How would you deal with my 6YO in an UP manner? - Page 3

[EdnaMarie]

my point was that if he hadn't been "scooped up" and forceded to sit at the table to join in the family pre-meal prayer in the middle of his state of funk and disappointment, if he had been allowed to fully "let it out" in the first place in a safe environment on the couch away from everyone, it probably wouldn't have escalated to throwing things anyway.

I agree with you on this. I wasn't replying to you--I was answering the OP directly.

The way you put it, Rebekah, I wonder if the OP's composure might have added to his frustration. I know having my feelings acknowledged in a calm way does not make me feel empathized with, my children, either. It's really irritating to have someone name your feelings and explain what you're thinking, as if you didn't know, LOL! But do nothing about it! Perhaps he is trying to get them to truly understand his emotions, by taking it as far as possible, so that they will REACT.

Maybe in addition to that--"Okay, you are really upset, and we can solve this problem together. Let's pray first and then find a solution."

Maybe being more solution-oriented, and then helping him deal-- e.g. can he put cheese on the spaghetti? Can he deal if you make a plan to have his favorite dish?

In other words, less focus on his feelings as independent of what is happening, and more focus on a solution. Even if you can't make other food (and I don't, either, it will lead to endless, and ultimately fruitless, negotiation and I myself would never end up eating), you can always find a solution, right?

[hakeber]

@EdnaMarie, That is a good point!

[mama2cal&darby]

Originally Posted by hakeber

ITA, my point was that if he hadn't been "scooped up" and forceded to sit at the table to join in the family pre-meal prayer in the middle of his state of funk and disappointment, if he had been allowed to fully "let it out" in the first place in a safe environment on the couch away from everyone, it probably wouldn't have escalated to throwing things anyway.


That's just my read on what I saw in the OP. All the work she had put into VALIDATING his feelings and guiding him to safe place to feel his feelings, was undone in that one action, IMHO. No wonder it escalated. If escalation is what you want to avoid don't undermine your hard work by then saying "Okay, we're moving on and you MUST join us." I think it's very important to say "we're moving on." but by insisting they do to, just belittles the big feelings they are having. IME with kids from 5-18 90% of any negativ emotion is bolstered by the suspicion that no one gets how awful and big and scary and lonely this feeling is. So IMO, when he was forced to suspress the feeling for grace it was like pouring gasoline on a pile of smouldering ashes.

So this was just one example of acting out violently. Maybe another example would help our brains to problem solve what causes the esacalation from "I can't believe it's not Spaghetti!" "I am so full of rage I want to break something.". If it's not got anything to do with our own actions I would ask myself, why does it escalate so quickly and what can I do from the first moment LONG LONG before he gets to the destructive phase of the anger to intervene and redirect to a healthy mode of expression.

This is the OP again. I don't know if you read my last post, but bringing him to the table while we said grace DID NOT ESCALATE ANYTHING. He wasn't *forced* he wasn't being negated, he was lovingly held on my lap -and was fine with it. You may continue to wish to believe that this action undid all my validating, but I can tell you it did not. It was a small moment I obviously should have omitted in my OP, as it was irrelevant.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by mama2cal&darby

This is the OP again. I don't know if you read my last post, but bringing him to the table while we said grace DID NOT ESCALATE ANYTHING. He wasn't *forced* he wasn't being negated, he was lovingly held on my lap -and was fine with it. You may continue to wish to believe that this action undid all my validating, but I can tell you it did not. It was a small moment I obviously should have omitted in my OP, as it was irrelevant.

Oh, okay then. Hope you find a solution.

[EdnaMarie]

Sorry, it is hard to keep in mind all the details of very detailed incidents in these posts in which emotions are so important.

I don't think validation can be "un-did", fwiw... I just agreed that if brought to the table in a state, it would make it worse.

OP, does he usually respond well when you remain calm and use the same validation techniques, or do you think somehow this is not reaching him?

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by mama2cal&darby 
This is the OP again. I don't know if you read my last post, but bringing him to the table while we said grace DID NOT ESCALATE ANYTHING. He wasn't *forced* he wasn't being negated, he was lovingly held on my lap -and was fine with it. You may continue to wish to believe that this action undid all my validating, but I can tell you it did not. It was a small moment I obviously should have omitted in my OP, as it was irrelevant.

