Parent conference- kindergarten

[MJB]

I'm having a parent-teacher conference with my kindergartner's teacher next week. He is the only fluent reader in his class (he's at a 3rd/4th grade level, another kid is just starting to read and most can't read at all yet). It's a private school so the class is small and there are two teachers. We are otherwise thrilled with the school but I do want him to be challenged more, at least in reading. What would you ask for in this scenario if you knew the teacher was likely to be receptive to your request? Be specific please!
Thanks!

[jen in co]

We're going through something similar with my DS who is a young K student in our local public school. Our teacher did some basic testing with him on Friday and pegged him around beginning of 3rd grade reading level. He does have 3+ other boys who are all reading at a mid-1st grade - to early 2nd grade level, but none super close to my DS. I think she thought all 4 boys would be closer in level and she could accommodate small differences in level with the take-home books they use. Now that she's done some further testing, she's thinking that she might like my son to go to a 3rd grade (or a high 2nd grade) reading group, but still participate in the high reading group in his class. Her reasoning for this is that he has a small number of phonics-based skills that probably should be back-filled (he's basically a whole language reader and while he can sound stuff out, he so rarely needs to that there are some phonics things he doesn't always recognize right away.) Also, while we spend a lot of time talking about what he's read and asking comprehension type questions, he hasn't had any formal instruction on the type literary analysis he might be expected to do on 3rd grade+ level texts. Finally, he writes like a 5year old He can spell words out loud, but his fine motor skills are no better than average for a just turned 5 year old. He needs to spend more time learning how to write and get better at phonetic spelling, etc. Our school levels readers using the DRA2 testing. The 2nd grade teacher they had test him last week said that he could easily pass the Level 28 (end of 2nd grade test) by giving answers verbally, but to truly pass that test, he's supposed to construct a 2 paragraph summary along with several other short answer written responses -- something that I doubt he'll be able to do by the end of this year (even with a concerted effort on our part).

I appreciate that his teacher is trying...I'm not sure how I feel about him going to a different grade for a reading group where really he can only participate in the reading portion of the group, since he's incapable of doing the writing required. Right now, his teacher is planning on following up with the GT teacher, the reading specialists and some of the 2nd and 3rd grade teachers to see what they think might work. She's also planning to see whether it's possible for him to get accommodations for the written portion of the DRA2 test. Generally, she's used to getting a few kids who read at DRA 6-8 level in K and progress through the first grade levels, but it sounds like she rarely gets a kid like my DS (especially one who is so young). I'd be happy with one-on-one time if that's the best thing and I'd be OK with him going to a 2nd grade classroom (his older sister is in 3rd grade and while she's in a high reading group and GT for math, I still think it would be a bummer for her for her younger K brother to be in one of her friend's reading groups). His reading has accelerated so rapidly over the last 4-6 months (and particularly the last 2 months) that we didn't anticipate he'd be this high...

So, not sure if my story helps, but it might give you some ideas of what to ask for (subject acceleration to a higher grade, 1-on-1 time with a specialist or his primary teacher, etc.)...

[MJB]

I can't really see my not-yet-5 yr. old working with 8-9 yr. olds. I just don't think they would accept him as an equal (and he's not, in most ways). Over 1/4 of his K class is 6 already and he's the only one who's 4 so he's already dealing with being younger than his classmates (well, I think, but he is a little self-conscious about it at times). I will ask about maybe doing reading with 1st graders, though. Also, he wouldn't be happy *missing* any of his own class, I don't think; I'd prefer for him to be able to stay in his classroom. Ideally several of his classmates would just be able to read chapter books all of a sudden.

[Linda on the move]

could he just read books on his own during reading time?

his reading level will naturally develop, there's no reason to push for more instruction, but sitting through other people learning to read sounds very dull to me.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

could he just read books on his own during reading time?

his reading level will naturally develop, there's no reason to push for more instruction, but sitting through other people learning to read sounds very dull to me.

I totally agree.

[Geofizz]

I would suggest you spend some time before the conference about what your goals are for him. You say you would like him challenged. Is there something you are trying to address through a challenge?

