Who here has their kid(s) in a gifted magnet school?

[loraxc]

DD, 6 and in first, has at last been tested and did score as gifted. (I don't have the test scores in hand yet, so I don't know more than that.) Where we live, this gives her access to a gifted elementary magnet school (grades 2-5) and a gifted middle school (grades 6-8). In high school, we have an International Baccalaureate program, though this is more of a high-achievers option (I don't think there is an IQ requirement).

Both programs are school-within-a-school. Both are located in poor schools that are otherwise considered "bad." I'm not sure what I think about this; it's interesting.

I would love to hear from anyone who has a kid in a full-time GT magnet. How is the challenge level? How is your kid doing socially? How do you feel about "segregating" him or her?

DD could continue in her present arts charter school through 5th, but now that we know it's an option, we are seriously considering switching her to the magnet next year. Her school has many great aspects, but she is not being challenged there, even with "differentiation" in place.

If we still live here when she hits middle school, I certainly think it's likely we will put her in the gifted magnet then. The schools we are actually zoned for are not at all great. There are, however, gifted pull-outs available if we do not put her in the magnets.

[eclipse]

We homeschool, so my children don't attend a school like this. However, I did as a child. It was a great experience for me, and I was very challenged. I'm not how your schools handle it - but, while we were segregated to some extent, there were plenty of times to interact with the other children in the school - recess and PE, assemblies, field trips with other classes, other classes coming to visit us when we put on plays or other special events, cross-age tutoring in 5th and 6th grade (5th and 6th graders went and helped out in primary classes with kids who were struggling, english learners, etc),etc. There were also kids who lived in the neighborhood in which the school was located in the GATE classes. My school was also located in a "poor" neighborhood in a school with low test scores and a large ESL population (but I was coming from a different "poor" neighborhood with similar schools that just didn't have GATE classes). Anyway, it worked well for me. My only complaint at the time was the long bus ride to and from the school.

[loraxc]

Yes, I think it's similar--she would be with the full school for recess, gym, lunch, etc. I guess I wonder if there is tension between the groups. We are not (at all!) wealthy and DD is not in the least materialistic or status-conscious. However, she is going to be pretty different from the other kids in a family-culture sense. (Well, we are pretty different from most people that way!)

We actually are zoned for the middle school the magnet is in. She could walk, which is awesome. The elementary is not our zoned school, but they provide a bus--as opposed to now, when we have to drive her.

[joensally]

We don't have any gifted magnets, but DD did attend language immersion within a regular school and then attended an arts school. She's now at a school that provides regular pullout and differentiation services, and this is the most gifted services available in the district.

Being in language immersion within a regular school program seems to work fine, particularly if there's attention paid to being inclusive outside of academic programming. DD knew some kids from other settings and certainly played with a diverse range of kids at lunch, recess and after school.

Having read about your situation for the last while, I'd give it a shot. It's great that the middle school is so close to you. It really doesn't sound like the current school offers what your daughter needs. If she completes this year there and transfers to the other school for gr2, could your son still attend the arts school? I remember this being an issue previously.

[loraxc]

If she completes this year there and transfers to the other school for gr2, could your son still attend the arts school? I remember this being an issue previously.

I feel it's unlikely they will let him in if we pull DD. The process is what I would call a nonlottery lottery. They basically admit this. It may be a risk we are forced to take for the good of DD. There are a few other charters he might be able to attend, or we could try to swing private school for K and 1 with the help of grandparents. (That's assuming he tests gifted, too, and could get into the magnets from grade 2 on. If he doesn't....not a good situation.)

I think she will be going to that gifted middle school no matter what. The question is whether that could be a very unwelcome and disastrous shock if we leave her to coast through K-5.

[emmaegbert]

DS (almost 5) just started kindy in a private school for gifted kids. I only ever came on this board in the first place b/c I was having a hard time with the whole idea of testing him, segregating him, etc. Other school options didn't work out anyway, and when we did some school visits he was very clear that this particular school is where he wanted to go. And, I am just thrilled with the experience he's having so far. And he absolutely loves it. However, he is not aware that its a "G&T" sort of school, and I don't think anyone there uses that language with the kids, and there is not a gen-ed population that they share the building with or anything like that to point to some sort of difference. My sense is that if adults don't discuss it much, its not something the kids will really be aware of much at first. But surely by late elementary school they will.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by loraxc

I feel it's unlikely they will let him in if we pull DD. The process is what I would call a nonlottery lottery. They basically admit this. It may be a risk we are forced to take for the good of DD. There are a few other charters he might be able to attend, or we could try to swing private school for K-2 with the help of grandparents. (That's assuming he tests gifted, too. If he doesn't....not a good situation.)

