oh..my...god

[mommariffic]

I am running on near empty with patience

DD has always been a pleasure. She's 3, extremely verbal and we can literally sit and have conversations and I can bring her virtually anywhere [theater, museums, parks and whatever else]

Lately though, my patience is running thin because she's being totally evil.

Disclaimer:She has a new sibling, 3 month old DS. BUT, it's really [and I can say this confidently] a non issue with jealousy, because I have help and she gets mommy/me time throughout each and every day, and I've found a balance. She actually adores her brother

Anyway, so she's basically doing things to intentionally test my level of patience, and she's def winning. I'm a patient person, I can answer the same question a hundred times but there is a point where I snap. And when she's looking at me, grinning, and purposely doing things [like dumping out all the laundry I folded and it took me 2 hrs] I just LOOSE IT. Today she also dumped out a container of beads and we were just sitting there playing with them. No rhyme, no reason. And she grinned after. And when I get bad she goes "mommy, I love you, I know you got mad because I dumped my beads.."

How do I answer to THAT?

These are pretty pathetic examples, but I'm too pooped to think of more concrete ones. I just need suggestions on how to deal with blatant behavior that's meant to test me.

[lach]

It was a wise, wise person who coined the saying:

A three year old is a two year old who has learned how to be an a**hole.

Chin up, Mama. It's a bad age. I hear it gets better by 5, though.

[Oliver'sMom]

Originally Posted by lach

It was a wise, wise person who coined the saying:



Chin up, Mama. It's a bad age. I hear it gets better by 5, though.

I'm on the waiting until 5 boat as well.....only a year and a half of pure frustration and exhaustion to go!!!

[St. Margaret]

Yup, sounds a lot like my 3.5yo-- she's always been so smart and verbal, and typically sooo well-behaved and sweet, and lately she'll have fits of just doing JUST the thing to annoy us. Like, hitting us, tossing things around to make a mess, acting crazy when we are just trying to get her changed or whatnot. It's become an issue b/c DH and I were struggling with patience, but really, saying we see how she's feeling has dampened the episodes SO fast it's amazing. And mostly we figure we got off easy with the 2s and now it's tantrum time, and it'll pass. I'm third tri and we figure it may relate to that (and my being laid up a lot this time) but she's honestly excited and doesn't understand the kids in books who feel angsty about new siblings (oh, she'll learn, I bet, even just a little!) so you never know... but yeah, just the age, too.

[Minxie]

I agree with PPs; she's testing your limits.

[~Boudicca~]

Originally Posted by lach

It was a wise, wise person who coined the saying:



Chin up, Mama. It's a bad age. I hear it gets better by 5, though.

Oh dear, that was BRILLIANT.

[PreggieUBA2C]

This is probably not what you'd most enjoy as a response, but I'll offer it anyway, just in case you would:

Children absolutely must go through this. Gordon Neufeld called it 'counterwill', and it is essential to properly developing one's own (true and healthy) will. Your dd must push against the people/person she most trusts by refusing to do what those people expect. This is so that she can figure out what she wants to do and be, as distinct from those people- an individual. Gabor Mate described the counterwill as the series of "NO!s" that surround the fledgling, lone/individual will, much like landscape fabric encircling the base of a lone/individual sapling in order to protect it while it grows and strengthens.

Children just go along with us to at least some extent, as in they just accept that life is as we present it to them. The choices we 'give' them during these formative years are really not choices in the purest sense; they're 'canned' because they are the options within the life we, as parents, created, that we find acceptable. For a child to truly make a choice, she must be free to choose anything, no matter what the consequences.

If her will is not squelched, she will develop the moderation and self-discipline that allows her to mitigate risk and know that agreeing with someone else's wishes does not reduce or impede her personhood, within reason (which is something else that develops alongside the will).

It is through the process of refusing your wishes and countering your pleas and arguments that she gains the needed confidence in her own judgment, that will allow her to freely agree with you later on. So, if you push back too hard and 'win', you will lose in the long run, and she will lose more.

If you recognise her need for self-individuation from you (whom she trusts implicitly), and both give her that solid, brick wall she needs to push against, while also retaining your own dignity and sense of self, you will have a wonderful relationship in the future, but this phase will also pass so much faster than if you drag it out by refusing what she needs (by giving in completely or by over-shooting and pummeling her will). It's a delicate balance, but being that you are very patient, I'm hoping to encourage you to persist in that way of being through this. I do know that the timing is very difficult, at least from my experience, with babies, toddlers and older children all at various phases of development.

Right now, I have a nearly three yr old who is in counterwill-wonderland and I have found that I can head off a lot of what he needs to accomplish by instigating playful arguments with him. Sometimes I just walk in and say to him, "No it isn't!" and he's right there with "YES IT IS!!!" I'll do this for a while with him, and he finds it hilarious, but it defuses later potential conflicts when he is resistant and I use the same tone to respond, and he laughs, and I express my understanding of what he wants/doesn't want, and my explanation for why I want things the way I do. He is far more open to my requests if he's had a laugh with me.