 I have a kid kind of like this, so I'll just put in here that while he might have been OK/not escalated when you brought him to the table and sat on your lap, it might have been the trigger to the freak out a few seconds later when he found out he wasn't getting anything else.  I found out the hard way if I try to physically move my kiddo anywhere while he's upset he kind of goes into shut down mode for a minute or so where it *seems* like he's calmed down, but then the very next thing that happens makes him lose it even more - as opposed to letting him do his thing to completion wherever he happens to be (so long as it's safe), even if the rest of us are moving on to something else, and then he really calms down on his own and can work through whatever it is verbally.  If I try to touch him in any way, or intervene in any way when he's in the first stage of a meltdown it makes it 10 times worse and last twice as long as if I just leave him be and let him compose himself. 

So, I'm not dogpiling on you, just agreeing that not bringing him to the table in that state of upset might have prevented the escalation from happening, even though you're saying it happened later and he seemed fine on your lap.  My own kid goes into this catatonic-type state and gets PISSED if I try to hug him through a tantrum or love on him when he's upset.  It's like invalidating his feelings when he's pissed off to say, "I love you anyway" - that's how he sees it - "I'm pissed off and you're going to love me through it?  How insulting - be pissed off with me instead!".  I have ot let him be, and then tackle the issue when he's resolved it on his own.  Otherwise he's on a hair trigger the rest of the day/night and the littlest thing will set him off again. 

I also have to agree that the meltdown from finding out about dinner was not at all about dinner but about whatever stress he had at school the past couple days.  I can always tell when my kiddo is stressed out because he cries at something relatively benign/normal in the evening....like, on Sunday he cried when I left for my choir practice, and then Monday morning he was talking to me about being stressed out about something at school.  For us, when it's a normal/routine thing that makes him break down, there's ALWAYS somethig deeper going on that we have to wait for him to be ready himself to address.   We've learned the hard way that trying to press him to work through anything on our timetable instead of his makes is worse....what we do is put limits on his behaviors so that everyone and everything is safe (physically and emotionally). 

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie 
The way you put it, Rebekah, I wonder if the OP's composure might have added to his frustration. I know having my feelings acknowledged in a calm way does not make me feel empathized with, my children, either. It's really irritating to have someone name your feelings and explain what you're thinking, as if you didn't know, LOL! But do nothing about it! Perhaps he is trying to get them to truly understand his emotions, by taking it as far as possible, so that they will REACT.

Thank you SO much for this.

[MrsBone]

Not sure what UP is, but I'd probably tell my kiddo to go to his room to let out his frustration. When he's cooled down to come back out. I'd even let the mess go until after dinner. However, I probably wouldn't let him have messed up the pantry in the first place. I'm big on time outs though. Not sure if that's UP.

[BeanyMama]

I'm not sure how UP it is, but my reaction probably would have been to repeat what he's saying; i.e "You thought it was something else for sure, and then you came in here and it's different. That was probably annoying." as a way of making him feel heard and validated. My boys respond well to verbal expression and validation, but they're both verbal and audio-minded. They often don't want me to think of a solution or "soothe" them, they just want me to know how upset they are and all I need to do is listen and repeat and understand. It's easy for me to over-think sometimes and mind-scramble for "solutions".

It's okay to feel mad but I think setting guidelines on expressing it should be clear for a six year old; throwing food would be stopped, escalation or not.

I'm with you on the separate meal front! Dinner is dinner here, as well. It sounds like this wasn't quite the real issue though, as you mentioned it's a meal he normally likes.

Edited by BeanyMama - 11/11/10 at 8:37am

[mama2cal&darby]

Originally Posted by MrsBone 

Not sure what UP is, but I'd probably tell my kiddo to go to his room to let out his frustration. When he's cooled down to come back out. I'd even let the mess go until after dinner. However, I probably wouldn't let him have messed up the pantry in the first place. I'm big on time outs though. Not sure if that's UP.

Unconditional Parenting,FWIW, is opposed to time outs and any kind of punishment.
 

[mama2cal&darby]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie 

Sorry, it is hard to keep in mind all the details of very detailed incidents in these posts in which emotions are so important.

I don't think validation can be "un-did", fwiw... I just agreed that if brought to the table in a state, it would make it worse.