I think she will be going to that gifted middle school no matter what. The question is whether that could be a very unwelcome and disastrous shock if we leave her to coast through K-5.

DD attended an arts school, where they refused to meaningfully differentiate because arts were their focus and took all their energies. That left DD with a lot of free time. She changed schools at the beginning of gr5 as she had checked out entirely - coasting had moved to depressed and frustrated. Gr5 was a huge transition year and gr6 is going much better as she has finally developed some skills that had eluded her. I should have pulled her years ago but always felt like the arts school was the least worst. I had been operating on a number of false assumptions about other schools.

Sorry, I just see a whole lot of parallels in our situations.

I hope you find a good solution that works for you.

[emmaegbert]

Originally Posted by loraxc

we could try to swing private school for K-2 with the help of grandparents. (That's assuming he tests gifted, too. If he doesn't....not a good situation.)

Loraxc, I am not sure where you are, but I know in both places we've lived there is financial aid for private school if you qualify. Right now we are getting 95% tuition covered. Just saying. It doesn't solve any of your immediate problems, but like Joensally said about operating under false assumptions about other schools... one of those might be that everyone (or almost everyone) is paying full tuition for private school.

[loraxc]

Gosh, joensally, it certainly does sound like a very similar situation. First grade is going better for us than K did, I think because her teacher really likes her; they seem to be a good fit. So it feels less urgent than last year, when she was complaining about boredom almost daily. But the core situation does seem to be that academics are not the priority--the (wonderful) arts program is.

emma, yes, it's possible we'd qualify for financial aid at a private school. I have to admit to having some resistance to private schools. It's not as though DS has NO options here--it is a fairly diverse area in terms of school possibilities, and he might score a school choice slot (we tried this for DD and did not get one). But I worry about choosing to potentially shortchange him. He's a typical second child and is much more easygoing and less of an obvious stand-out. It would be easy to fail to meet his needs, because he just isn't a squeaky wheel--whereas DD has been squeaking since birth.

[Aufilia]

I attended a gifted magnet school for a year in elementary school and it was great. I attended 2nd grade only (the next year my family moved). I don't think there was a "regular" population at the school, I think it was all gifted classes, but I'm not 100% sure. But I was still close friends with my friends from 1st grade in my old school. At that age, honestly, I just don't think any of us put any thought into the whole business of "gifted" or not.

Quite on the contrary, though -- in the 4th grade we moved again, and I was in a regular classroom, where I made a number of friends. The next year I was placed in a 4/5/6 grade gifted split within the same school, and my 4th grade friends banded together to shun me. Clearly at that age they were much more aware of gifted/not-gifted as a social division.

Originally Posted by emmaegbert

DS (almost 5) just started kindy in a private school for gifted kids. I only ever came on this board in the first place b/c I was having a hard time with the whole idea of testing him, segregating him, etc. Other school options didn't work out anyway, and when we did some school visits he was very clear that this particular school is where he wanted to go. And, I am just thrilled with the experience he's having so far. And he absolutely loves it.

I hate to distract from the main topic but this is nice to read. I toured a private school for gifted kids here this week, and I was so impressed. I would love to send DD to it (assuming we end up qualifying for large buckets of financial aid, because otherwise it's just not doable).

[waiflywaif]

My kid attends a stand-alone public gifted school. It's been great. Very small and family-feeling, plus it's awesome that it's not "weird" to be academically inclined.

[GranoLLLy-girl]

My dd attends a gifted magnet elementary school. It's the third best public elementary school in our state. Right now--I'm very troubled. I have concerns because recently my h left us and I will have to move. IF I stay in the same area (depending on my work situation) then I can continue to send her to this school BUT I have to find a school that is good for my ds, too. He is 6 and won't be tested until the spring...and even then there is no guarantee that he will be considered for this school. So how do I balance this?
The magnet school offers a full orchestra for dd during school hours (she is a violin prodigy). And this is good for her because we also pay for violin lessons privately and the social interaction and direction of her conductor make the experience blend--which helps her when she plays with adults.

I worry all the time that moving is going to take her away from this school and her music opportunities. It's like opening Pandora's box. There is so much good that comes with her being at this school--but with stbx leaving us, I just don't know how I can find a good place for ds either if we can even afford to continue living in this area.

I guess what I'm saying to the OP is this: if you think that your child will have this experience and it will carry him/her through to junior high/middle school--then by all means, continue the experience...for me, having her there means that anything we do beyond this will bring me guilt as a parent--but then how do I decide what is the best for the three of us as a family?

