Parent conference- kindergarten - Page 2

[loraxc]

most* of the time in my experience a child reading quite a few grade levels above average (my general education kids also) are not comprehending at the same level a child at that age would be, if only that the social/emotional inferences get much more sophisticated and most 5 year olds don't understand those types on complex themes.

This made me bristle a little, because it's been suggested to us before that DD is not "really" reading at the level she appears to be. I agree that she does not have the life/emotional experience to understand things like romance, sophisticated humor, or certain dark themes or implied larger metaphors. However, if given a book on quite a high reading level in terms of vocabulary, sentence structure, and even plot that is not inappropriate in terms of *maturity* (not the same as reading level!) she will do very well with it in terms of comprehension and relating to the story. I usually find that books that meet this description are older classics.

I get this impression that some in education think early readers are robotic one-trick ponies read-ing ay-long with-out thee slight-est comp-re-hen-sion (read in robot voice ). But it's not that she is mechanically decoding words without meaning. She is rather trying very hard to detect meaning, especially when the subject is of interest. She is not 12, with a 12yo's concerns. But neither is she a computer. There is plenty out there that can challenge her without it being inappropriate or confusing, though it may be harder to find. She doesn't have to stay at Henry and Mudge just because emotionally she still relates to Henry and Mudge.

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

As a parent and an educator, I'm curious whether you compare developing comprehension activities in literacy vs. numeracy?

When reading, you can incrementally move to more complex stories, sentence structures, and vocabulary. I occasionally answer questions on the meaning of words, and we often discuss books casually. I will point out things like foreshadowing (and give the literary construct a name), but it requires little explanation, as she's learning through example.

If you continue to fiddle with addition and subtraction, think about it, do stuff independently, you might find your way to multiplication (repeated addition), but you won't find your way naturally to things like algebra. In our case, letting DD fiddle and do math orally through discussion with us brought her to ~5th grade level math without doing much more than talking about math in the 5 minute walk to school. At that point, though, she needed someone to teach her more math, since it had gone so far beyond what she'd learned formally.

Originally Posted by loraxc

This made me bristle a little, because it's been suggested to us before that DD is not "really" reading at the level she appears to be. I agree that she does not have the life/emotional experience to understand things like romance, sophisticated humor, or certain dark themes or implied larger metaphors. However, if given a book on quite a high reading level in terms of vocabulary, sentence structure, and even plot that is not inappropriate in terms of *maturity* (not the same as reading level!) she will do very well with it in terms of comprehension and relating to the story. I usually find that books that meet this description are older classics.

I get this impression that some in education think early readers are robotic one-trick ponies read-ing ay-long with-out thee slight-est comp-re-hen-sion (read in robot voice ). But it's not that she is mechanically decoding words without meaning. She is rather trying very hard to detect meaning, especially when the subject is of interest. She is not 12, with a 12yo's concerns. But neither is she a computer. There is plenty out there that can challenge her without it being inappropriate or confusing, though it may be harder to find. She doesn't have to stay at Henry and Mudge just because emotionally she still relates to Henry and Mudge.

Following on this, DD read the Sister's Grimm series about a year ago. It was clear to me that the reader is meant to identify with the 12 year old, not the 7 year old in the story. However, at age 7, DD clearly identified with the younger sister, often not fully understanding the suspicions of the 12 year old. She certainly got the plot, learned a lot of new words in the process, and broadened her horizons with regards to reading. If she were to read them again in a few years, she'll get a lot more out of them. That's true of just about any book, however, and while the target of the books were certainly for an older child, I wouldn't call them above DD's level if the goal is to be enjoyable. However, they were above her level if you wanted her to interpret the books as intended.

In this way, I do have different goals than a lot of educators. I am confident that the ending place will be a positive. DD will love reading and be able to use it to learn about her world.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

As a parent and an educator, I'm curious whether you compare developing comprehension activities in literacy vs. numeracy? It seems to me that people often suggest "just let them read" to develop literacy skills. Yet it seems fairly acceptable to assist children with developing numeracy skills and math comprehension, starting with basic counting and then moving on to addition and subtraction, "math facts", skip counting, working with fractions etc. while playing board games or baking or building blocks or any number of math-related activities. Do you see a significant difference between them? As a parent or teacher, is there any reason to distinguish between being more active with one set of skills vs. the other?

I do think comprehension work is a good thing-- but a lot of it can come naturally through reading with others, experiencing the world, wanting to delve deeper into a book you loved by role playing the character, etc. Some kids benefit from a little push here just to show what ways there are to authentically respond to literature. I also think "word work" can continue past initial decoding stages, but it doesn't have to be done in any one way.

