Guided Reading - What kind of learner does that program work for? More info Wanted!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I posted another thread about my DC who has been receiving pull-out intervention at her public school for delayed/reluctant reading. The program the reading specialist uses is Guided Reading.

I want to decline putting DC into that program again this year and am looking for more information about the program in general. My main question is what kind of reader does that program work well for...and, more importantly, what kind of reader does it not work well for?

Any ideas as to why Guided Reading would not work well for a particular child?

DC is in 3rd grade reading at Guided Reading Level I/J, according to the school's assessments. She can read levels closer to K/L/M at home. In case that helps any.

Thanks for your input...

[Parker'smommy]

hmmmm, I used guided reading in my classroom ( 8 years ago....) with ALL of my readers- low, average, high. It's basically reading WITH the child and helping them use their tools to read a book at their instructional level. During guided reading I would help them decipher, decode, look at context clues, and generally "guide" them through reading a book at their instructional level.

I would talk to the teacher about what approaches he/she uses when doing guided reading with your child? I'm not sure why you would want to decline? Are you feeling it is not helping? Making her reading worse?

[KCMichigan]

I would think it would be your right to pull your DC out....but that said, the whole school may be using GR. The intervention group may simply be a smaller group of kids that are at 'that' level.


If you pull your DC and the whole school uses GR, it will be really difficult to place DC in the classroom for GR- the groups will be larger and at a different level. I dont know where they would place your DC for reading time (a different grade?? or by themselves??)

If your school uses a different program instead of GR--then they could fold your DC back into the class, but chances are the whole class will be working at a higher level than 'M'. K-P is 2nd grade level. So intervention would be completely appropriate for a child that is in 3rd grade and reading below a level P. I think it would be frustrating to work at a level above your DC current ability- which is probably what they are doing in the 'non intervention' groups.

There are very few cons of GR reading for the student---it is adaptable for each student and allows the student to work at a level of their ability.

The only true cons are it is a lot of assessment/reassessment and planning for the teacher.

I would suggest that you do after school tutoring in addition to the GR grouping.

GR is the method we used for our students with learning disabilities since it appeals to all types of learners (visual, verbal, etc). It is really a good program if done correctly.

I never worked with a student that did not find some success w/ GR. It is good for small group work and teaching skills to figure out unfamiliar words and use clues to help with comprehension.

Have you looked into her vision? Observed the class? Talked to her teacher? Check on the frequency of the program and how often they reevaluate a student- if she is reading higher at home, maybe they can reassess her. (but for GR- you must both be fluent and be able to answer the comprehension questions to 'move on' a level). Possibly looked at learning disabilities? Does she struggle in other areas (math/writing?)?

Maybe work on some phonics and sights words with the tutor to help?? AFter 2nd grade phonics and sight words are not used---though students reading below a 3rd grade level still can benefit from reinforcing the phonetic rules as well as common sight words.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I don't have the schools GR guide in front of me but the GR program they use has M being the first lowest level for "normal" in 3rd grade. They use an overlapping graph for grade levels. For instance it may be K-P for 2nd but also M-S for 3rd, IYKWIM. If she were accessed at M, I do not think they would provide intervention nor do I think the kids reading at M (assessed at M) are considered behind at DC's school.

They do not use GR in the classroom and seem to focus quite a bit on writing, higher level read-aloud as well as independent reading that is tailored to each child. In the whole-class literacy program, there are kids reading at VASTLY different levels so tailoring to DC would not be a problem. In fact, DC is in the whole-class literacy anyway...she is being pulled from other classes.

I think the GR is not working for DC for a variety of reasons. I think "pressure" really impacts her performance. When she's rolling in a book - she can keep it going for a few pages. When she gets tripped up and feels pressured - it's like she forgets everything.

DC struggles with literacy. She tests high for comprehension and vocabulary.

Reading Reflex worked really well for her. She made major progress this summer.

I have not had her tested for a LD. I did some work with her based on the idea that she may have a mild LD and some of those tips did really help. I don't know what I'm going to do about that question. I'm struggling with that.

What I think is the main issue with DC is that she has spent several years, maybe even, not really trying to learn to read. I think she was "faking it" during independent reading and when I thought she was reading at home. It was a mistake to not be there listening. Now that we're doing that things are moving along. My hope is keeping up with what we're doing at home and skipping the intervention that wasn't working AND providing a quality tutor that we can get her moving along.

Posting before I write a book. :-)

[CarrieMF]

DC is in 3rd grade reading at Guided Reading Level I/J, according to the school's assessments. She can read levels closer to K/L/M at home. In case that helps any.

there is more to reading than just being able to read the words. WHile she may READ levels k/l/m what is her comprehension like? Comprehension will bring her GR level down.

