Are tantrums acceptable behaviour?

[lisalu100]

I have a DD, 14 months, and I nanny another girl, A, who is 2.5 years. Both of them are pretty high needs, but they are a lot of fun, and love to be with each other, although they clearly drive each other crazy.

A has a very good hold on language, can express herself, talk in different tenses, verbalise her feelings. She has LOTS of tantrums. Usually for about an hour after mom leaves in the morning, and after nap-time. Today we had tantrums because...

I opened the car door before she was ready, although she had said she was.
DD tried to climb on her stool next to her.
She took something from DD, I said to give it back.

Plus many others. It was kind of a bad day.

I usually try to give her the words she needs, help her make the situation acceptable (once she asked nicely, I closed the door until she was ready/ I removed DD, reminded her to say "Move her please"/ took the toy and returned it to DD, telling A to find something and see if she could trade.)

In most situations, the tantrum continues until I ask if she would like a hug (I usually offer this after a couple mins), but I make her stop screaming before I pick her up i.e. "You can cry a little, but if you would like me to pick you up, you need to stop screaming, because you will hurt my ears". If it's real screaming fury, I will leave the room sometimes first. It really DOES hurt my ears.

My question is, at what point do you say enough is enough?

She doesn't often behave like this in public, but I waver between thinking she needs to let her emotions out, she's still very young, even if she can talk very well (this is how her mom thinks), and thinking that she needs to learn that she can't just start screaming every time things don't go her way. I often know ways to stop the tantrum (distractions), but I'm not sure if I should? Maybe offering a book/hug encourages the behaviour.

For what it's worth, I tend to distract if I think that is what her parents would want me to do. Of course every situation/tantrum is different.

I am intrigued as to how other people deal with the behaviour, so I can parent my own daughter. I care for A the way her parents want me to.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[pianojazzgirl]

Sorry, not much time to post, but I did want to say that what you describe is very normal behaviour for that age. Some kids
tantrum more than others (even siblings, raised the same way).

I think tantrums at this age are pretty "honest" and offering comfort (hug) or distraction is the way to go. What I try to do is imagine how awful my dc must be feeling at that moment. Sure, they're freaking out over something that might seem completely ridiculous to me, but to them it's a big deal and their emotions are real.

Another thing to think about is heading them off. There are the basics: is she well-fed, well-rested, not over-stimulated or bored, etc. Do some reflecting to see if you can come up with some regular triggers. Also some kids need to make their own choices "blue cup or red?", but other kids get overwhelmed with too many choices (even simple, limited choices like that) and do better with having the caregiver make the choices for them (ex. always using a red cup... that's "her" cup, unchanging). Giving them the right amount of choice for them can go a long way to avoiding tantrums. For some giving more choice will honour their need to feel heard and be independent, and for others taking away choices will help them feel less overwhelmed and provide for their need for security and structure.

[pianojazzgirl]

Also wanted to add... some ages are tricky for compatibility. It might be that in a few months something will click in the way your dd and the other girl interact and everything will become much easier. I've seen this happen with my own dc and other children. If your dd (not that she is at fault!!!) is the trigger for some of other girl's outbursts it very well might resolve itself naturally in a few months as they both mature and reach new stages of development. The older girl better able to share (space, toys, etc) and your dd better able to play with and interact in a non-frustrating way for the older girl (again, not to put anything on your dd at all, just speaking to what is normal for her age).

[mum4vr]

Originally Posted by lisalu100

Are tantrums acceptable behaviour?

uhm... NO...?

IMO, acceptable behavior is behavior you would like to see continue as your child grows and matures. Sometimes tantrums are age-related coping mechanisms and must be dealt with wisely (as you seem to be gifted at doing...), but are not behaviors I would try to encourage aka acceptable behavior.