Today he climbed onto the table during a meal, which we don't do here, and then looked at me with a big grin as if to say, "what are you going to do about it?" I was nursing. I said to him with exaggerated concern, "WHATEVER you do, do NOT sit on the bench! It's full of quills and your bum will look like a porcupine if you do. Do what you want, but I'm just letting you know what could happen if you did..." Then I turned back to my food. He was already descending back toward the bench before I finished speaking, while giggling.

With my children, I deal with counterwill playfully, or when they insist on seriousness, I make straight observations without upset or implicit disapproval, like, "You dumped the laundry on the floor. It's in a pile. I would prefer that it's folded, so I'm going to do that now/later. Would you like to work with me?" If the answer was "no", I would accept that with, "No? Are you sure? (yes) Okay." In this exchange, no matter what configuration I would have to concoct, I would continue the dialogue until I heard a "yes", even if it was only to confirm a negative. It has to be a freely expressed "yes", and I never make issue about it or let on that I was fishing for it. I do this because I want my dc to have the experience of both disagreeing with me and agreeing with me while retaining their own chosen position.

You may have already worked this all out and just feel overwhelmed, but I wanted to share because this is something that I do well in my mothering and there's no sense keeping it a secret. Of course none of this may meet your needs, but you are the only one who could figure out what will, so I offer my encouragement to see this counterwill as a very positive demonstration of a child who is confidently bringing about the conditions she needs to grow and mature.

It's a really super thing, I promise! It's also amazingly entertaining at times.

[titania8]

Preggie- I LOVED that! Thanks for taking the time to post!

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by mommariffic

"mommy, I love you, I know you got mad because I dumped my beads.."

How do I answer to THAT?

My answer would be somewhere along the lines of "You're right, I do love you! AND...it looks like you made quite a mess with those beads. I'm going to set the timer for _____ minutes and I expect you to pick those beads up and put them back in the jar before the timer goes off. Any beads still on the floor when the timer rings will then to belong to me to do with as I wish, including throwing them away. Best get started at picking those up " And then I would walk away.

She's searching for limits and wants to know what the consequences will be. So let her know what the consequences are. If you make a mess it's yours to clean up. If I have to clean it up I keep what I pick up off the floor. She dumps the laundry, she gets to fold it and fix it. (granted she won't fold it as nicely as you did, but if you screw up someone else's work that they completed, the natural consequence should not be that they have to do the work again).

[Needle in the Hay]

I remember that age. Folded laundry is like a freshly raked pile of leaves...same thing with a container full of beads! I wouldn't make one so little be responible for picking up the beads by herself, but setting the timer and making a game of it could work.
I probably would have gone with picking up the beads myself and now she would have to wait until I'm finished before I could do whatever she asked me to while I was picking them up (and that age chances are good they're going to want something).

You know, looking back, I never think I should have been harder on my son, more the opposite, really. 3 is so little and they are still learning. My son didn't fail to learn because I went easy on him about that kind of stuff and he wasn't damaged because I lost my patience sometimes either. I say do the best you can and don't worry that you're raising a little terror. I know it was said tongue-in-cheek, but she is most definitely not being evil!

[joanna0707]

Dumping things on the floor and watching for my reaction was my DS's favorite, when he does it I say with exaggerated concern "Oh no, what a mess!, what am I going to do now!" and I go on like that for a while lamenting, he laughs and then we clean up together. Sometimes he dumps the toys back again and I react the same way. It seems that he's had enough of that lately because he is doing that a lot less than few months ago, it used to happen couple times a day.

ETA: PreggieUBA2C, I have really enjoyed reading your post, thanks.

[mommariffic]

Preggie: I really enjoyed that, and shared it with DH this morning

Thanks to everyone else too. I DO need to be more light hearted but with new babe/little sleep my patience level can wear down. I'm headed now to get a coffee but will write more later!

[PreggieUBA2C]

I enjoyed sharing! The main reason I know this so well is that I had to develop my own counterwill and subsequent maturation as an adult. I know also other adults in this situation and it's very, very hard. It comes with much worse consequences and messes than dumped laundry...

Anyway, take heart. 'Glad you (plural) enjoyed my post.

[mommariffic]

Ok, I started off the day practicing these things but it went downhill

I am on 4 hrs sleep, and at around 4 I just kind of lost it

She was throwing our playdoh containers at the dogs, running up and smacking them, SCREAMING at the top of her lungs, and being incredibly demanding. I set a timer and put her in our window seat for 1 minute, and she sobbed the entire time (breaking my heart) saying "but I LOVE YOU.." and finally I would be like "just stop! just stop saying that because we are not communicating well!" which, hello she's 3 smooth move on that one momma

She is actually sleeping now, so I'm going to play this evening up to waking up/playing hard all day with no sufficient rest period. The issue is not her, it's me feeling so so so so so guilty for not being a 100% patient person. I seriously wanted to walk out of the house and not come back for an hour and I hate that feeling!

