice.

I've never understood this reasoning at all. Amputation as preventative medicine when there's no medical basis for it?

If I took my daughter in to a doctor and said, "I've heard that she has a 1/9 chance of developing breast cancer sometime during her life. Even though we have no family history of it, just to be safe, can you please remove all her breast tissue?"

I wonder what the doctor would say about it.

[bugmenot]

Originally Posted by japonica

I've never understood this reasoning at all. Amputation as preventative medicine when there's no medical basis for it?

Exactly!

I wonder if the mother is going to remove her son's testicles on account of that he COULD end up with testicular cancer. Actually, you'd better remove the eyelids as well.

Better remove that appendix and spleen as well, since they're "unnecessary."