Originally Posted by lisalu100

...
I am intrigued as to how other people deal with the behaviour, so I can parent my own daughter. I care for A the way her parents want me to.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think you are showing "A" great patience and kindness during her tantrums. If you think she is acting this way to "extort" or manipulate certain reactions from you, it may be time to 1) be sure hugs, stories, etc-- the things she would like more of-- are MORE available when she is not having a tantrum, and 2) do more neutral distractions during a tantrum, just so you are not unwittingly/ unwillingly encouraging/ rewarding behavior you'd like to see less of as she matures.

You are a super-duper care giver for parenting the way her parents would in their absence even tho you may NOT parent your own DD this way.

I discourage tantrums somewhat more tangibly than you have described. I at the very least, 1) name the behavior that is unacceptable, 2) state that it is not acceptable, 3) tell the child it should be stopped, 4) state any boundaries (like those you mentioned-- when you are through screaming, I will pick you up if you like, etc) , 5) sooth and distract with something fairly neutral.

blessings

[meemee]

tantrums are 'good' and necessary - for our situation

aaaaah she is in the terrible twos.

my dd sounds v. much like A.

i am a single mom who coparents. while in principal dd's dad and i are on the same page - gd, limited junk, etc - our style of parenting is 180 degrees different. while i am lax and laid back her dad is ALWAYS in control and my dd HAS to be on her best behaviour all the time with her dad. i dont think he has seen a single tantrum from her. he kinda started taking her for longer times after she was past the 'cant control' tantrum phase - after 3. when i asked her at 4 she she has all these horrendous tantrums for me and not for her dad she told me 'mama you understand me, dad doesnt.'

so tantrums for her is a way of expressing her frustration or venting. and its healthy. she gets it off her chest and either has to sleep or rest if it was really deep or it completely energizes her.

however tantrums at different ages mean different things.

at 2 what A is doing is typical. OMG what was going on at that time was that they have this world they live in that they are unable to express to anyone around them. so if while crossing hte street i reached the pavement first there would be this meltdown 'mama why did you come first. you are not supposed to come first.... and so on'.

what you are doing with A is you have understanding and care. you are absolutely right to ask her to stop screaming as it hurts your ears. you are letting her be aware of YOUR needs. MOST important.

2 IS a hard age.

and i always look upon tantrums as my golden prize. my reward as a mom. that my child is so comfortable around me that she can be who she wants without worrying about will my mom love me even at my worst.

it breaks my heart for that little girl to cry for an hour after mama leaves.

3 things are still very important. enough food, rest and enough physical exercise to help them deal with their emotions. the crying after naptime. i wonder if her sugar could be low and she needs a snack to feel better? or maybe she misses nursing.

i find tantrums at 2 are all about expression. they dont want you to fix it. so in other words they dont really want the candy they are screaming about. they just want to air their views and need some reassurance around that.

there are tantrums i have given into. some i have not. you have to use your gut to decide which ones means what. so many times with my then 2 year old it wasnt so much about wanting. it was so much more about frustration. and EVERY SINGLE TIME she threw her worst i could trace it to tiredness or hunger or lack of running around.

i have never told my dd enough is enough. if i have every right to vent (either in my mind or openly) then she has the right to do so too. however i have found playful ways to make her laugh (if the tantrum is not too bad) which i have needed to do to stop the tantrum get out of hand. curtail it before it became very serious. you are absolutely right on that she needs a place to vent. that she maybe precocious intellectually - but that doesnt mean she has the emotions of an older child too.

2 is about trying to control your emotions. and learn to express it in a socially acceptable way. i would never encourage to stop the tantrum.

[lisalu100]

[QUOTE=meemee;15959861]

it breaks my heart for that little girl to cry for an hour after mama leaves.

She doesn't cry for an hour - she is sensitive for this time - things will set her off very easily. It's better then if DD isn't with me to upset her.

The thing is, if it isn't acceptable behaviour, shouldn't I be trying to stop it when it occurs? (Obviously prevention is the ideal.)

