2.5 yo attacks my daughter - wwyd?

[Shannie77]

My daughter is 3.5 we have a neighbor and her dd is 2.5. Sometimes they play together nicely ie. Outside or at the park. Now it is getting colder we are going inside more and it is bringing out the worst. My dd is usually really good At sharing. This little girl really pushes her buttons because she will yell mine etc. That gets my DDs back up which leads to the 2.5 yo scratching my dd quite hard. A couple times she bled. My dd will usually cry or just get mad. Luckily she doesn't ever hit etc ( knock on wood!).

The mother uses a combo of timeouts and forced apologies. I find it awkard. I dont want to make the mom feel like I am judging her - I think she is doing the best she can.

I have no clue what to say to dd. I do explain that she needs to ask for help if they are having trouble sharing and use a nice voice so as not to set the friend off.

So wwyd? How would you handle the situation?

Thanks!!

[mooshersmama]

I don't have any advice but I remember 2.5 was difficult for my dd. You may just need to hang in there or take a break from this girl for a few months and things might improve.

[Thalia the Muse]

What does your daughter want to do? Does she like going to play with the other girl, in spite of the arguing and hitting? Or would she rather not play with her? I'd follow her lead.

[Shannie77]

Yes my daughter says she wants to play with her. Perhaps when it happens I should ask her if she wants to keep playing? One time we did go home at my daughters request. The girls had been playing a while, but I felt like the other mom was offended.

I totally feel for her. We both have 4 month old babies, so it has been a big adjustment for her daughter. My DD has just come out of a really difficult phase so I am sympathetic.

I guess my other question is what do you say when someone apologies to you? I mean usually I would say "don't worry about it" or "it's OK", to another adult, but what should I have my DD say?

[Katwoman]

You should teach her to say "Thank you". Our society relies on "that's okay" too much. Honestly, if a person has hurt another person - physically or emotionally - to the point that an apology is offered - or warranted - it's not "okay".

Now I understand it's complicated in this situation by the fact the other mother is forcing the apology. I am extremely uncomfortable in those kinds of situations myself. But I think it's good for your daughter to learn "thank you". If you want to tack on some feedback for the other child like "I know we've been playing a long time and sometimes it's harder to share. Do we want to do x instead?"

I think you should be proud of yourself for leaving when your DD wanted to go. (It's hard when you sense the other parent is angry about it.) In the future perhaps instead of offering to leave every time - which I'm not saying you do - perhaps just offering a different game/story/situation for the girls to keep playing in, with more supervision would be helpful. As would a more limited time with the two DD's playing.

[mooshersmama]

Originally Posted by Katwoman

You should teach her to say "Thank you". Our society relies on "that's okay" too much. Honestly, if a person has hurt another person - physically or emotionally - to the point that an apology is offered - or warranted - it's not "okay".

Now I understand it's complicated in this situation by the fact the other mother is forcing the apology. I am extremely uncomfortable in those kinds of situations myself. But I think it's good for your daughter to learn "thank you". If you want to tack on some feedback for the other child like "I know we've been playing a long time and sometimes it's harder to share. Do we want to do x instead?"

I think you should be proud of yourself for leaving when your DD wanted to go. (It's hard when you sense the other parent is angry about it.) In the future perhaps instead of offering to leave every time - which I'm not saying you do - perhaps just offering a different game/story/situation for the girls to keep playing in, with more supervision would be helpful. As would a more limited time with the two DD's playing.

I agree with all of this!

[Shannie77]

Sometimes I think too hard. Thank you is so obvious but I guess I have never really used that myself or had someone use it when I have apologized, but you are right it is totally appropriate. I feel so much better having some plan for next time it happens.

[nextcommercial]

I do think it's OK if you take matters into your own hands. You can get down on her level and say "I will not let you scratch my daughter!" Say it with conviction, and say it immediately. Then, help her "fix" what she's done. She can follow you to the kitchen while you get a wet paper towel, then she can take the paper towel to your daughter.

It's hard for two preschoolers to share. Especially when the toys really are your daughter's. I bet when they aren't fighting, they have fun!

[sioleabha]

I'd just like to throw in there what I told my daughter, who was having a similar problem recently. Granted, my daughter and her friend are 12, but I think the same advice applies -- if you think your daughter would understand.

These are the things I told my daughter:

1. It's not ok for your friend to treat you this way. No matter what you did to upset her, no matter how good friends you are, it's not ok.

