How would you deal with my 6YO in an UP manner?

[mama2cal&darby]

My nearly 6 YO son has starting acting out in a new way lately. I'll give you an example from last night:

Dinner was ready on the table and I called the kids to come and eat. DS1 came happily saying he knew what we were having by the smell. When he saw that it was spagetti and meatballs ( a meal he really likes) he burst into tears, obviously thinking it was going to be something else. I tried to validate his feelings by saying he must be disappointed that it was not what he thought it was and allowed him to continue crying.

Now in our family we all sit down together and say grace before starting our meal. DS2 was waiting at the table, so I scooped DS1 up (still crying) and brought him to the table so that we could say grace and DS2 could start his meal. Fine. Then DS1 kept shouting that he didn't want this meal and he wanted something else. I kept trying to find out what it was he had thought it was going to be, but I never got an answer- I assume some other type of pasta dish.

Now I won't make another meal just because someone doesn't want what I've made. I always make sure there is something on offer that everyone enjoys.

I kept trying to validate DS1's feelings and we never force anyone to eat anything, but I did let him know that I was not going to make something else.At this point he started to get destructive and went to the pantry and started throwing food on the kitchen floor. It was mostly cans, but a couple of glass jars were dropped (though not broken) I told him the glass could break, so be careful. He dumped a couple of open bags of pasta all over the floor. Once the pantry was pretty much emptied he said he wanted to eat his food now. I told him that he had to clean up the mess with me before he could eat. He balked at this for a bit and I moved his plate of food out of reach because he was going to ignore me and eat it anyway, but in not too long he calmed down and helped me clean up the mess and then happily ate his meal.

All-in-all I feel okay about how I reacted, though I know the only reason it was played out this way is because my DH is away on retreat. He would have gotten angry and probably stopped him before the throwing of the food started. I know he would also have said that it was not fair that I was unable to have my meal and my food was getting cold while I dealt with our DS.

I guess my question here is really for people who follow Unconditional Parenting (or possibly Naomi Aldort). My DS1 and I did get into a bit of a power struggle over him cleaning up before he ate, but it just didn't feel alright to me that he make a big mess and leave it for me to clean up. I remained calm the whole time, but I told him that if he chose to make a mess he was responsible for the clean up. If he had broken glass I guess I would have restrained him.

I should probably add that this type of acting out has happened a few times lately and I pretty much deal with it in the same way each time.

So... what would you do with these episodes?

[mama.monika]

((hugs)) Its always so hard in the moment to focus on what to do. You did a great job.

I personally always have a selection of fruit,snacks etc so that if anyone does not want the meal they can have an alternative. I never make seperate meals for everyone but our house is now sugar and junk food free so the only alternatives are healthy.

I actually had a phone consultation with Naomi last week and she was fantastic!! hehe now I have to try and put it all into action.

[elmh23]

Um, I know nothing about UP (never read it and don't care to) but why did you let him throw all your food on the floor? I think if you had stopped that right away by removing him from the situation (which it sounds like he needed), he would have calmed down without all the power struggle and mess.

As for kids not wanting what I'm serving, we always have PB&J and my almost-6-year old can make it herself.

[NiteNicole]

We had a similar incident last week, well...kinda.

My nearly five year old smelled me cooking something in the kitchen and when she asked if it was what she thought, I said yes and she got very excited. I didn't think to a. tell her it was going into a sauce or b. save any out for her. She was SO excited when dinner started and her little face just fell when she saw what we were actually having (something else she likes, but not what she thought). I could see the tears (she is easily rattled) so I said ok, look, help me write it on my list. We will have just that for dinner next week! She knows we only shop once a week and that I plan ahead and that seemed to satisfy her. She was still disappointed, but we moved on quickly. Also "writing something on the list" has helped her understand that we are out of something now and we will get some next time we shop - so it's shorted out a lot of impending melt downs.

I just can't really imagine her throwing things out of the pantry and my letting her do it. I know you're trying to parent from a particular perspective but I really don't think UP encourages parents to allow that kind of thing (someone here once posted a really wonderful summary of the principles of UP and I can see how there would be wide range of interpretations so I know we may not see it the same way). It's disrespectful, it's wasteful, and now you get to fight with him about cleaning it up. I understand letting him be disappointed and staying calm, but I can't see the value in letting him be destructive and I would imagine this was scary for your other child as well) and then setting up a second power struggle.