But, yea I agree that there are many math concepts that one would just not come across in daily life. A lot of kids have a naturally strong number sense, that comes quite easily, and others need to investigate relationships between numbers more and spend more focused time "getting it." I love how Montessori teaches number sense.

Originally Posted by loraxc

This made me bristle a little, because it's been suggested to us before that DD is not "really" reading at the level she appears to be. I agree that she does not have the life/emotional experience to understand things like romance, sophisticated humor, or certain dark themes or implied larger metaphors. However, if given a book on quite a high reading level in terms of vocabulary, sentence structure, and even plot that is not inappropriate in terms of *maturity* (not the same as reading level!) she will do very well with it in terms of comprehension and relating to the story. I usually find that books that meet this description are older classics.

I get this impression that some in education think early readers are robotic one-trick ponies read-ing ay-long with-out thee slight-est comp-re-hen-sion (read in robot voice ). But it's not that she is mechanically decoding words without meaning. She is rather trying very hard to detect meaning, especially when the subject is of interest. She is not 12, with a 12yo's concerns. But neither is she a computer. There is plenty out there that can challenge her without it being inappropriate or confusing, though it may be harder to find. She doesn't have to stay at Henry and Mudge just because emotionally she still relates to Henry and Mudge.

I don't think we think so far apart-- really. I was a very young reader, and I was a classic gifted kid who was mature beyond their years in comprehension and fairness/justice in the world and all that. And I've taught kids with similar backgrounds. But I also think back to the books I read and when I re-read them at a later date I realized the writing between the lines I had missed. I was able to decode the Hobbit a whole lot younger than I was able to infer the Anglo creation story Tolkien was trying to give to the western world. Even Little House in the Big Woods had parts that were lost on me, though I still enjoyed reading and re-reading about the pig's bladder balloon and the yummy hot pig's tail. Didn't quite make any "white flight" connections there!

And I actually think it's generally a good thing for kids to read at, below, and above their levels regularly because each kind of reading gives them something different.

I certainly don't think early decoders are robots.

But... this does remind me of a little girl who is now in 6th grade, but I had her in 2nd grade. Hyperlexic, was reading actually before she could speak (3 years old). She read every single thing she could get her hands on at every moment of the day, apparently including all of her mother's women's magazines. So I was sitting there, teaching a lesson, on my chair with her sitting in the front row on the rug and she suddenly runs her hands up my leg, feels prickles, and loudly announces to the class, "You know, you really should try SUGARING!"

Then cornered me later in the day to break down the merits of sugaring vs traditional waxing vs shaving, creams, electrolysis, etc. Ha.

[loraxc]

But I also think back to the books I read and when I re-read them at a later date I realized the writing between the lines I had missed. I was able to decode the Hobbit a whole lot younger than I was able to infer the Anglo creation story Tolkien was trying to give to the western world.

There are definitely books I plan to try to hold back until I think DD is old enough to "get" more out of them--that I think she is too young for emotionally/thematically. I agree. But it's not the same as saying she can't comprehend at the level she can decode at, you know? That's what I mean. She can, if the content is right. (May not be true for all kids. She isn't one of these kids who can read a college textbook on astrophysics aloud flawlessly. She's a bit lazy about phonics and will still sometimes fudge really long words she's never seen before, unless encouraged to do it slowly and methodically. So her decoding and comprehension are pretty much in the same place, IMO--if the decoding is hard for her, it's because the content has a lot of words she's never seen and is probably over her head.)

[ollyoxenfree]

I don't see any harm from encouraging and assisting some reading comprehension activities in a young reader, and I see benefits. In the same way, I don't see any harm from doing the same kind of "math comprehension" activities that help develop sound number sense, pattern recognition, etc. in a young child beyond the basic math skills, before moving on to more advanced math like algebra, geometry and calculus.

I've been part of a few adult book clubs, as well as a participant in lots of on-line book discussion groups. I find a lot of adult readers read fairly superficially, even though they are fluent readers. They have a surface comprehension of the characters and the plot of a book. They don't notice foreshadowing and don't recognize narrative structure, patterns in plot or symbolism etc. even if they can relate the basics of the story. Similarly, with non-fiction they may question facts presented, but don't challenge the analysis of the writer. I find most of those book discussions, at least the ones that go beyond "what are you reading and did you like it?", are a search for a deeper comprehension.

So I guess there is one level of comprehension, understanding the basic who, what, where, and when of a story, and then there's a different level of comprehension. That deeper level is understanding the why and appreciating the artistry of the novelist or the analysis of the non-fiction author.

Observing how many adults read, I'd say that you can let young readers develop fairly independently from decoding to comprehension and do nothing much more than give them books to read and they can become enthusiastic, functional readers. I think developing the habits of using critical thinking skills with reading often requires more though, in the same way that using critical thinking with math and developing a deeper appreciation of math needs more than learning the basic math used to balance a budget.