[mamazee]

I hate looking at behavior as "acceptable" or not. It is normal age-appropriate behavior, and to not accept our children's normal age-appropriate behavior as where they need to be right then seems unfair to me, but on the other hand obviously it isn't desirable behavior. I would try not to frame it in that way because IMO it isn't a helpful way of looking at it.

Kids learn things through tantrums, and until those things are learned, they will have tantrums. Two big things they learn are the concepts of futility, that things won't always go how they want no matter what and that it's OK for things to not go how they want, and the concept of unconditional love, that we and they continue to feel love even during strong negative feelings. The best way to deal with tantrums IMO is to help children learn those two things so they move past the tantrum stage. I look at tantrums as something to work through rather than something to simply stop.

[shanniesue2]

in a toddler, I don't think about tantrums in terms of acceptable and unacceptable. It's a normal age-appropriate response to the ups and downs of toddlerhood. Is it something to help children work through? Yes, and it sounds like you are doing a wonderful job with this. Is it misbehavior? No.

Now in older nuerotypical children, I think tantrums ARE unacceptable. If we're talking an otherwise normal 5 year old who is throwing screaming fits... well I think that is a behavior issue (although I'm still hesitant to call it misbehavior)... and I think in that case it is appropriate to be more direct about stopping the tantrums... i.e. "I'm sorry you are so upset. But you need to stop screaming now. If you need a few minutes to cry quietly, that's okay. Here's a place where you can be alone until you feel ready to join us again." I have two kids in my kindy class at school that I am working with on this.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by lisalu100

The thing is, if it isn't acceptable behaviour, shouldn't I be trying to stop it when it occurs? (Obviously prevention is the ideal.)

you are going to find different philosophies on this from different moms.

for instance she is NOT tantruming ALL the time. she DOES NOT do it in public. so she already knows and understands social norms.

i would go with your gut behaviour that she needs to express sometimes.

do you feel manipulated? or do you think she is just expressing. to me from your examples seh sounds like she is expressing.

i think A has already got it that its not a socially acceptable behaviour. at 2 all she can do is express. if you keep up with the loving she will soon be able to control her emotions. you cannot ask her to stop or control her behav at 2. it will happen in time.

in public it is unacceptable. at home it is totally acceptable.

not allowing her to have her tantrum is like stopping a person from expressing their emotion. i would not stop it. she needs that physical touch. she needs that extra loving.

[One_Girl]

Tantrums are an expression of emotions, especially for young children. I used to hold my dd and talk her through the tantrums at that age. We talked a lot about emotions and I tried to pay attention to her emotions (both the ones she expressed and the ones her body language showed me she was having) so I could help her not reach a point where she had melted down and had a tantrum. I also prevented tantrums by paying attention to sleep cues, hunger cues, frustration level, etc... As my dd got older and more capable of expressing herself without melting down completely even when frustrated I slowly became less accepting of tantrums, and I do think there is a stage where they become unacceptable but the age for that really varies depending on the child.

[CarrieMF]

IMO tantrums become unacceptable behaviour when they are used by the child to get what they want. ie, child throws a screaming tantrum in the store becuase they want a toy/candy/etc & it has been reinforced to the child(by giving the child what they want) that if they act like that they will receive what they want.

[lisalu100]

Thank you so much for all your responses - they really have been a big help. No, I guess I don't really feel like I am being manipulated.

When I look at the triggers, the tantrums are when I am trying to make packed lunches/feed breakfast (just after Mom has left), and often when we are hurrying out the door after nap-time to be home in time for big brother getting in from school, or when I am cleaning the kitchen in the afternoon. She likes to go off and play during the afternoon, even when I try to involve her, but perhaps I need to rearrange my day a little to keep my busy times to her less-needy times.

Also, I remember a post in the Joyful Morning thread that said about spending 5 minutes connecting after a break such as a nap/night/day at school. I think I'll try that too, rather than directing "A" straight to the kitchen for breakfast/snack.