I don't mean to be critical because goodness knows my child has done some things that have left me standing there thinking, Ok...now what?

[mamazee]

I am a big fan of Alfie Kohn and UP, and I would have stopped the pantry-messing as soon as it started. UP is about not punishing for doing things, but it isn't about allowing destruction to go on without stopping it. It just means you'd physically stop it from happening and then talk and work through the problem, instead of physically stopping it and then punishing.

[zinemama]

Maybe I don't understand UP as you're practicing it, OP, but what is the value in allowing a 6yo to destroy household property? What does this teach him about appropriate behavior as part of a family group?

I can understand validating feelings. But if my kid started throwing glass jars in the pantry, my response would not be "Glass can break, be careful."

[rabbitmum]

The situation you describe, sounds like something that could easily have happened with my 4 1/2 years old DS too. I think it sounds like you handled it well, but I wouldn't have let my son throw all the food on the floor. You couldn't really be sure that none of the glass would break, and I don't let my son destroy things, pour food on the floor, etc. I would have picked him up and held him on my lap and talked about it.

If he had already thrown stuff on the floor before I had time to stop him, and then sat down to eat, I might have let him eat before he had to tidy it up (and I would have helped him with it), but that is primarily because he is only four, and very uncooperative when hungry. There would have been a much bigger chance of a unproblematic tidy-up after he had eaten. Since your son is older, it might not make such a big difference in his case, unless he was really very hungry?

I would say that I did understand that he was disappointed, but that it is important to learn to control one's temper, so that one doesn't throw and break things, which is not ok - and that he would have to tidy it up after dinner. Then I would try not to focus on it during the meal.

At least this is what I think I would do, but it is not easy to know before you are actually in the situation. I am definately at a loss often enough!

[mama2cal&darby]

I wasn't sure whether to stop the throwing of the food or not.I chose not to remove him because getting physical with him tends to cause the situation to escalate. My hope was that if I let him fully express his upset through the throwing of the food he would have released it and been done. That is pretty much how it went. If anything was being destroyed, I would have stepped in.

I never know how to guide him to express his anger. When I have offered a pillow or mattress to hit it has always been rejected.

I totally understand allowing kids to make themselves something if they don't want the meal (PB&J is rejected by my kids) I don't, in part because they can't make themselves anything they would eat and I always make sure there is something that everyone eats on offer. I knew that my DS likes what I made and that he would would want it eventually, he just seemed to need to express his disappointment that it wasn't what he had expected, KWIM?

[mamazee]

I can see why you decided not to step in, but it sounds like not stepping in created a new power struggle - how the mess would get cleaned up. With my older dd (the spirited one) I've found that stopping problem #1 causes less upset than allowing the problem to continue and creating a problem #2. And yes it can cause upset and an older-child-style tantrum when you stop a behavior, but I'd personally rather muddle through that than set up a situation where I have to enforce something getting cleaned up. Around here, that would absolutely turn into a huge issue. "This mess you made when you were angry? Now it has to be cleaned up." She doesn't flip out over all cleaning, but because it was caused by an angry tantrum, it would bring those emotions back into the clean-up battle. All kids are different, but that would be huge with my dd and it is absolutely easier with her to just not allow it to get that far.

Have you read "How To Talk So Children Will Listen"? The author's last name is Faber. It has good suggestions for ways to verbally deal with some of these types of issues.

[elmh23]

I wonder if he would benefit from knowing in advance what is for dinner? I know my dd really likes knowing so I tell her when we get in the car after school. My kids will tell me what they don't like about the planned meal, but by the time it's served, they're over it and will try a bite of everything on their plate at the very least.

To be fair, he destroyed the pantry. Unless your pantry is small, that would be PITA to put back together.

[ErinYay]

I think it's wonderful that you encourage your kids to be themselves, but I might suggest rethinking encouraging them to act out on their anger. Being upset over the menu for dinner is, in the big picture, a small thing, and I'm not sure physically expressing anger over something like that is a good habit to get into.

Saying, "I'm angry that we're not having xzy!" and either moving on with the evening, or even sulking, is a socially acceptable way to express disappointment. Trashing the pantry is not.

Just as the brain can hardwire itself to feel anger, actions can become hardwired as well. I'm sure you don't want to be the mother of the 20-year-old who punches holes in walls because he's always been encouraged to do whatever he needs to do to express his anger just as much as you don't want to be the mother of a 20-year-old who never expresses emotion because it has been punished out of him.