2. You aren't responsible for your friend's behavior, but you are responsible for your own. Make sure that you are being a good friend.

3. When your friend treats you badly, remain calm, and nicely tell your friend that she needs to stop.

4. You do not have to play with anyone who is hurting you or treating you badly. You are not being a bad friend if you walk away from her, and you have every right to stop being her friend if you so choose. For your daughter, I would reinforce that when her friend gets upset, she can come to you for help even before it gets to scratching, and that it's totally ok if she decides to cut the playdate short.

BTW, when someone says "I'm sorry," I think it's customary to say, "I forgive you." That's what I teach my kids, anyway.

[ssh]

I'd probably stop the playdate anytime there is violence. When my DD was younger and did occasional hitting, pushing or throwing sand anytime it happened we left. If the occurrence was mild I'd remind my DD the first time and leave if it happened again. I'd tell her "if you can't play safe (or nice) you can't play". I don't think forced apologies or timeouts work well for violence. Time ins work really well for small toddlers "if you can't play nice, you can sit with mommy". Leaving anytime a child plays in an unsafe manner works too. The other mom shouldn't be offended that your DD doesn't want to be hurt or that you want to teach your DD not to let people hurt her. Maybe if you tell her before hand that anytime there is violence the play date will be over and say it's has to do with being consistent with rules you are teaching your DD. I don't think your DD has to respond to the apology especially if she still hurts. Apologies and responding to them should be spontaneous anyhow. At my DDs preschool the kids check on the slighted or injured child to see if they are ok.

[alfabetsoup]

I've just posted on another thread about this--we've got a neighbour child who is going through a mean phase and has targeted both my girls. We've stopped seeing them as the mom is ineffective at stopping the aggression. It makes me sad because I really like the mom, but my girls are getting hurt too often to keep seeing them. It's really the only thing you can do in the end. If they ask you over or want a playdate just say I don't think the girls are playing that well together right now, why don't we see if we can go to the park? Or similar.

[mama2cal&darby]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

I do think it's OK if you take matters into your own hands. You can get down on her level and say "I will not let you scratch my daughter!" Say it with conviction, and say it immediately. Then, help her "fix" what she's done. She can follow you to the kitchen while you get a wet paper towel, then she can take the paper towel to your daughte!

I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound to me like the OP is asking what she should do with the other child. If the other mother wasn't around I would deal directly with the other shild, but if she is there (and it sounds like she does deal with her own child) I would leave her to it. Personally, I would be uncomfortable if another mother jumped in to deal with my LO when I am present.( I have a neighbour who does this and it drives me NUTS!!)

I also think I would ask my child what she wants to do and wouldn't feel badly if she chose to leave. I think this can be done with grace and should cause no ill will. I would also ask my LO if she wants to take a break from the playdates for a while and honour her feelings.

In terms of what I would have my child *do* I wouldn't have her do anything. I might model saying, "Thank you" after an apology, but I wouldn't try to make her say it if it didn't naturally come. She may not feel very thankful or forgiving in the moment and I would honour that by allowing her to react the way she chooses. At another time I would discuss apologies, but IMO 3 is still pretty young to fully understand the concept.

[bonamarq]

Didn't read all replies so maybe this was covered -

but this is an opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak - it's a great chance for you to teach your child to stand up for herself and use words to solve a problem - prompt your child to TELL the other child what she thinks and how she feels - "That HURTS and I don't like it" and if true 'I want to go home now" -

then you can turn to the mom and say "I know this is an age thing - 2.5 is tough, but this is a great chance to teach natural consequences.... AND GO

You've taught mom a few things and let her 2.5 year old KNOW this is not okay - you've stuck up for your dd and given her skills to deal with this kind of thing -AND you've shown mom Time out doesn't need to be the response to every misbehavior...

If really seemed awkward you could follow up with the mom and reiterate you hold no hard feelings, it's very typical for the age and in the future you may need to keep the playtimes a bit shorter...

[mama2cal&darby]

I agree with the pp and it has just occurred to me that you could let the other mother know ahead of time that you may leave abruptly if the situation arises again, so then it won't be a shock. Again, this can be done very diplomatically, making sure she understands that you are not judging her child or her parenting skills.

