"meeting needs" or "giving in"?

[P.J.]

I'm posting this in the Toddler forum because most mamas of babies will not have the experience in this area to share:

I'm a new mama, my baby's just 5 months old. He's a high needs baby, so he's relatively fussy and dissatisfied a lot of the time. I've been having disagreements with people (one of them my DH) about when it becomes okay to let a baby/toddler fuss and/or cry / have a tantrum/fit (with loving support, I do not mean leave to CIO) because they want something which is inappropriate or impossible to give them. I guess you could put it this way: when do needs become wants? At what age does fussing become whining or tantruming for things which it's not necessary or even good parenting to give them?

I agree 100% that it's impossible to spoil a baby. So at this point I always jump in to help relieve DS of his frustration when it gets to a level I feel is too much (a little frustration is part of development and esp. with a HN baby impossible to avoid). But I know at some point I need to start letting him feel "negative" feelings and not give him every single thing he asks for, for example when he's 2 years old and decides he wants a load of sugar at the supermarket, stuff like that. I've heard that at around 6-8 months babies start to understand cause and effect more. I can't stand when people use the word manipulative and baby together, because that's not what it is. But when they start crying or whining for things which it's okay not to give them. When does that start happening?

At what age did you start having to set these sorts of limits and rather than do whatever it took to make your baby or toddler happy again, be there as a loving presence and talk to them about how it's okay to be mad but they just can't have xyz right now,etc ? I mean, I already have to sometimes take something out of his hands that's unsafe and to stop him screaming I'll use distraction, so I guess that's similar. But I am sick of people telling me I should wait longer before going to him. I just wonder when the time will be that I really do need to just let him be unhappy about things and help him deal with it rather than give in and give him every single thing he wants. Someone in my HN Baby group mentioned +/- 1 year this starts happening, and that sounds right. Your experiences would help me a lot in understanding this. TIA!

p.s. Please excuse the long post, TY if you've read this far.

[prothyraia]

I think that setting an arbitrary age is unnecessary. Life will intervene and do it for you. At some point, your child is going to want something that it is either impossible for you to provide, or unhealthy for you to provide. That starts pretty early. The older (and more mobile, and more independent) they get, the more it happens.

So, yeah, I think around a year it happens more frequently. But there's really never a need to intentionally increase a baby or small child's frustration level by setting limits just to make a point. Life is frustrating enough and involves enough limits already!

Fine tuning this really seems to come into play around the point that parents start to set limits based on their *own* wants, and I think that varies too much from person to person to really say. Because there comes a point when I start to weigh my desire to keep my butt on the couch and keep studying a little more heavily vs. I Need A Snack Right Now Mommy! than I would with a tiny baby. But I feel like that's more of a balancing act than anything else (how much they NEED whatever it is can vary from day to day depending on what else is going on in life) and is about how much my deferred needs are building up just as much as it is about their developmental stage.

On a somewhat related note, I've found it really helpful to think of whining and tantrums not as manipulative attempts to get something out of me, but as (annoying) attempts to communicate the strength of a feeling. So those sorts of behaviors become valid attempts to tell me how they feel (which I can then reflect back and empathize with) instead of sneaky attempts to manipulate me that I need to resent, ignore, or stamp out.

[jellybeanmumma]

I'd say go with your instincts. DS is 15 mo and super high needs. In the last few months we've had to do some in arms crying because his will is strong and distraction doesn't always work. We've become very good at creating safe places for him that have very few no's but sometimes there is no choice. IMO babies should always be held when they are crying and are easier to distract, toddlers should be close but may not want to be held. DS will often blow off steam after a frustrating day and that involves loud tantrum like episodes but one of us is always right next to him letting him know it is ok that we love him and the cranky is better out than in. Unless the person advising you has a high needs bub then its probably best to ignore it unless it resonates with you as these kids are in a class of their own. A loving parent has to keep their child safe - be that from sugar, roads, etc. Distraction and creativity are great tools - taking time to sit and explore or play with something different or teach them safely about the object you are worried about (eg we've taught DS to help pass kindling as we light the fire which stops him trying to get too close. Hope that helps its late here so not far off bed! oh yeah the book Playful Parenting helped me with tantrums and how to sit with them.