For the specific incident, could you set up a staple food that your kids can fix themselves, like PB&J, cheese and crackers, etc, for the times that they're not willing to eat what's served? That way you don't have to prepare multiple meals and they can feel empowered over their dinner.

[mama2cal&darby]

I think I may have made the mess sound like a bigger deal than it really was. It took the two of us less than 5 minutes to clean it up and he was totally fine when we were doing it. I probably could have let him do it after dinner, as someone suggested.

I am very interested to hear how others allow their kids to express their emotions. Obviously I would prefer my DS to just tell me he had hoped for something else for dinner, or sulk, but this kind physical acting out is new. He has anxiety problems and has been having a bit of a tough time adjusting to starting grade 1. He is actually doing really well (compared to a year or two ago), but that is where this new acting out is coming from. I told this story from dinner last night as an example only.It could easily have been a different situation entirely- food is not usually a problem area and I'm sure it won't happen again, so I'm not really looking for suggestions about how to handle dinner disappointment.

For the record I don't *encourage* my DS to become physical, I just didn't stop him because I thought that would escalate the situation, as it has befroe.

[NellieKatz]

I see that many are chiming in with not letting him destroy the property by throwing things. I agree with that. I heard some helpful advice on a web site, I think it was called Hand-In-Hand Parenting? Anyway, they suggested (in a different situation, but I think this still applies), intervening, putting up your hand like "stop" or putting your hand between them and what they're destroying, in order to stop them, and then say "I can't let you do that, but I CAN listen to what you have to say" The assumption being that they learn the limits but they also know you are listening to their feelings. And of course after things are calmed down, you have him clean it up. And then later on maybe at bed time, I'd revisit it, like "Tonight it got pretty wild when you threw things in the kitchen; what do you think you could do next time that would be acceptable." or something like that.

On another note, he might be reacting to being forced to say grace when he was in the middle of powerful emotions and needing to be heard. Instead he was being made to take part in the ritual and then mentioning that you weren't going to make anything else (might have felt like a lecture. I am not saying that it WAS, but if he was already upset I can see how this intersection of events might have just escalated his emotions).

Makes me wonder what would have happened if you had just not scooped him up. That probably felt pretty demeaning at his age. You say you scooped him up "so you could say grace," but in truth, you could have said grace without him. You probably scooped him up because you wanted him to be there to complete the family ritual. But it's possible that he felt "saying grace is more important than me."

It's late and I have to get to bed, so I am not really writing very well. I hope this helps; don't feel I'm slamming you or anything....I have been in your shoes many times.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole

I just can't really imagine her throwing things out of the pantry and my letting her do it. I know you're trying to parent from a particular perspective but I really don't think UP encourages parents to allow that kind of thing (someone here once posted a really wonderful summary of the principles of UP and I can see how there would be wide range of interpretations so I know we may not see it the same way). It's disrespectful, it's wasteful, and now you get to fight with him about cleaning it up. I understand letting him be disappointed and staying calm, but I can't see the value in letting him be destructive and I would imagine this was scary for your other child as well) and then setting up a second power struggle.

This. Especially the bolded parts. And especially because we're not even dealing with a toddler here-- we're dealing with a 6 year old who more than likely knew better and was deliberately trying to push your buttons (ie: punish you) while releasing his own anger and disappointment in a destructive way. Allowing him to do this would be, IMO, enabling him to keep on dealing with negative emotions by being rude and destructive.

So in answer to your question, I can't tell you what I would have done in that situation but what I hope I would have done is just empathized/validated his emotions in a sincere way, offered something else to eat that he could possbly fix himself (PB&J?) and I would have nipped the "let's destroy the pantry" thing in the bud immediately.

Also, if it were me there would have been consequences to the destructive behavior if I'd been unable to keep it from happening.

[One_Girl]

Does he cry often when things aren't going his way or is this something that just happened that day? I can't imagine a six year old bursting into tears about what was for dinner unless they are having an incredibly hideous day and they can no longer cope so if my dd started crying over what was for dinner I would scoop her up and cuddle her in the rocking chair and try to get to the bottom of the cause behind the tears. After that we may or may not eat the same dinner depending on how back together she seems to be feeling. I would not allow our household belongings to be thrown around though no matter what I was doing. Throwing heavy cans and glass isn't safe or respectful.