[karne]

**

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by CarrieMF

there is more to reading than just being able to read the words. WHile she may READ levels k/l/m what is her comprehension like? Comprehension will bring her GR level down.

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

DC struggles with literacy. She tests high for comprehension and vocabulary.

Oops... I meant to say she struggles with fluency. High in comprehension and vocab.

[KCMichigan]

HERE is a GR chart for grade levels and a few different GR programs and their 'letter/levels'.

To increase fluency HERE are grade level expectations and ways to increase fluency.

One the best ways to increase fluency is to repeatedly read something and to build sight words.

Does your DC have a speech issue/stutter ? That can influence fluency as well and can be addressed by a SLP.

BUT if a child can read to themselves and answer the comprehension questions and vocabulary---then their independent reading level is actually higher than an oral reading may show. Some kids just read less fluently outloud than they do silently.

If you truly think your DC will do better in the classroom setting, then try it!!!

I dislike the idea that your DC is missing other subjects for the intervention program....it should be done during the reading/Language Arts block. There is no way to make up that other classtime and unless it is a study time, then it is material that is just lost. I would try w/o the intervention for awhile and see how it goes! Sounds like the teacher could easily do reading with children at all levels.

[CarrieMF]

here for guided reading they do both pull out & in class. Pull outs are for kids who are struggling & kids who are ahead.

[Momily]

I'm a special educator, with a lot of general ed experience too. The school I work in now uses Guided Reading as part of their "Balanced Literacy" curriculum. For many kids it works well. For others it plays an important role but needs to be supplemented with targeted intervention in phonics and/or fluency. There's a lot of research out there that says that there's a certain percentage of children who need reading instruction to be more explicit, and it may be that your daughter falls into that category. I would say that, in general, a child who is significantly behind in fluency at 3rd grade, isn't making the progress needed to close the gap, and for whom there isn't a clear explanation such as a lot of missed school, or learning a second language, then a more explicit program should be tried.

I think that outside tutoring makes sense. Look for someone who has specific experience with this kind of program. I'd also consider leaving her in this program, depending on what it replaces during the school day. if it replaces independent reading, then keeping her in Guided Reading probably makes sense.

Good luck!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

HERE [/URL] is a GR chart for grade levels and a few different GR programs and their 'letter/levels'.

DC's school uses a different chart - I don't know why but it's quite different from the chart here.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

To increase fluency HERE are grade level expectations and ways to increase fluency.

One the best ways to increase fluency is to repeatedly read something and to build sight words.

Thanks for that - I will try all of that for sure.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

Does your DC have a speech issue/stutter ? That can influence fluency as well and can be addressed by a SLP.

No, very clear, early language acquisition, no problems at all.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

BUT if a child can read to themselves and answer the comprehension questions and vocabulary---then their independent reading level is actually higher than an oral reading may show. Some kids just read less fluently outloud than they do silently.

I think DC just gets very, very flustered with someone other than me or DH when she reads aloud. I think the small group setting is even worse and even the 1:1 with the specialist is stressful. AND, she tends to get a little tired in school.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

If you truly think your DC will do better in the classroom setting, then try it!!!

I dislike the idea that your DC is missing other subjects for the intervention program....it should be done during the reading/Language Arts block. There is no way to make up that other classtime and unless it is a study time, then it is material that is just lost. I would try w/o the intervention for awhile and see how it goes! Sounds like the teacher could easily do reading with children at all levels.

Thank you and thanks a whole lot for all your other suggestions. All of this really helps to hear. Yes, I agree that missing other subjects is a bad idea (the school does to but this is what works in their schedule). I am going to push to have them give this a try.

Do you know if there is any legal recourse if they were to try to not let me choose that? I hate to go there but I'd rather know going in than sort of return with that if the worse case happens.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

Thank you and thanks a whole lot for all your other suggestions. All of this really helps to hear. Yes, I agree that missing other subjects is a bad idea (the school does to but this is what works in their schedule). I am going to push to have them give this a try.

Do you know if there is any legal recourse if they were to try to not let me choose that? I hate to go there but I'd rather know going in than sort of return with that if the worse case happens.

You should post on the Special Needs Parenting board. You may need a 504 plan.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Momily

There's a lot of research out there that says that there's a certain percentage of children who need reading instruction to be more explicit, and it may be that your daughter falls into that category.

This is DC to a T!!

Originally Posted by Momily

I'd also consider leaving her in this program, depending on what it replaces during the school day. if it replaces independent reading, then keeping her in Guided Reading probably makes sense.