OP, does he usually respond well when you remain calm and use the same validation techniques, or do you think somehow this is not reaching him?

I hear what you're saying about remaining calm. It's a tough one. My son (like someone else recently said), doesn't want me to try and find solutions- and there wasn't a solution in this case, as he wasn't really upset about the meal. I certainly try not to be patronizingly calm,KWIM? There is a balance, though, I think, between that and adding my own drama, or, of course, my own anger with the situation. I think there is often a tight-rope to be walked in these situations.
 I think the balance was kept pretty well in this particular incident. ( I'm not referring to the thrown cans, merely my emotional state.)

[mom2happy]

Originally Posted by ErinYay 

I think it's wonderful that you encourage your kids to be themselves, but I might suggest rethinking encouraging them to act out on their anger. Being upset over the menu for dinner is, in the big picture, a small thing, and I'm not sure physically expressing anger over something like that is a good habit to get into.

Saying, "I'm angry that we're not having xzy!" and either moving on with the evening, or even sulking, is a socially acceptable way to express disappointment. Trashing the pantry is not.

Just as the brain can hard wire itself to feel anger, actions can become hardwired as well. I'm sure you don't want to be the mother of the 20-year-old who punches holes in walls because he's always been encouraged to do whatever he needs to do to express his anger just as much as you don't want to be the mother of a 20-year-old who never expresses emotion because it has been punished out of him.

For the specific incident, could you set up a staple food that your kids can fix themselves, like PB&J, cheese and crackers, etc, for the times that they're not willing to eat what's served? That way you don't have to prepare multiple meals and they can feel empowered over their dinner.

I feel the exact same way about this. My DD does the same type of things. She is 7 and cant handle disappointment.

As much as I despise laying my hands on her, when she goes to start wrecking something I hold her down. If she trashes something or doesn't, she gets past the rage in about 15-20 min. If I let her express her anger physically, when would it ever end? The messes would just end up bigger, the behavior more destructive.

My DH's mother let him do those things as a child. She just thought it was anger and that's how he dealt with it. By the time he was a teenager he punched holes through every wall in the house. She just went around hanging pictures everywhere to cover them and yelled at him.

A small child throwing a few cans can turn into a giant man who is capable of MUCH worse.

I'm not criticizing at ALL. I have a DD who doesn't have the impulse control yet to deal with disappointment. A lot of days are struggles. She seems to have inherited DH's personality, but that behavior cant fly here. I'm working as hard and gently as I can to try to help her deal with this. I'm hoping her brain wiring is going to work this glitch out that she seems to be stuck in.

DH still has the same wiring, but has trained himself not to react. It's hard for him because he has to internalize it for lack of a better way. I'm hoping I can help DD as a child deal with this temperament, so that when she is older it will be easier.

[mama2cal&darby]

Yes, this is a very interesting point and makes sense.

[EdnaMarie]

I know what you mean about the tightrope.  It's so hard.

IMO... either this is acceptable or it's not.  If it's not, you really have got to make sure, physically, that he doesn't do it.  Even the unconditional parent would have the right to ask the child to leave the area if it's dangerous to person or property (or both).  There are some boundaries, it's all a matter of where you set them.

If it's okay with you, I don't see what the problem is.  He expressed his anger in that way and that's okay with your family.

To my mind, that is where it's unclear in your post.  I personally see that as a danger, throwing things in anger.  The throws will get faster and more accurate, the things more heavy, and the emotions more intense.  I think it is just a very, very bad idea to let that happen, not to intervene.  If your daughter was in a marriage with a man who threw things, surely you'd tell her to get out right away?  That staying with that is not love, it's submission to abuse?  Even if it didn't hit her this time?

And yet... though of course your son is quite young and such behavior is understandable (if not, to my mind, excusable), you are trying to send him the message that it IS okay, and that you will put up with it because you love him.  You seem to be of two minds.  You want to discourage him from hurting others, but are wondering how to do that unconditionally?  And I think that ultimately, physical danger to you has to be where you accept the child but not the action and ask them to leave the room until they can respect other people's persons.  And if he doesn't go, make him.  No reason to get upset, but by all means, save your stuff and put him in his room.

For the future he needs tools to let his anger out.  If he's a "throw things" type, a punching bag, perhaps?
 