Now, I don't think a kindergarten reader has to be able to unpack War and Peace or even The Wizard of Oz. I think, however, delving into stories with a child to develop the habits of reading comprehension will benefit them as they go on to read more complicated books.

[MJB]

So, Ollyoxenfree, what would you ask for in kindergarten?

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

I think, however, delving into stories with a child to develop the habits of reading comprehension will benefit them as they go on to read more complicated books.

I agree, however, I think the obvious place for parents to do this is with read alouds. Once we started reading chapter books out loud, we chatted about them. It all happened quite naturally.

They get far more out of a real conversation than comprehension questions.

[loraxc]

I agree, however, I think the obvious place for parents to do this is with read alouds.

Except then there are kids like mine who refuse to be read aloud to anymore. She's tackling The Secret Garden right now, and while she is ready for it in a lot of ways, I suspect some of it is going over her head. There's a lot of dialect, IIRC. It would be a better read-aloud.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

As a parent and an educator, I'm curious whether you compare developing comprehension activities in literacy vs. numeracy? It seems to me that people often suggest "just let them read" to develop literacy skills.

I don't think that "just let them read" is enough. But the other stuff doesn't need to be explicitly taught exercises in comprehension. It's conversations around the dinner table where we are all expected to be able to defend our interpretations and opinions. It's using a rich vocabulary and grammatical structure when speaking with kids. It's talking about books, movies, plays, poems and articles we've encountered because we're interested in sharing them. It's listening to the radio, to podcasts, to audiobooks. It's reading books aloud and enjoying them together. It's making literary allusions in general conversation. It's about developing a shared library of literary experience within the family that enriches our conversation, our understanding and our general experience.

This is similar to what we do with math. We play games. We talk about math. We share neat tricks we've discovered, or interesting observations about numbers and patterns. We explore math concepts together as interest is expressed (I once spent a fairly tiresome afternoon rolling dice with my younger two as they recorded events for a probability chart they found delightful). We read books aloud together that explore mathematical concepts.

In our unschooled household, it is exactly the same sort of stuff that leads to both mathematical and literacy development: interest-led activities, natural genuine conversation, daily activities and experiences, hobbies, games and projects.

My kids have all chosen, at various ages and stages, to do some semi-structured learning in both math and literacy areas. But in both instances the structure has been adopted at the child's request in order to provide a particular type of desired challenge or to fill a specific perceived deficit. And they certainly haven't chosen to adopt those bits of structure when they were still exploring a wealth of possibilities and natural learning as the result of an early leap in skill development -- like when they've recently leapt to the level of being able to read proper children's novels fluently and easily.

Miranda

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by MJB

So, Ollyoxenfree, what would you ask for in kindergarten?

I didn't answer your question, I'm sorry. By the time I read the thread, I though you had some very good suggestions already. I find the different attitudes toward developing reading vs. math to be intriguing, so I was interested in exploring that a little. I notice that some later replies now suggest a fair amount of comprehension work beyond an initial suggestion to "read more challenging books". Since you are most interested in school-based activities, I think ideas like subject acceleration, working 1-on-1 with a teacher, and reading buddies all have merit.

I understand your concerns about subject acceleration at this stage. Keep it in your backpocket for the future. It worked really well, particularly for my DS when he was in 1st grade. He worked with the 3rd grade class and a brilliant teacher. There were accommodations for the writing aspect. Looking back, I think fitting in with the older students wasn't an issue for a few reasons. He was new at the school anyway, so it wasn't obvious that he was so much younger. He was used to multi-age classrooms because he'd attended Montessori. The teacher was excellent at smoothing his path. By the time the older kids found out he was so young, they had accepted him and they didn't care.

Since subject acceleration isn't the best idea right now, I'd consider whether a special book club would work. It could pull students from a range of grades (maybe kindergarten to 3rd) who are fairly similar in reading level. Since no one would be in their usual class, I think issues about "belonging" would be minimized. It would get students used to multi-age grouping and help prepare for subject acceleration in the future. Book club activities could easily incorporate some of Altair's excellent ideas like animating or dramatizing books.

If none of the teachers wanted to take it on, perhaps there is a librarian or special resource teacher who could, or perhaps an enthusiastic volunteer parent (hint, hint) could make it a project.

Good luck with your meeting!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Except then there are kids like mine who refuse to be read aloud to anymore. She's tackling The Secret Garden right now, and while she is ready for it in a lot of ways, I suspect some of it is going over her head. There's a lot of dialect, IIRC. It would be a better read-aloud.

you might try re-introducing it later when you son is old enough that they can enjoy the same books.