[Shannie77]

Bonamarq, I really think leaving when it happens would be best, but honestly I just don't think I could do it (unless my daugther requested it). I would tell someone else to do the same thing but I am one of these people that really has a hard time dealing with anything even remotely confrontational. I agree that I think her daughter would quite quickly see the the connection. I might even feel open to bringing it up with her mom if her mom would talk to me about it. Then it could be a team effort, but if I bring it up I worry no matter how I phrase it she would take it the wrong way.

Today the girls played for 20 mins at our house, and it went pretty well. I think the little girl did try to hit my daughter at one point, but luckily she was out of reach.

shh... My daughter is REALLY good at voicing her opinion. I guess I didn't mention that in my first post! She will say "K I don't like that!!! Please don't scratch me!!!!!!" Oh course she says it in a near yelling voice, but at least she just uses her words.

Thank you all for chiming in. It helps to have a place to talk it out.

[straighthaircurly]

I didn't notice if you said how long these play sessions are. At 2.5 my son could not handle more than 45 minutes to 1 hour of trying to navigate the world of sharing without getting frazzled. Keep the play sessions short.

[MovnMama]

Originally Posted by Katwoman

You should teach her to say "Thank you". Our society relies on "that's okay" too much. Honestly, if a person has hurt another person - physically or emotionally - to the point that an apology is offered - or warranted - it's not "okay".

I just had to post a second opinion on this, and I hope I don't offend. We have taught our 3yo to say "it's okay" if someone apologizes to him and I feel that it's more than appropriate.

For example, my son will be hurt by something, emotionally or physically, say, we accidentally bonked him with a book or something. We promptly apologize, but DS remains upset - mostly because he doesn't know how to react to an apology. We taught him to say "it's okay" or "I forgive you."

If he does say "it's okay," it really is a valid answer. "Okay" implies ambiguity, and he feels this at the moment. Forcing forgiveness is like forcing an apology - as PP have noted, forced apologies aren't really apologies. Likewise, forced or rehearsed responses of forgiveness are just as awkward and not genuine.

By saying "it's okay" he's communicating that he's heard the apology and it's time to stop obsessing, but it doesn't force him to reconcile when he's unready to do so. It's an ambiguous state where he's still upset by the incident, but because an apology is made, it's not really appropriate to continue acting upset. However, he can still feel upset about the incident and it's nonetheless up to him to do the forgiving in any instance.

I do agree that society in general doesn't hold it's members accountable for much of the unacceptable behavior that goes on, however, in this case I think that what's communicated is often exactly what is felt.

[Katwoman]

There is no offense on my part. I think it's all in how a person defines something. I could just never figure out what was "okay". Was the issue/behavior that prompted the apology "okay"? Was the apology "okay" with the person receiving it? Like I said, it's all in terminology. For us a thank you isn't a "I forgive you". A person can't always forgive immediately - even if it was an accident. Forgiveness can take time. So for us a "thank you" isn't all that different from an "it's okay" for your family. Thank you conveys that the person had heard your apology and is acknowledging that you've spoken. No where does it convey how the apologee (what is the right word here?) feels about the incident or the apology.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by straighthaircurly

I didn't notice if you said how long these play sessions are. At 2.5 my son could not handle more than 45 minutes to 1 hour of trying to navigate the world of sharing without getting frazzled. Keep the play sessions short.

My son is quite a bit younger (21mo), but he can only handle certain situations for so long before we need to go somewhere else, or do something else.

Even though its getting cold, is it possible to bundle the kiddos up and go outside anyway? I don't know where you live, but even when its cold out 20-30minutes outside (wearing weather appropriate clothing of course!) can be a really good way to get some energy out. I mean, as long as its not too cold - I'm lucky enough to be able to go out most of the time year-round, but some places it really does get too cold and I totally understand that.

[Tsubaki]

Isn't it pretty common for a 2.5 year old to go through a hitting stage--doesn't it seem likely she'll grow out of it before long as she develops more self control and social grace?

My son went through a hitting stage right at that age, and nothing we did really seemed to curb the behavior, so we took a break from playing with friends very often, especially the one who seemed to frustrate him the most and elicit hitting the most consistently. After a few weeks the behavior was gone, and he learned to take turns with toys really nicely. Now we're going through the same thing with a friend's child who is just at that age and often hits and pushes. My son doesn't doesn't want to play with him much, so my preference is to not get them together too much until the hitter grows out of it. I also second the suggestion about playing at a park where there are no toys to fight over.