Originally Posted by mama2cal&darby 

I hear what you're saying about remaining calm. It's a tough one. My son (like someone else recently said), doesn't want me to try and find solutions- and there wasn't a solution in this case, as he wasn't really upset about the meal. I certainly try not to be patronizingly calm,KWIM? There is a balance, though, I think, between that and adding my own drama, or, of course, my own anger with the situation. I think there is often a tight-rope to be walked in these situations.
 I think the balance was kept pretty well in this particular incident. ( I'm not referring to the thrown cans, merely my emotional state.)

[EdnaMarie]

Cross-posted.  What about chopping wood?  Would you trust him with a somewhat dull axe?  If he wants to destroy something... I dunno.  Perhaps say he can destroy anything in his own room but yours is off limits?  Paint pictures of what he'd LIKE to destroy?  Write poems about what he'd LIKE to destroy?  I know that for me, personally, I can be very destructive when angry and my mom did tell me it was "what I did with it" but she only gave me the alternative of punching a pillow, which I found to be very unsatisfying, LOL.  My feeling was... I want to hurt something and the pillow doesn't give a rat's ass.

[GuildJenn]

A dull axe is more dangerous because it tends to bounce off stuff into other stuff. But it wouldn't be my first choice for a 6 year old - maybe pulverizing bricks or something.

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie 

Cross-posted.  What about chopping wood?  Would you trust him with a somewhat dull axe?  If he wants to destroy something... I dunno.  Perhaps say he can destroy anything in his own room but yours is off limits?  Paint pictures of what he'd LIKE to destroy?  Write poems about what he'd LIKE to destroy?  I know that for me, personally, I can be very destructive when angry and my mom did tell me it was "what I did with it" but she only gave me the alternative of punching a pillow, which I found to be very unsatisfying, LOL.  My feeling was... I want to hurt something and the pillow doesn't give a rat's ass.

[beanma]

As someone up thread said, I think he sounds like a guy who could use a heads up about what's for supper. I ALWAYS tell my kids in advance. I have a child who does not transition well and she needs to know what's going to happen as much as she can. She does not do well with surprises at all, especially when she was younger. Wrapped presents for example were a touchy point for quite awhile.

Anyway, I've read a lot of Alfie and I don't think he would advocate tearing up the pantry, but I think he would advocate being aware of your triggers and your child's triggers and putting them out there in the open (you don't like surprises too much, we're having spaghetti and meatballs).

If my child was trying to tear stuff up like that I might redirect and give her some newspaper or something like that. For my kids, a big hug and some time on my lap would help defuse the situation, but for another kid that could make it worse.

hth

[swampangel]

Wow!  So many posts on this thread and so interesting!  What struck me most was the validating.  My youngest (4 1/2 ds) gets beyond annoyed when I label his feelings.  What works well for him is a totally different approach.

But I also thought that perhaps brainstorming with him when things are calm and there is no conflict about ways to manage himself when he's feeling those intense feelings.  My youngest really benefits from sitting in our living room and looking through books alone.  It just settles him right down and I've told him that only he knows when he's ready to rejoin the family.  It isn't a time out in the traditional sense, but it's time to take for himself to regroup and let it pass over him.  I definitely think that sitting in the anger and acting out aggressively doesn't help.  
 

Some ideas when angry might be drawing, reading, going into a room and yelling, running in the backyard, kicking a ball, pounding on playdough, etc.  I think that focusing on ways for him to manage those big feelings might be helpful to him.  And I would approach it from the perspective of being curious and looking to him for ideas that he think might work for him.  I'd also be interested in hearing how he manages those big feelings at school.  Maybe he already has some great strategies that might be useful at home.

[mandalamama]

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay 
Eta: I can think of no age that was more "explosive" than 6. My son is 9 now and is much, much better at keeping a cool head. At age 6 he had all this frustration and didn't know what to do with it. I also found sites with lists of sensory activities helpful ( http://mommypoppins.com/ny-kids/99-s...-for-any-child ) and making sure he got enough protein helped too.

grrreat article, thanks for sharing it! my 6-yr-old can get pretty explosive regarding cleaning of any kind, it really seems to help  to guide her through some physical exercises so she can settle herself and not destroy the house in the process.