[crunchy_mommy]

I have always done everything possible to settle my high-needs DS (20 months now) -- but I have my own limits. It was easier at that age because I mostly held him all the time or wore him but now that he's bigger it's a strain on my body to ALWAYS be holding him. So if DS is fussing because he wants me to hold him & I ABSOLUTELY HAVE to finish dinner or my back feels like it's about to give out, I put him down, but that doesn't mean I just let him cry until I'm done, I usually try to give him little tasks or entertain him. It doesn't always work but at least he knows I'm trying I guess... Same with nursing, up until about 18 months I always BF on demand (with a few exceptions of trying to distract him for 5 more minutes while I finished shopping or something -- he nursed several times an hour)... but around 18 months he started sometimes accepting food or water in place of nursing or I was able to hold him off just a little longer -- I could just tell that he no longer NEEDED to nurse on demand (though he still wanted to) so I slowly started trying other options, though he still nurses very frequently, I would hesitate to deny a child that doesn't nurse many times an hour!! So... I don't know how well I'm answering your question. There is a big difference between needs & wants but I don't think that at 5 months old there are many 'wants' yet -- everything is still a need (either physically or developmentally or whatever)... There's no magical age where this ceases to be true but as they get older (I'd say somewhere between 9-15 months) there will start to be more 'wants' and no, I don't think you need to 'give in' to every single want. For ex, DS always wants to play with scissors but there are times I can't adequately supervise him, so the scissors get put away even though he'll still whine for them. I try hard to indulge most of his 'wants' as well because I believe it's important for his development to experiment etc. but he can now understand concepts such as "not yet" or "1 minute" or "that's Daddy's beer glass, you can't have any" so that makes it easier. Am I making sense at all? I think as your baby gets older, probably closer to age 1, you'll naturally start to recognize instances where you don't HAVE to satisfy his wants or calm him down because other factors (safety, hygiene, more pressing needs such as you going to the bathroom!) take precedence, and he will be more able to adapt to, say, standing next to you instead of being in your arms while you go to the bathroom, or having to wait an extra minute or two to nurse, or whatever. This is complex to explain so I hope I helped at least a little lol...

[shnitzel]

I don't think it is an age, it has more to do with what the want is.
I still give in to my 16 mo old DD's needs for food, warmth, being held, having attention and don't give into her wants for things like lollipops, crossing the street by herself, climbing on the table, not wearing clothing/changing diapers.
Trust me you will know the first time it is appropriate to say no to your child even if it will make them cry.

[Novus]

Originally Posted by shnitzel

I don't think it is an age, it has more to do with what the want is.

There are certain desires that are wants, regardless of age, I think. For instance, if a 5-month-old is fussing because he sees shiny scissors on the table and he wants to play with them, just the fact that he's 5 months old doesn't make playing with scissors a need. Our response to wanting things that we just can't give him has always been to tell him he can't have it, give a simple explanation, and then move on: "I'm sorry, you can't have the scissors because they're sharp, but here's your train instead!" And we physically move him or the object because it's so much easier to distract him when it isn't right in front of him!

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by shnitzel

I don't think it is an age, it has more to do with what the want is.
I still give in to my 16 mo old DD's needs for food, warmth, being held, having attention and don't give into her wants for things like lollipops, crossing the street by herself, climbing on the table, not wearing clothing/changing diapers.
Trust me you will know the first time it is appropriate to say no to your child even if it will make them cry.

OK that is exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't put into words.

[physmom]

I agree with a lot of what PP's have said. It's really been a gradual process from the stage of needs/wants being the same thing to now where she has needs and she has wants. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. We try to respect her desires as much as possible BUT when she asks me to magically make more airplanes appear in the sky I just can't comply (Yes, we have had tantrums over that... more than once!).

I should say that even at that age DD had some wants that couldn't be fulfilled. Around 4 months she showed a huge interest in food but we didn't let her try solids until 6 months (didn't matter in the long run she HATED them and didn't starting eating them for real until 12 months). Anyways, we couldn't fulfill that desire of hers but we would pretend to feed her instead and she loved being part of it, even if it was us just sticking an empty spoon in her mouth now and then.

Ugh, and I HATE the manipulative comments. Sheesh, these poor kids are still figuring out the world around them. They do NOT have some secret master plan to make parents' lives miserable. Sure, DD figured out that crying did get her what she wanted for awhile but the second that signing caught on she figured out that that worked MUCH better and she got what she wanted quicker! Of course, she still cries but like PP's said she's showing how sever her need is. She's pretty quirky when it comes to clothes and she's a kid who likes wearing hats/mittens a good portion of the time inside the house. That certainly can lead to a full out tantrums if I can't find them soon enough but it's not like she's trying to upset me she's just letting me know how important that is to her.