We have made the conscious decision that we want our kids happy and engaged in school, but we are ok if they are not progressing at their maximum potential. Yes, DD could have progressed at a faster clip in reading level, but we left her to her own devices in school for 2 years. Instead, our focus was on loving to read. In that time, she learned to love reading and slowly expanded the types of books she'd enjoy. In that time, her reading level also climbed to a point where everyone stopped even trying to figure out what it was.

Conversely, she was not happy and engaged in math. She was withdrawing from the class, announcing that math was easy and boring, and resisting any extension despite begging for "harder math." We addressed this first with a request for differentiation in the classroom, and then an acceleration plan that was finally put in place at the end of second.

[Altair]

I'm a teacher and work with kids with ASDs in K who often have really high reading levels in terms of decoding... but *most* of the time in my experience a child reading quite a few grade levels above average (my general education kids also) are not comprehending at the same level a child at that age would be, if only that the social/emotional inferences get much more sophisticated and most 5 year olds don't understand those types on complex themes. Of course, I meet the exception every so often! (Note: the kids I'm talking about can usually comprehend non-fiction works at higher levels, but may miss some of the bigger themes... but NF isn't as much of a challenge since it is more fact based and doesn't have the social inferencing. They can also usually answer the majority of questions about a fiction text that shows a more surface understanding of the plot.)


So the question is-- what is your reading curriculum? Is it balanced literacy, do they read their own books, or in guided groups, or do they read from a set reader? Balanced literacy with a lot of independent reading time (mixed with strategy groups and guided groups) makes differentiation a non-issue, because everyone is working at their own level. In Strategy groups and guided groups with those kids I would push comprehension through making comic strips to draw out the character thought/speech bubbles, to work out together character motivation and problems brewing and solutions being found. I love acting out books in guided groups too with popsicle stick characters. If a student doesn't have any other readers at their level (which often happens) I'll keep them in strategy groups (when we just learn new strategies and level isn't as important) and we'll do more 1:1 guided reading work, and sometimes I'll do some guided with another student or 2 at the highest level other than that student and work on comprehension issues that they all need.

If the teacher is teaching one curriculum to the whole class, it gets a bit trickier.

Same goes with word study and if they are doing it as one whole group lesson or doing it in centers. Center work is easy to differentiate. If they aren't doing differentiated center work than he can do some extension work while others in the class are doing more basic work.

At the same time, I feel it is to gifted student's advantage to have *some* time where they can feel comfortable with the content being taught and just mentally wander a bit. At least that's what made school livable for me! ;-)

[Freeman]

I'm interested in this thread b/c I initially had similar thoughts regarding my first-grader. However, since he has never complained about being bored with the books he is doing in reading group and has never expressed a desire to read more challenging material during class time, I'm taking an approach similar to Geofizz's so far. I do think his reading level would progress further if he spent time in class on more challenging books, but I'm not sure he would enjoy reading on his own in class as much, and I'm not sure how he would feel about leaving class to go to a different classroom. Now, if he started complaining about being bored, I would take a different approach.

Going to 1st grade for reading group is one idea. Reading on his own during reading instruction time is another idea...What do you think he would like to do? My ds goes to a private school also. Sometimes I catch myself thinking, "Hmmm, I'm paying $ for this, but what is he really learning that's new?" When I think about it, though, I think that even though he could be reading more challenging books and progressing more quickly in math, he is really developing his writing skills this year and, of course, growing socially and learning many other things.

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by Altair

I'm a teacher and work with kids with ASDs in K who often have really high reading levels in terms of decoding... but *most* of the time in my experience a child reading quite a few grade levels above average (my general education kids also) are not comprehending at the same level a child at that age would be, if only that the social/emotional inferences get much more sophisticated and most 5 year olds don't understand those types on complex themes. Of course, I meet the exception every so often! (Note: the kids I'm talking about can usually comprehend non-fiction works at higher levels, but may miss some of the bigger themes... but NF isn't as much of a challenge since it is more fact based and doesn't have the social inferencing. They can also usually answer the majority of questions about a fiction text that shows a more surface understanding of the plot.)