[Marissamom]

especially if she is very verbal, I would work on teaching her how to express what she's feeling in words, rather than screaming. I think it's important to address the feelings, but screaming is something that shouldn't be acceptable as something to continue. DD is only 17 months, so when she starts to scream, I say something like "Mad, A is Mad, mama took dada's keys away. can you say 'Mad'?" she will usually stop screaming and try to say "mad". obviously with an older child with more complex feelings the language becomes more complex, but the basic idea is the same.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by lisalu100

In most situations, the tantrum continues until I ask if she would like a hug (I usually offer this after a couple mins), but I make her stop screaming before I pick her up i.e. "You can cry a little, but if you would like me to pick you up, you need to stop screaming, because you will hurt my ears". If it's real screaming fury, I will leave the room sometimes first. It really DOES hurt my ears.

My question is, at what point do you say enough is enough?

Tantrums are how babies and toddlers learn to deal with overwhelming emotions. Not only are they acceptable behavior they are a developmentally useful part of normal emotional growth. A child tantrums when they can't handle their emotions and stress hormones are flooding their little brains and bodies. Their over excited nervous system needs a calm adult one to go back to normal, that's why the child can calm down when you hug her. Have you tried giving the child a hug right away?

The Science of Parenting by Margot Sunderland, does a really good job of showing how our parenting effects a child's neurological development, and explains child behavior from a neurological development point of view. This article goes into the effect of one stress hormone on little ones http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/li...n_palmer2.html .

[JudiAU]

Young people have tantrums because they are young people. They have a lot to process and can't handle the flow of emotions. Tantrums aren't right or wrong, although they may be wearisome. It is just the stage these children are in right now. You can't stop them per se, and it isn't a judgment about caregiving/something you can control/can end necessarily although probably some people will have some good advice about how you can help them process their feelings.

[shanniesue2]

Originally Posted by Marissamom

especially if she is very verbal, I would work on teaching her how to express what she's feeling in words, rather than screaming. I think it's important to address the feelings, but screaming is something that shouldn't be acceptable as something to continue. DD is only 17 months, so when she starts to scream, I say something like "Mad, A is Mad, mama took dada's keys away. can you say 'Mad'?" she will usually stop screaming and try to say "mad". obviously with an older child with more complex feelings the language becomes more complex, but the basic idea is the same.

My 2.5 yo son has taken to roaring at me when he gets mad about something. One day he was roaring at me and hit me at the same time. I got really firm and said "do not hit me. I don't like that. If you're mad, you can roar at me, but you may not hit me." He got really upset that I had scolded him (or whatever word you want to use) and he started crying and got all cuddly. I've seen him raise his hand at me a few times since, but he has always stopped himself and started roaring instead. Every time he does this, I always say something like, "you're so mad you just have to roar." Then he starts yelling, "I'M NOT MAD! I'M NOT MAD!" And starts roaring again. I do a pretty good job of staying calm, and honestly that kind of amuses me. I'm always thinking "yeah, I can see that you're not mad." Basically, once I've put a name to his emotion, I try not to be too reactive. As long as he's not physically trying to hurt someone (at least at this stage--as he gets older, I'll start REALLY pushing how to use appropriate words when you've got strong emotions). For now, I just lcalmly abel and model... and leave it at that b/c pushing the issue right now just pisses him off more.

One day he was roaring at me about something, and DH asked him what he was doing... he stopped roaring and calmly said, "oh. I'm roaring at mommy."

[peaceful_mama]

As a general rule, I don't think tantrums are ACCEPTABLE. But there's certain ages where it's EXPECTED and you just go with the flow and find ways to teach them what *is* acceptable.

I have 3 kids. One will be 2 in just a couple of weeks. He's very verbal for his age, but not yet skilled in using words to express feelings. for example, last night he was watching a cartoon with his older sister--he said "Itsy Bitsy Spider go up da water 'pout with Ming-Ming!" He is starting to speak in complete sentences like that when he makes observations about things around him.
He can say things like "I wanna eat." "I want juice" A couple days ago he said "Shoes on, go outside and play my twuck"

BUT this is a BRAND NEW skill.