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by mommariffic

Ok, I started off the day practicing these things but it went downhill

I am on 4 hrs sleep, and at around 4 I just kind of lost it

She was throwing our playdoh containers at the dogs, running up and smacking them, SCREAMING at the top of her lungs, and being incredibly demanding. I set a timer and put her in our window seat for 1 minute, and she sobbed the entire time (breaking my heart) saying "but I LOVE YOU.." and finally I would be like "just stop! just stop saying that because we are not communicating well!" which, hello she's 3 smooth move on that one momma

She is actually sleeping now, so I'm going to play this evening up to waking up/playing hard all day with no sufficient rest period. The issue is not her, it's me feeling so so so so so guilty for not being a 100% patient person. I seriously wanted to walk out of the house and not come back for an hour and I hate that feeling!

What works for me in a situation such as you described is to gather DS close on my lap (which is difficult 'cause he's a BIG boy!) Then we sit and snuggle together while he sobs out his heart and calms down. We don't use time-out in our house.

Also when I am exasperated with him, I tell him. I might say it playfully or seriously; I might ask for five minutes or ask him to respect my privacy and hide in the bathroom. I have held up my fingers pinched together and said, "I have this much patience right now."

Nothing I say is ever said in a MEAN tone; exasperated, sure. Angry, occasionally, but NEVER MEAN. I think it is good for him to know that everyone has limits and occasionally reaches them, and to learn what responsible adults do when they encounter those limits.

[joensally]

A three year old is a two year old who has learned how to be an a**hole.

This is brilliant. True and funny!

Preggie's absolutely right. What helped me tremendously the two times I went through this stage was to remember they were doing EXACTLY what they were supposed to be doing. By the time DS hit this stage I delighted in the phase - they're hilarious. Challenging, but dynamic, strong, imaginative, wondrous.

Originally Posted by mommariffic

Ok, I started off the day practicing these things but it went downhill

I am on 4 hrs sleep, and at around 4 I just kind of lost it

She was throwing our playdoh containers at the dogs, running up and smacking them, SCREAMING at the top of her lungs, and being incredibly demanding. I set a timer and put her in our window seat for 1 minute, and she sobbed the entire time (breaking my heart) saying "but I LOVE YOU.." and finally I would be like "just stop! just stop saying that because we are not communicating well!" which, hello she's 3 smooth move on that one momma

She is actually sleeping now, so I'm going to play this evening up to waking up/playing hard all day with no sufficient rest period. The issue is not her, it's me feeling so so so so so guilty for not being a 100% patient person. I seriously wanted to walk out of the house and not come back for an hour and I hate that feeling!

No one is a 100% patient. You're being the best parent you know how to be, which is just what your DD needs.

Sleep and food are very important for kids as they're working very hard at growing and growing up. It makes sense that she was out of control when she had depleted reserves, and it makes sense that you found the end of your rope when she was screaming, throwing and smacking. I think we've all had those afternoons. You just learn through experience to try to avoid them. There were times when I tried to have dinner at 430 and bedtime at 5 to avoid the witching hour.

[lach]

Originally Posted by joensally

There were times when I tried to have dinner at 430 and bedtime at 5 to avoid the witching hour.

We have dinner at 4:30 every night. It drives DH sort of crazy on weekends, and my parents insane when they visit, but I'm used to it now. If I hold off on dinner any longer than that, they won't eat anything and mealtime just dissolves into chaos and thrown food and whining. It was something of an "aha" moment when I realized that this was the trick to make late afternoons bearable. It seems like an awful long time for them to go until 7ish the next morning for breakfast, but they don't seem to mind at all. It's actually usually a battle to get DD to eat breakfast, and she's usually not hungry for an hour or two after she wakes up.

DH is English and he pointed out that "tea" is actually the traditional old-fashioned dinner for children, and it's at about 4. If you read old English children's books, the kids have tea in the late afternoon and then go to bed. The parents have a snack at tea and then eat a big dinner later. So there's apparently even precedent for this!

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by lach

We have dinner at 4:30 every night. It drives DH sort of crazy on weekends, and my parents insane when they visit, but I'm used to it now. If I hold off on dinner any longer than that, they won't eat anything and mealtime just dissolves into chaos and thrown food and whining. It was something of an "aha" moment when I realized that this was the trick to make late afternoons bearable. It seems like an awful long time for them to go until 7ish the next morning for breakfast, but they don't seem to mind at all. It's actually usually a battle to get DD to eat breakfast, and she's usually not hungry for an hour or two after she wakes up.

DH is English and he pointed out that "tea" is actually the traditional old-fashioned dinner for children, and it's at about 4. If you read old English children's books, the kids have tea in the late afternoon and then go to bed. The parents have a snack at tea and then eat a big dinner later. So there's apparently even precedent for this!

We have a snack around 4:30 and then dinner at 6. We might have dinner earlier if someone's feeling whiny so that he's free to get in the bed by 6. Occasionally he will wake in the night (before midnight) and be hungry so I keep bananas on the counter; they're not his favorite but he knows that's what he gets for a midnight snack 'cause Mom is off-duty at 7.