One of my DDs likes to color while I read aloud.

My kids are 12 and 14 and reading a chapter of a good book together at bedtime is a lovely family activity. So much stress is put on reading aloud when kids are little, but as they get older it takes on a whole different importance. With the difficulty of adolescence and the normal drama of kids becoming teens, it's truly wonderful to have those few minutes of peace every day with the kids.

So rather than thinking << kids like mine who refuse to be read aloud to anymore.>> which sounds so permanent, I'd think of it as a phase she is currently going through which she will hopefully outgrow.

[MJB]

So we had the conference and it went pretty well. I really like his teacher and I feel like she is aware of my son's abilities and is working with him on things like independent reading and comprehension 1-on-1. She hasn't yet determined his reading level because he got tired of the leveled tests at the 2nd grade level; she will test him again to try to figure out where he really is, but is guessing it's a lot higher. His handwriting is an area where he is having to work hard, so that eases my concern that he isn't being challenged at all. He will start getting appropriate-level reading homework soon. She also came up with the idea that he could occasionally do a pull-out reading group with a boy from another K class who is also very advanced, which would be great.

So all in all I am happy with our conference and it sounds like my kiddo is having a great year.

[Altair]

Some fun handwriting things to do at home-- buy some new coloring books and try to color in the lines (stopping your stroke at a line is really important for handwriting skills)...

Use a little chalkboard to do the Handwriting Without Tears "Wet, Dry, Try" technique (they practice a letter the right way with a very small piece of wet sponge, then use a small piece of paper towel to dry it in the same sequence, then use a piece of chalk to write the letter over the dried lines)

More finger/hand muscle building activities-- playing with hard clay, picking up small objects for crafts like beads, cutting, tearing paper for collages...

Glad your meeting went well!

[eepster]

Originally Posted by loraxc

This made me bristle a little, because it's been suggested to us before that DD is not "really" reading at the level she appears to be. I agree that she does not have the life/emotional experience to understand things like romance, sophisticated humor, or certain dark themes or implied larger metaphors. However, if given a book on quite a high reading level in terms of vocabulary, sentence structure, and even plot that is not inappropriate in terms of *maturity* (not the same as reading level!) she will do very well with it in terms of comprehension and relating to the story. I usually find that books that meet this description are older classics.

I get this impression that some in education think early readers are robotic one-trick ponies read-ing ay-long with-out thee slight-est comp-re-hen-sion (read in robot voice ). But it's not that she is mechanically decoding words without meaning. She is rather trying very hard to detect meaning, especially when the subject is of interest. She is not 12, with a 12yo's concerns. But neither is she a computer. There is plenty out there that can challenge her without it being inappropriate or confusing, though it may be harder to find. She doesn't have to stay at Henry and Mudge just because emotionally she still relates to Henry and Mudge.

I get the impression that robot reading, as you call it, is very common amongst precocious readers. We were seeing a developmental Dr about some behavior problems DS was having last year. She had DS read to her from a Sesame Street book about colors. The text told the reader to do things like point to a green circle in the illustration. When DS did each of the things the text mentioned, she commented about how that showed comprehension, which reading 3 yo often don't have. Of course this Dr probably see more children with ASD, so tends to view precocious reading with hyperlexia in mind.

I have no idea of what % of kids who read before 4 yo are reading with comprehension vs those that simply read mechanically. Or if there is any relation between how precociously they read and the chances of reading without comprehension (is a reading 2 yo more likely to read mechanically than a reading 3 1/2 yo.)

It certainly isn't a problem for DS though. I would say if he can comprehend something I would say to him verbally, then he can comprehend it in written form (assuming he has decoded it correctly.) Of course, being 4 1/2 yo, there are still things he doesn't comprehend verbally simply b/c he hasn't been exposed to everything, and sometimes gets tripped up by synonymys (I was talking to the pediatrician about how I thought a spot on DS was a new mole, and DS shared that moles live underground and dig in the soil.)

[eepster]

Originally Posted by MJB

So all in all I am happy with our conference and it sounds like my kiddo is having a great year.

[loraxc]

So rather than thinking << kids like mine who refuse to be read aloud to anymore.>> which sounds so permanent, I'd think of it as a phase she is currently going through which she will hopefully outgrow.

Yes, you're probably right. I do continue to ask her and try to interest her, but no dice; it's probably been a year since she stopped wanting to be read to. I would like to continue to read aloud, for sure! I enjoy it a lot, and there are a number of books I would rather introduce as read-alouds. However, I actually dislike being read to myself (like DD, I find it too slow), so I do get it.

She does listen when we read to DS sometimes. As he gets older, there is more crossover.