Though I am really starting to feel that the Guided Reading curriculum at the school is not a good fit for DC, I would have very little problem leaving her in if she were pulled out of independent reading. In part because I suspect she's not always that focused during independent reading but also because that is something we can make up for at home.

The plan for now is to pull her from math 2 half-hour sessions/week and PE for a half-hour first thing on Monday morning. That solution seems like a bad one for me.

Thank you EVERYONE!! It really helps to talk to parents and teachers about this. I have a meeting on Tuesday to talk about this and I'd like to be as prepared as I can.

I was actually told at the beginning of the year that DC would not be pulled out (though this was not from the teacher who decides this) and I was SO disappointed at the conference - I cried after.

Also, DC's confidence is finally going back up after the pull-out sessions had really done damage by the end of last year (this was according to the k-2 specialist). I don't want to see her feeling like a bad reader again after a great summer. She really is showing progress. Not only in her reading level -- but, more importantly, in her enjoyment and interest in reading. Breaks my heart.

Pregnancy hormones.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

You should post on the Special Needs Parenting board. You may need a 504 plan.

You can't get a 504 plan for a reading disorder. 504 plans are specifically for children who have disabilities that impact them during the school day but don't impact their ability to master academic content. A child who uses a wheelchair but has no cognitive impairment, a child with diabetes or severe asthma, a child with ADHD whose academic skills aren't impacted -- these are all candidates for a 504. But in this case there may or may not be a disability, but if there is it's in the area of reading. You can't have a reading disability that doesn't impact academics.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

You should post on the Special Needs Parenting board. You may need a 504 plan.

DC has not been identified as a child with a disability.

The tutor she will start with is a trusted friend, principal, reading specialist and all kinds of good stuff.

She is going to evaluate DC and if she recommends we go down the IEP path, we will consider it for sure.

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by Momily

You can't get a 504 plan for a reading disorder. 504 plans are specifically for children who have disabilities that impact them during the school day but don't impact their ability to master academic content. A child who uses a wheelchair but has no cognitive impairment, a child with diabetes or severe asthma, a child with ADHD whose academic skills aren't impacted -- these are all candidates for a 504. But in this case there may or may not be a disability, but if there is it's in the area of reading. You can't have a reading disability that doesn't impact academics.

Ditto this.

If there was any more 'intervention' it most likely would be an evaluation for an IEP for suspected reading disability. At the best, she would get a more 'tailored' program that could provide more explicit instructions, some phonic instruction, and/or some fluency strengthening activities. Most likely if she qualified for an IEP---she would get reading instruction or reading support.

Reading instruction would be a tailored program that could be one on one or in a small group based on specific goals and skills needed. It may include GR or be a completely different program.

Reading support would take the the current program and 'add' to it or make modifications to make it more successful for your DC. (adjusted assignments, class co-taught w/ Spec.Ed teacher, supplemental instruction in addition to the general education program, small group assistance,etc).

They may also provide time to work on other subjects that could be impacted by reading difficulties---extra time, someone to read science/social studies, make sure she understands the written instructions, tests read orally, etc.

I would fight the missing of math class (not that PE is less important, but it is not quite as hard to 'make' up as a math program). Math is a core subject and Math/reading/language arts are all subjects that are sequential and are more easily mastered/improved upon by regular, specific, instruction. If you miss portions of math every day or several days out a week--it will be much harder to understand.

I would also look into vision (if they do an evaluation for learning disabilities they may request a vision exam to rule it out). Many kids with learning disabilities struggle with comprehension and/or vocabulary &/or phonics on top of fluency (though not always). Fluency as a stand alone difficulty may be a visual issue. Does she get headaches? Does she complain of words 'moving' on the pages? Squint a lot?

How is her writing? Spelling? Math? Are any other subjects she struggles with?

Has she had the same teacher for intervention? Sometimes different teachers methods (even within the same program) work better for certain students as well. Not that one teacher is better, rather the 'style' of the teacher is a better fit for that students style of learning.

Good Luck. I dont think there are any repercussions on pulling her out. The worst is you try it and then decide to get a Spec.Ed eval and/or return to the intervention program.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

I would also look into vision (if they do an evaluation for learning disabilities they may request a vision exam to rule it out). Many kids with learning disabilities struggle with comprehension and/or vocabulary &/or phonics on top of fluency (though not always). Fluency as a stand alone difficulty may be a visual issue. Does she get headaches? Does she complain of words 'moving' on the pages? Squint a lot?

She did have vision tested back in Kindy. I think that was standard for all students (vision/hearing tests). I've never noticed that she has trouble with vision (no squinting, enjoys art and stuff) but I'll keep that on the back burner.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

How is her writing? Spelling? Math? Are any other subjects she struggles with?