So the question is-- what is your reading curriculum? Is it balanced literacy, do they read their own books, or in guided groups, or do they read from a set reader? Balanced literacy with a lot of independent reading time (mixed with strategy groups and guided groups) makes differentiation a non-issue, because everyone is working at their own level. In Strategy groups and guided groups with those kids I would push comprehension through making comic strips to draw out the character thought/speech bubbles, to work out together character motivation and problems brewing and solutions being found. I love acting out books in guided groups too with popsicle stick characters. If a student doesn't have any other readers at their level (which often happens) I'll keep them in strategy groups (when we just learn new strategies and level isn't as important) and we'll do more 1:1 guided reading work, and sometimes I'll do some guided with another student or 2 at the highest level other than that student and work on comprehension issues that they all need.

If the teacher is teaching one curriculum to the whole class, it gets a bit trickier.

Same goes with word study and if they are doing it as one whole group lesson or doing it in centers. Center work is easy to differentiate. If they aren't doing differentiated center work than he can do some extension work while others in the class are doing more basic work.

At the same time, I feel it is to gifted student's advantage to have *some* time where they can feel comfortable with the content being taught and just mentally wander a bit. At least that's what made school livable for me! ;-)

The above post is a good post!

I have newly 5 yr olds that are reading late 2nd/early 3rd (one is slightly more advanced in terms of attention span and ability to take on harder level material) in terms of vocab/phonics/voice....the PreK teacher stated there is little they can't 'read'. One is suspected of an ASD for years.


BUT that said, both of my girls dont have the 'life experience' to understand some of the 3rd grade stuff in story lines. The social skills and events they have not experienced and therefore dont truly understand or relate to the characters. A lot of comprehension is built on a 'connection' to the text or basis on past knowledge.

They both read A LOT of non-fiction and enjoy it- they read simple Chapter books and we have found some that are age-appropriate (Strawberry Shortcake chapter books, Hello Kitty has come out with mid/late second grade chapter books) but most are simply at a different social level.

I would see what kind of differentiation they do for the whole class and if it is a group based or center based reading program. If it is center based, it will be much much easier to add-in material that is easy to differentiate for him. If it is group- you may have to set up an independent study type program.

For example: in PreK the teacher had my girls do some of the following:

1. read a story independently and tell it back or draw pictures
2. read a familiar book to a buddy
3. read a new book with the teacher and discuss the book- feelings of characters, predict what will happen next,
4.pick a topic and read a series of non-fiction books. Find specific information pre picked by the teacher.
5.Read a familiar story and then add to it (verbally).



They participated in class the whole time, but had different 'expectations' for reading and writing (they both were requested to write in journals---at first just words, but then one DD was asked to write a sentence describing her pic---if she did not comply it was ok, but she was encouraged to and did 9/10 times). It was nice that for reading & math the kids were grouped anyway so it was not hard to differentiate. Some kids were reading simple words, some were just learning letters or sounds.

At that age, it was not emotionally appropriate to place them in with older kids.

I would ask what the teacher had in mind and then try to have some set goals that you have for your DS and work together to blend them!

If possible, maybe have him work with maybe a 1st grader or two. BUt I would not mix an age group past 2 years at that age for social reasons.( as in sending a 4/5 yr old to a 3rd grade classroom for instruction). But one on one reading buddies (a 4th grader with one K) would be beneficial.

[daytripper75]

We have a similar situation and plan to ask to have a 4th grader (as high as our school goes) come to work with dd a couple of times a week. It could be a great situation for both students if done correctly!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by daytripper75

We have a similar situation and plan to ask to have a 4th grader (as high as our school goes) come to work with dd a couple of times a week. It could be a great situation for both students if done correctly!

At the public school my kids attended last year, the kids spent time each week with their "reading buddy." My DD was in 6th and just LOVED the little first grader she was partnered with.