If his tears and explosive behavior tend to happen when he isn't getting his way with you but not with other people then I think you need to look at giving him his way earlier if you know it will come to that so he doesn't continue to have the idea that he has to get explosive to get his way, or redirecting him more firmly away from the tantrum and towards his options. I personally wouldn't want to eat near someone having an extreme fit and I would also not want to have to replace food from my pantry because my child decided to throw it on the ground. UP includes thoughtful boundaries, not an absence of boundaries and in this case I think a boundary was justified.

[Needle in the Hay]

Some kids do this and I totally get what the OP means about escalating the situation.

OP, I think both you and your husband should read The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. I also see nothing wrong with making your son something simple to eat after dinner. It's not worth the power struggle to say you can eat what we're having or else get nothing. Mealtimes should be peaceful. Did he really need to be at the table so you could say grace and start eating? Could he not have had time to stay where he was and calm down? I find it doesn't help my son at all to try to reflect back to him how he's feeling. It makes it worse. Maybe try comforting him without trying to articulate what's bothering him.

Eta: I can think of no age that was more "explosive" than 6. My son is 9 now and is much, much better at keeping a cool head. At age 6 he had all this frustration and didn't know what to do with it. I also found sites with lists of sensory activities helpful ( http://mommypoppins.com/ny-kids/99-s...-for-any-child ) and making sure he got enough protein helped too.

[waiflywaif]

I think I may have made the mess sound like a bigger deal than it really was. It took the two of us less than 5 minutes to clean it up

That's not really the point though. Throwing things in anger in the house is not really acceptable. (Unless it's like your own stuffed animals in your room or something.)

[hakeber]

I think I would have said grace and started dinner with DS2 while DS1 calmed himself, and simply let him know we were starting and he was welcome to join us when he was ready. I think forcing him to the table kicked off the power struggle.

Have you tried PB&J as an alternative?
J/K I think I am getting better at curtailing the tantrums and explosions by not putting my schedule before his needs, but also not waiting for him to be done (because he sort of seemed to delight in having that much control). I think it's important for my DS to learn that life goes on whether he is ready to or not, and he can choose to join in the fun or sulk, but we are not going to postpone the fun until he is ready. So when DS is disappointed that we are going to the park instead of a movie, he can sit and sulk in the car (windows open, in plain sight and ear shot of me) while dd and I play in the sun, and when he is ready he can join us. Or when he is disappointed in dinner he can go sulk in his room, or on my lap even, but we will continue with dinner with or without him. 9 times out of ten, he sees the world is moving on despite his disappointment and he sucks it up and joins in the fun, often with a smile.

I don't know if that's UP. I haven't read enough about it.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by waiflywaif

That's not really the point though. Throwing things in anger in the house is not really acceptable. (Unless it's like your own stuffed animals in your room or something.)

I would agree here. I'd lose all my cool if a child of mine ever even went INTO my pantry univited let alone started destroying the orderliness or, , my food...but I have food issues.

Destructive behavior is just not cool. OTOH I once witnessed my niece who was a pincher and scratcher when she got angry, scratch her own arm when she was told she unequivocally was NOT allowed to scratch her sister or her cousin in my presence or we would turn the car around and she would not be allowed to come to the movie with us. She even asked permission first. It was really disturbing. I suppose if you had a child like that you'd rather they take it out on a couple tin cans than their own bodies, eh?

[happysmileylady]

Like a previous poster mentioned, with my older dd (she's 14 now) I kept a selection of healthy alternatives available to her at all times.

So, in your situation, when the child first rejected the meal, I would have validated the feelings about being upset that dinner wasn't what he thought. Then offered to put his meal in the fridge for later if he wanted and suggested that he make himself something to eat from the options available. We don't say grace so I am not sure how that would fit in there based on your priorities with that. But hopefully that would defuse the situation in advance by allowing him to not eat what he didn't want, but keeping you from having to make something new.

In regards to getting destructive, I would not have allowed that. I do not want my child to learn that it's ok to be destructive just because he's upset. On thing I might have done insted was direct him to his room, where he can have his privace to experience his feelings how he wants. My mom used to say "go throw your fit where I don't have to listen to it." Sometimes when they realize they won't have an audience, they begin to use the more accceptable tools to express anger. Or, I might have simply told him that he could be upset all he wanted, but that it was not acceptable to be destructive, had him clean up whatever mess had started immediately, then left him to figure out how to deal with his emotions all on his own. Sometimes kids do need to figure that out on their own instead of using tools presented to them by their parents.