So I *expect* that being told "Not right now because..." will bring on a screaming, crying tantrum. He lacks the ability right now to say "But I WANT to and I'm MAD!" or whatever.

And since he's so young, I just offer distractions or comfort and/or walk away and let him vent.
No matter what, any child that is in the middle of a tantrum, there's no reasoning with him while he's experiencing that.

also at 23 months, unless we are in public and I have removed him from something (which I would do if his behavior warranted it, just because it is age-appropriate does not mean it's *acceptable*--he needs to learn that, and removing them from the situation when the behavior warrants it is a way to teach that.) I would not expect him to remember that situation long enough to go back and discuss it later when he's calm. (If I had removed him from something, I would say "we can't scream in XYZ" or "hit others" or whatever and say "are you done hitting/screaming?" or something.)

Now my other kids who are almost 4 and 6....the 6 year old doesn't really throw tantrums. The younger one sometimes does, and I am working on moving her screaming/crying fit-throwing into her bedroom. It's no longer appropriate, and we don't want the ear-splitting screaming. She is also old enough to talk about it afterward.

[cappuccinosmom]

IMO, acceptable behavior is behavior you would like to see continue as your child grows and matures. Sometimes tantrums are age-related coping mechanisms and must be dealt with wisely (as you seem to be gifted at doing...), but are not behaviors I would try to encourage aka acceptable behavior.

This. It's developmentally normal for many (most?) kids, but not something I want them to view as a life-long acceptable method for dealing with frustration or anger. Older kids, teens, and adults who don't now how to deal with things without a tantrum are at a serious social disadvantage.

How you deal with it depends on the child, I think.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Marissamom

especially if she is very verbal, I would work on teaching her how to express what she's feeling in words, rather than screaming. I think it's important to address the feelings, but screaming is something that shouldn't be acceptable as something to continue. DD is only 17 months, so when she starts to scream, I say something like "Mad, A is Mad, mama took dada's keys away. can you say 'Mad'?" she will usually stop screaming and try to say "mad". obviously with an older child with more complex feelings the language becomes more complex, but the basic idea is the same.

No offense, really, but you don't know what your 17MO will be like at 2.5 or 3.5. At 17MO, most children haven't separated themselves enough from their parents for completely independent decisions & actions. The basic idea really isn't the same when you're dealing with children who are old enough to see themselves as completely separate from their caregivers. For most children, that happens around age 2.

OP, I think the best way to deal with tantrums varies. My DD has never had a full-blown tantrum. DS would get absolutely livid if you walked out of the room while he was having a meltdown. It would prolong, rather than stop, the tantrum. The same goes for just ignoring him, which I know people love to offer up as universal advice. That was a terrible idea for my son. You have to work with her to see what works best for her, but none of the examples you gave strike me as at all odd or concerning from even a verbal 2YO.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by lisalu100

but perhaps I need to rearrange my day a little to keep my busy times to her less-needy times.

YUP you are absolutely right

Originally Posted by lisalu100

lso, I remember a post in the Joyful Morning thread that said about spending 5 minutes connecting after a break such as a nap/night/day at school. I think I'll try that too, rather than directing "A" straight to the kitchen for breakfast/snack.

waking up and going to sleep time are the two most important connecting time we can ever have with our children. cuddling during then - the need for cuddling is hte most. dd and i are 'vegetators' - cant just get up and go. we need to cuddle and plan the rest of the day or talk about her dream before we go. it can take from about 5 to 15 mins. so yup i would say RIGHT ON!!!!

and yes you got it. the best way to 'control' tantrums is by eliminating all triggers. you wont stop them all but you can cut down the numbers for sure.

you are doing really great mama, and it touches my heart so deeply that A means so much to you.