[ollyoxenfree]

Both of my kids attended a couple of full-time gifted programs. It seems to be fairly common to locate attractive "special" programs in schools in struggling neighbourhoods. I think the school boards have a few reasons. One is purely pragmatic. Since these schools are often under-enrolled, it helps fill up empty classroom space. It's also a bit of social engineering, bringing together diverse socioeconomic families. Parents who commit to sending their children to a special program are often likely to get involved in the programs as volunteers, fundraisers etc. Some of these struggling, under-enrolled schools benefit from the injection of parent enthusiasm, volunteer hours and cash.

We've experienced a few "dual track" schools with a special program running alongside a regular school group (language immersion, gifted, etc.). Some schools are better than others at integrating the different groups. Some parent communities are more tolerant and work together better than others. There can be suspicion and jealousy from the "regular" stream that they are somehow missing out or funds are being unfairly diverted to the "special" group. (A strong, transparent administration that is willing to demonstrate with reports and accounting that this isn't true usually defuses these kinds of grumblings). It helps to talk to other parents about whether there are problems at the school, and whether they affect the students in the classroom. Often this kind of parent political grumbling doesn't really impact on the students, it can just be a little uncomfortable for the parents. OTOH, I've been involved in parent communities that work brilliantly together without this kind of nonsense, so it really depends on the particular community.

A few of the benefits of full-time gifted:
- an understanding and sympathetic administration - no more fighting for differentiation
- knowledgeable and experienced teachers who WANT to work with gifted students and aren't threatened by them, and who have often BTDT when they are meet up with a student who may have 2E challenges, or behavioural issues, or social challenges etc.
- a community of families who can offer support and resources to other parents
- an engaging learning environment with diverse enrichment opportunities to develop different skills
BUT MOST IMPORTANT:
- a larger peer group for gifted students, thus a greater probability of finding mates, being inspired by their passion for different interests, creativity and thirst for knowledge, and avoiding teasing or bullying just for being smart.

The comments about arts schools are interesting. After enjoying full-time elementary and middle school gifted programs, both my kids decided to attend arts programs for high school. I've written elsethread about my concerns that they aren't getting the same academic challenges anymore since they switched to an arts schools. They love their high school, though, and attend happily and enthusiastically, which isn't true of a lot of high school students.

I think teens are better able to look at the big picture and understand if they have to make a compromises at school. It was their choice to attend the arts school, after lots of discussion about what that would mean academically. They understood that their teachers would have to instruct a much wider spectrum of students. They knew that classes would move at a much slower pace, with less depth and breadth. Now, when they are struggling to stay awake in class, they may forget that we anticipated this very situation, but they admit it once we discuss any complaints they have. They understand that they may have to take more responsibility themselves for differentiation if they want greater academic challenges. I think most younger children aren't able to understand the consequences of such a choice or manage these things in the same way that teens can. So I'm fairly satisfied that they have had earlier gifted programming that preserved their enthusiasm for academics and instilled some good learning habits, and later arts education that is helping them develop their talents and support them during the sometimes difficult high school years.

[Freeman]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

It seems to be fairly common to locate attractive "special" programs in schools in struggling neighbourhoods. I think the school boards have a few reasons. One is purely pragmatic. Since these schools are often under-enrolled, it helps fill up empty classroom space. It's also a bit of social engineering, bringing together diverse socioeconomic families. Parents who commit to sending their children to a special program are often likely to get involved in the programs as volunteers, fundraisers etc. Some of these struggling, under-enrolled schools benefit from the injection of parent enthusiasm, volunteer hours and cash.

This what I was going to say; it's a common practice where I am.

[loraxc]

Thank you so much for your thoughts.

So has everyone felt that academics were truly challenging? One concern is that my district seems to ID a lot of kids--I believe 10% are classified as gifted, though of course not all those kids are in the magnets. I think this is because they have two ways to get into the gifted program; one is purely scores (DD has qualified this way) and one is some combination of grades/teacher rec/??? I think they have the second track to help get less-represented kids into the program. To be fair, this is a university city (the university IS the city, IYKWIM) and I imagine there ARE more gifted kids here than in some other places.

[eclipse]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Thank you so much for your thoughts.

So has everyone felt that academics were truly challenging? One concern is that my district seems to ID a lot of kids--I believe 10% are classified as gifted, though of course not all those kids are in the magnets. I think this is because they have two ways to get into the gifted program; one is purely scores (DD has qualified this way) and one is some combination of grades/teacher rec/??? I think they have the second track to help get less-represented kids into the program. To be fair, this is a university city (the university IS the city, IYKWIM) and I imagine there ARE more gifted kids here than in some other places.