Her spelling isn't great and her handwriting seems pretty sloppy to me. She was reversing letters until we did a clay alphabet over the summer - that got WAY better. She enjoys writing, writes for pleasure...she has even started writing the 4the Inkheart book. Her spelling was poor but is drastically improving with the Reading Reflex tips. When she is focused and sounding out she does pretty well, imo.

Another big reason I don't want her pulled from math is because she's apparently having some trouble. The teacher just said she is concerned but will need to keep an eye before she can say for sure. One thing did happen that I have been hesitant to mention because I don't want to paint DC's school with a negative brush (we love the school). Her math teacher said she thought that maybe DC did not understand perimeter and area because DC got the answer w/o showing her work. The teacher said maybe DC copied the answer. That very night, I asked DC to do area and perimeter the way they do in in school and she finished it quickly and accurately w/o showing work. I'm kind of bummed that the teacher jumped to those conclusions w/o checking in closer with DC. That said, DC is struggling with time and that is what they started the year off with. We didn't do clay with the numbers and she's still mixing them, which I think is another red flag for the math teacher.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

Has she had the same teacher for intervention? Sometimes different teachers methods (even within the same program) work better for certain students as well. Not that one teacher is better, rather the 'style' of the teacher is a better fit for that students style of learning.

For 2 years she had the same teacher for intervention. I LOVED this teacher but by the end thought she was not a good fit for DC. This year, DC's 2nd grade teacher will do intervention for grades 3-5. I'm fine with that teacher as well, though DC didn't love her like she's loved other teachers. Also, it was with this teacher that DC had her worst year yet...so that's another factor, yea. If it were her 1st grade teacher or the school's 5th grade teacher, I would be less hesitant. These two teachers seem to really get DC.

Thanks again and again for all your time and help!!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

Most likely if she qualified for an IEP---she would get reading instruction or reading support.

Reading instruction would be a tailored program that could be one on one or in a small group based on specific goals and skills needed. It may include GR or be a completely different program.

Reading support would take the the current program and 'add' to it or make modifications to make it more successful for your DC. (adjusted assignments, class co-taught w/ Spec.Ed teacher, supplemental instruction in addition to the general education program, small group assistance,etc).

They may also provide time to work on other subjects that could be impacted by reading difficulties---extra time, someone to read science/social studies, make sure she understands the written instructions, tests read orally, etc.

This is kind of what I imagined. Ironically, I'm taking Intro to Sped myself right now...weird parallel.

Because DC is at a charter and is in a fairly depleted school system, I have little faith that an IEP will help for elementary. The school as small as it is already does make adjustments for all our kids - IEP or not. It's great in that way.

I understand the school may get a bit more money if DC gets an IEP but that won't get the another special-ed teacher, yk? The special-ed teacher is mainly working on Math and we already have a reading intervention teacher for all the grades. I just have a hard time picturing how it will help at this particular school -- especially because it would have to happen during school hours and I really want DC to have a year or 6 months where she isn't pulled out.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

To increase fluency HERE are grade level expectations and ways to increase fluency.

That site is great - just the description of fluency alone is way better than any I've read before. I'm excited to get some tips!!


From the site:

"Methods for increasing reading rate have several common features: 1) students listen to text as they follow along with the book, 2) students follow the print using their fingers as guides, and 3) reading materials are used that students would be unable to read independently."

That is SO interesting. One of the things I really dislike about our school's GR program is that they are really into kids reading books exactly on their independent level. I always thought DC would and does better practicing with slightly harder books. She did better this summer reading more challenging books. And LOOK - this is one of the methods suggested on that site. Cool. It's nice to have some confirmation that my instincts are backed up by some professional opinions.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

Oops... I meant to say she struggles with fluency. High in comprehension and vocab.

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

I think DC just gets very, very flustered with someone other than me or DH when she reads aloud.

Basically, she stumbles over words and sounds bad while reading out loud, but has no problem with reading a book silently. Is that what is going on?

She is a poor speller. She gets math questions correct, but doesn't need/want to write out all the tedious steps. She sounds unsteady while reading out loud, but understands what she reads silently. She has an eye for art.

This is a perfect description of a visual spatial learner. Visual spatial learns are often very poorly served by schools. Most schools are set up with the more common audio sequential learner in mind.

Let me make a few more guesses: She enjoys puzzles or mazes? She is good at building things like legos?

BTW: My very V/S dad was a magazine editor and wrote 3 published books. Dad can't read Dr Suess books out loud to his grandkids with out majorly stumbling over half the words.