[trini]

My kindergarten son is a very advanced reader, too. I am perfectly fine with him not being challenged in his reading at school. We read tons at home and I challenge him there, without pushing. I just go with his natural inclination.

Your son is 4 and in K. (Not sure of the cut-off at your school so I don't know if you did early entry or he met the cut-off.) Is he growing in other areas? Is he happy? If he is already so far ahead in reading, do you need to challenge him in that right now?

I guess I'm just approaching this from a different philosophy.

I am also a kindergarten teacher.

[Pavlovs]

Originally Posted by MJB

I'm having a parent-teacher conference with my kindergartner's teacher next week. He is the only fluent reader in his class (he's at a 3rd/4th grade level, another kid is just starting to read and most can't read at all yet). It's a private school so the class is small and there are two teachers. We are otherwise thrilled with the school but I do want him to be challenged more, at least in reading. What would you ask for in this scenario if you knew the teacher was likely to be receptive to your request? Be specific please!
Thanks!

For my son who reads a couple of grade levels beyond his actual grade, his teachers in both Kindy and now 1st grade give him books closer to his ability level, but he stays for whole group instruction that is on par with the grade level requirements. So he will be reading a harder book on his own with little to no instruction, but when they learn about things like story mapping, sentence structure, pulling details, and summarizing he stays with his peers because those are skills he needs regardless of his reading level.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Altair

in my experience a child reading quite a few grade levels above average (my general education kids also) are not comprehending at the same level a child at that age would be, if only that the social/emotional inferences get much more sophisticated and most 5 year olds don't understand those types on complex themes. .... In Strategy groups and guided groups with those kids I would push comprehension through making comic strips to draw out the character thought/speech bubbles, to work out together character motivation and problems brewing and solutions being found.

But in neurotypical kids the lag in comprehension is simply age-appropriate maturity informing the interpretation of the literal words. Why does comprehension need to be explicitly taught if it's not actually lagging, if the lags are just relative, due to advanced decoding ability at a tender age? It seems to me that if kids are excited and engaged by what they're reading, they're thinking about it. And simply by thinking about what they read, as they grow older they'll make more and more sophisticated observations and inferences. Sure, it may be fun to do the sorts of things you've described, but in my experience with homeschooled kids who were very precocious readers and did none of that sort of thing, sophisticated understanding of written text comes naturally as they become more sophisticated people.

I simply let my precocious reader eldest read scores of books in her elementary school years. When she entered high school she ended up earning English 12 and Literature 12 (similar to AP English) credits in her 10th grade year, with the top marks in the school.

Miranda

[Altair]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

But in neurotypical kids the lag in comprehension is simply age-appropriate maturity informing the interpretation of the literal words. Why does comprehension need to be explicitly taught if it's not actually lagging, if the lags are just relative, due to advanced decoding ability at a tender age? It seems to me that if kids are excited and engaged by what they're reading, they're thinking about it. And simply by thinking about what they read, as they grow older they'll make more and more sophisticated observations and inferences. Sure, it may be fun to do the sorts of things you've described, but in my experience with homeschooled kids who were very precocious readers and did none of that sort of thing, sophisticated understanding of written text comes naturally as they become more sophisticated people.

I simply let my precocious reader eldest read scores of books in her elementary school years. When she entered high school she ended up earning English 12 and Literature 12 (similar to AP English) credits in her 10th grade year, with the top marks in the school.

Miranda

Well, there is a difference between being able to make those choices for your own child, and being a teacher and being required by your school/district/state/country to show "progress" every year (yes, even K) but even more importantly, answering to parents who want their child's reading level to go up and up when it's the comprehension holding them back. And then I have many kids who want to read the books at their level and want to understand them, and really appreciate the help understanding them. That is, of course, if we're talking about things that are not "sophisticated" themes because they are upsetting (think: Great Gilly Hopkins, I know K kids who could decode it, but that is not appropriate in my mind for a 5 year old.)

I don't think either approach is wrong.