The schools I went to actually had two different programs within the GATE program. The larger population of GATE students were the top however many percent (I'm not sure what the numbers were!) and then they had the GATE Seminar program which was the top .5% or so? Something like that. In elementary school, this was two classrooms of 3-6th graders. I think the cap was 20 students per classroom, so approximately 10 students per grade level. It was one of only a few programs for that type of student in the entire city (San Diego, so it wasn't a small district). The larger GATE program had a couple of classrooms per grade level, and many more schools had GATE classrooms in them. The entire GATE program had two ways to qualify, just like the school you're talking about - both via testing and teacher recommendation. The teacher recommendation was designed to catch kids that might be twice exceptional or ESL or otherwise not likely to test well. I believe that the IQ test score cutoff was slightly lower for children that were considered potentially "disadvantaged" in some way. Anyhow, I can't speak to the GATE program at large, but the seminar program was very academically rigorous and we were really able to work at our own pace in many subjects, specifically math and language arts. We also had volunteers that came to teach us piano, foreign language, science, art techniques, journalism (a former student's parent was a newspaper editor and she came to help us put out one newspaper edition a year and actually printed everything professionally and brought in galleys so we could do really layouts and copy editing), etc.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Thank you so much for your thoughts.

So has everyone felt that academics were truly challenging? One concern is that my district seems to ID a lot of kids--I believe 10% are classified as gifted, though of course not all those kids are in the magnets. I think this is because they have two ways to get into the gifted program; one is purely scores (DD has qualified this way) and one is some combination of grades/teacher rec/??? I think they have the second track to help get less-represented kids into the program. To be fair, this is a university city (the university IS the city, IYKWIM) and I imagine there ARE more gifted kids here than in some other places.

I've known profoundly gifted students who remain unchallenged in gifted programs. They are so remarkably advanced that I think there are few school-based programs that would suit them.

I've also known students who struggle with academics due to 2E challenges or interference from behavioural or social issues.

There may still be differentiation required within the gifted classroom. The difference with the regular classroom is that you're more likely to have teachers who are open to the idea and experienced in implementing it.

I've met parents and students who are dissatisfied with gifted programs for one reason or another. Not enough challenge, too much group work, too much independent work and not enough instructor-led rigorous content....I've heard different, almost opposing complaints from people about the same program! It's really important to observe as much as you can and to talk to parents and students who have tried the particular school you are considering. The particular teaching methods and general philosophy may or may not suit your individual child's needs and preferences.

[emmaegbert]

welllll since I have a whole month of experience now that my son's been in kindy a few weeks I can say that at his school there seems to be a big range so far of what the kids came in doing. He's not at the top academically, so I am not sure how those kids are doing, but it seems the teachers are effectively differentiating for the students so far and he is just so challenged and excited about school-type learning (which was NOT his thing before). They so have 15 kids and 2 teachers in their class though.

My sister and I both went to a very competitive magnet (public) gifted school and they really were NOT good at dealing with differentiation for 2E issues (my sister had that problem, was considered "lazy" by the teachers and "dumb" by the kids... yes its nice to be in a school where its okay to be smart, but yikes, kids gave those who were struggling a *really* hard time). The very advanced kids were better accommodated I believe, with pull-out math and independent work for that. I was always at that top for reading in that school and don't remember it being a problem. I think we read independently so we chose our level.

[TiredX2]

Both of my children have been at school-within-a school full time gifted programs. DD is now in junior high where only LA/SS & Science are "gifted".

Originally Posted by loraxc

So has everyone felt that academics were truly challenging? One concern is that my district seems to ID a lot of kids--I believe 10% are classified as gifted, though of course not all those kids are in the magnets. I think this is because they have two ways to get into the gifted program; one is purely scores (DD has qualified this way) and one is some combination of grades/teacher rec/??? I think they have the second track to help get less-represented kids into the program. To be fair, this is a university city (the university IS the city, IYKWIM) and I imagine there ARE more gifted kids here than in some other places.

The full time program here is for those who are top 2-3% on both ability and achievement, so you would expect less than 2-3%, but it is still more. Anyway, DD was been very rarely academically challenged in the last 5 years but has been very happy overall in the program. DS is very happy & comfortable this year, so we are happy with the situation, but the math is still not at the right level. They do basically no differentation within the class--- it is just all advanced equally across the board This year is seeming like a good fit for him, though, so we're happy so far!

[loraxc]

For those who have done this, I'm curious how your friends and family have reacted. I think my family will be negative to the switch and I worry that it will be awkward with local friends, too. I also cringe a bit when I imagine the "Where does your child go to school?" conversations (people will know this school is not our zoned one and will ask further). Not the biggest concern, but it is a concern.