[lizzylou]

I agree that there is not an arbitrary age. You will just know, on a case-by-case basis.

If people have differing views of this and other issues, I wouldn't really discuss it with them - at least not right now while you are still figuring things out and experiencing various things for the first time. Once you've been there done that you can put their protests to rest just by virtue of your own experience.

[Summersquash]

Originally Posted by physmom

I agree with a lot of what PP's have said. It's really been a gradual process from the stage of needs/wants being the same thing to now where she has needs and she has wants. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. We try to respect her desires as much as possible BUT when she asks me to magically make more airplanes appear in the sky I just can't comply (Yes, we have had tantrums over that... more than once!).

I can laugh, because DD had a tantrum yesterday morning because I couldn't turn off the sun so she could look at her jack o'lantern.

I agree with everyone else, it is just a gradual process. Every once in a while, there aren't going to be any more bananas, or you can't turn off the sun, or Grandpa has to leave, etc.

I also try to say "yes" as much as I can to the little things that are important to her that aren't as important to me. I want her to be happy and she is going to hear "no" quite a bit just because of the nonsense that toddlers want to do. Also, I sometimes try to figure out another way to make the thing she is looking for happen. For example, if she wants to bounce, I will get out the bosu ball and hold her hands as she bounces on that rather than having her bounce on my couch.

[kismetbaby]

I agree with the previous posters, but also wanted to add that when it comes to frustration, I do think there can be "good" frustration. . .it's all a matter of you being tuned into your LO and knowing which is "good" and "bad" frustration. Of course you can't give a baby a knife (my DS is constantly begging for knives when I am in the kitchen cooking and getting pissed when I won't give him one, although I do sometimes give him a butter knife to experiment with), but I am thinking of when my DS was younger. . ..he was fairly high needs and hated his tummy-time. So basically I never had him stay on his tummy for more than 5 min b/c I couldn't stand to hear his complaining about it (I always just wanted to rush in and comfort him), but then I was around a BTDT mom and she pointed out that he was not crying in pain or misery, but was rather working through some learning and may need to be a little frustrated in order to learn a new skill. I thought she really had a point, so I started paying more attention and letting him fuss a bit during tummy-time and only rescuing him when the tone of his complaining changed to "I really don't want to be doing this anymore".

I have found that my son does get frustrated as he reaches a new milestone and I can't always fix this. . .I just have to let him get through it. . .and of course I am right there with him.

Hope that made sense. I hate hearing my LO cry and I hate it when people say babies are being manipulative. When he was a newborn my doula said to me, "there isn't a difference btw a want and a need for a baby." I took that to heart, but as he is becoming a toddler, there are certainly things he wants that he can't have.

[bodhitree]

I think for a 5mo, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to frame it in terms of manipulation/giving in. But when DD was that age, there were things she wanted that I didn't give her (dangerous objects, solid foods, etc). You do have a lot more choices than either to let your child cry in frustration or give them whatever they want. For a good long time, distraction and redirection are going to be your best tactics. The baby wants to play with scissors? "Sorry, sweetie, those are just for Mama, not for Baby. Let's go play with your blocks instead!" That does not constitute giving in or allowing yourself to be manipulated. You're just doing what works best and is kindest for the developmental stage your child is in. Distraction and redirection have been working beautifully at our house for at least a year (DD is 18mo), and they show no signs of becoming obsolete anytime soon.

And I agree 100% with previous posters who said it is never necessary to deliberately create or facilitate frustration for your child so that they can learn how to deal with it. If you have reasonable boundaries as a parent (i.e., no playing with scissors, no coloring on the walls, sorry but I can't magically make airplanes appear or turn off the sun ) they will naturally and inevitably experience enough frustration to learn how to deal with it.

[blizzard_babe]

Originally Posted by physmom

We try to respect her desires as much as possible BUT when she asks me to magically make more airplanes appear in the sky I just can't comply (Yes, we have had tantrums over that... more than once!).

We are similarly evil here. The school buses that run by our house every morning cease their parade at around 9am. DS has thrown tantrums because we have been unable to make them reappear...

But it's a pretty natural transition, and it kind of becomes obvious. I mean, when a toddler is crying because he's hungry, that's a need. When he's crying because he's not allowed to chase the roommates' cat around the house... that's a want. There's overlap, and gray area, but it just kind of falls into place.

The gray area is what gets ya, though .