A neurotypical child not given these strategies will most likely still develop into a great reader. However, you can't always assume comp. will come in time following decoding, but they will probably get enough of that work in the following years anyway.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by MJB

I can't really see my not-yet-5 yr. old working with 8-9 yr. olds. I just don't think they would accept him as an equal (and he's not, in most ways).

We homeschool, and DS attends one class at a co-op with kids who are mostly 9-11. He's 5. The first couple of weeks, they were just staring at him because well, he's little even for a 5YO. I've found that after a month or so, though, they don't really care that he's so small. It's become a non-issue. I was surprised because DS is not particularly emotionally advanced, and I anticipated it being difficult, but it hasn't been at all for us.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Altair

Well, there is a difference between being able to make those choices for your own child, and being a teacher and being required by your school/district/state/country to show "progress" every year (yes, even K) but even more importantly, answering to parents who want their child's reading level to go up and up when it's the comprehension holding them back. And then I have many kids who want to read the books at their level and want to understand them, and really appreciate the help understanding them. That is, of course, if we're talking about things that are not "sophisticated" themes because they are upsetting (think: Great Gilly Hopkins, I know K kids who could decode it, but that is not appropriate in my mind for a 5 year old.)

I don't think either approach is wrong.

A neurotypical child not given these strategies will most likely still develop into a great reader. However, you can't always assume comp. will come in time following decoding, but they will probably get enough of that work in the following years anyway.

As a parent and an educator, I'm curious whether you compare developing comprehension activities in literacy vs. numeracy? It seems to me that people often suggest "just let them read" to develop literacy skills. Yet it seems fairly acceptable to assist children with developing numeracy skills and math comprehension, starting with basic counting and then moving on to addition and subtraction, "math facts", skip counting, working with fractions etc. while playing board games or baking or building blocks or any number of math-related activities. Do you see a significant difference between them? As a parent or teacher, is there any reason to distinguish between being more active with one set of skills vs. the other?

[MJB]

Great thoughts, all. Thanks to everyone who responded.
It's hard for me to say what I'm looking for. I don't care if his reading level goes up; I just worry that he will be bored (he has said school is really easy but has not said it is boring yet). He always enjoys being challenged and just loves learning in general. We did start K early and I'm 100% satisfied with that choice.

Reading with much older kids isn't really an option. I think it would be a bad situation socially as he is very concerned with fitting in.

I think I will focus on getting him more challenging reading for his independent reading and more appropriate homework. They Also, he does have a "5th grade buddy" and I'll see if there's some way to use that to his advantage.

The idea of supplementing/challenging him at home doesn't really appeal to me; my kids only have 2-3 hours a day to play together and I think that's more important than doing extra schoolwork.

This is exactly what I was hoping to get out of this thread. Thanks again.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

Yet it seems fairly acceptable to assist children with developing numeracy skills and math comprehension, ...
Do you see a significant difference between them?

I think that for *most* kids, once they have the hang of reading and are reading for pleasure, their comprehension generally continues to go up on its own. Kids who that doesn't happen for are the exception rather than the rule.

One the other hand, math is less likely to develop on it's own. Kids are less likely to "do math for pleasure." Some kids do continue to develop math skills through board games, cooking, etc., but a higher percentage of kids benefit from doing math in order -- learning one skill and then building on it.

Every child is different.

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

We homeschool, and DS attends one class at a co-op with kids who are mostly 9-11. He's 5. The first couple of weeks, they were just staring at him because well, he's little even for a 5YO. I've found that after a month or so, though, they don't really care that he's so small. It's become a non-issue. I was surprised because DS is not particularly emotionally advanced, and I anticipated it being difficult, but it hasn't been at all for us.

Our Montessori school sometimes puts a gifted 5 year or old two in the lower elementary class (ages 6- 9). They do fine. The older kids don't mind working with the little kids. They're also lovely about helping with the little kids.

My 8 year old moved into upper elementary (ages 9-12) in September. (He was actually 7 at the time.) The kids in his class are very good about it. They work together fine. It's not an issue.

Drake spends his playground time with other 7-9 year olds, though. The older kids want to play basketball, not pretend to be ninjas.