Are tantrums acceptable behaviour? - Page 2

[BetsyNY]

Originally Posted by mamazee

I hate looking at behavior as "acceptable" or not. It is normal age-appropriate behavior, and to not accept our children's normal age-appropriate behavior as where they need to be right then seems unfair to me, but on the other hand obviously it isn't desirable behavior. I would try not to frame it in that way because IMO it isn't a helpful way of looking at it.

Kids learn things through tantrums, and until those things are learned, they will have tantrums. Two big things they learn are the concepts of futility, that things won't always go how they want no matter what and that it's OK for things to not go how they want, and the concept of unconditional love, that we and they continue to feel love even during strong negative feelings. The best way to deal with tantrums IMO is to help children learn those two things so they move past the tantrum stage. I look at tantrums as something to work through rather than something to simply stop.

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[Lisa1970]

Tantrums are not acceptable, but they are very normal. You just need to find a way to work through them. Good luck with that. I think tantrums are one of the harder parenting issues out there.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by Marissamom

especially if she is very verbal, I would work on teaching her how to express what she's feeling in words, rather than screaming. I think it's important to address the feelings, but screaming is something that shouldn't be acceptable as something to continue. DD is only 17 months, so when she starts to scream, I say something like "Mad, A is Mad, mama took dada's keys away. can you say 'Mad'?" she will usually stop screaming and try to say "mad". obviously with an older child with more complex feelings the language becomes more complex, but the basic idea is the same.

I think there is a bit of a misconception that just because a child CAN verbalize very well, that they SHOULD always use their words.

In my (very limited) experience, I have come to a different conclusion. It seems that with highly verbal toddlers, it's very easy to forget their real age. Toddlers are so sensitive & so easily overwhelmed, and I think this is the case regardless of how well they can converse. I have a highly-verbal 20-mo and in some ways being so verbal makes things even worse -- he KNOWS what he's feeling, and he KNOWS the words he has just aren't accurate enough for it. He also doesn't have the patience/calmness (in the middle of a tantrum) to stop and try to verbalize how he's feeling or what he wants. He is still a baby and still emotionally needs to express himself in baby ways (aka crying, tantrums, etc.) The child the OP is nannying for is a bit older than my DS obviously, but she's still so young too. She's 2.5 and perhaps she can communicate better than a 3yo or whatever, but she's still 2.5, and it's possible her emotional maturity could even be younger -- maybe she's only 2, emotionally (I don't know, I don't know her lol, just using as an example...)

OP, I think you are handling the situation well. I would also try to figure out a way to help her feel more comfortable during that first hour or so when she's so emotionally vulnerable. Maybe she needs more distractions (super fun activities or outings) or maybe she needs the opposite -- more time to just BE, just do whatever she wants... Or maybe simply having a comfort object or a favorite snack could help. I don't think that will necessarily stop ALL the tantrumming but it could minimize it.

When DS is in the middle of a tantrum, we usually ask him to take deep breaths and look at us. We explain that we know he's upset & try as best we can to verbalize for him what we think he MIGHT be feeling ("Are you upset that you can't play with this knife? (nod) Yeah? Well Mommy took the knife away because it's very dangerous, you could get hurt, and I don't want you to get hurt because I love you very much. I know that knife looked so fun to play with. How about we go play with crayons now?") This usually works well for him, but I'm sure some kids would respond better with less interaction or more immediate distraction or more cuddling or more time to themselves or whatever...

[lilyka]

It is normal behavior but not acceptable. If it were my child some thing I would do to help break the habit are...

1) Give hugs and stuff when she is not throwing a fit. it sounds like she may need more attention and gentleness when she is transitioning. That is fine and normal and should be indulged. She is clearly having a hard time. Throwing a tantrum to get it is not fine. Give the hugs, attention, affection and be aware of the situation to head off tantrums.

2) not offer pity for screaming. I always told my kids, quite calmly to "stop screaming" and carried on with what we were doing.

From the examples you gave.
With the car door I would have told her to stop screaming and then asked her if she wanted to get in the car herself or would like me to put her in.

With the stool incident I would apologized for what the baby did and offer her some calm words. I would have given a hug and reassured her that everything was ok now and told her to stop screaming. Once she calmed down I would remind her how to ask me to move the baby.

With the toy I would have probably let her keep it if the baby was not upset. Depends on how often this happens etc. I would have reminded her not to take toys away from the baby and told her what the consequences will be if she does it again (The baby does not seem to mind right now but if you do it again we will have to give the toy back to the baby. Please don't take toys from the baby, If you want something she has ask me first and I will help you.) I may have asked her to get a new toy for the baby before she went on playing. Once she was tantruming though I would have probably put her in time out (maybe on the couch in the other room) but it sounds like the mom is not into that so I would have just let her scream and told her she needs to stop screaming and when she was done she may come and have fun with us. I mean really a tantrum is its own time out. She is effectively taking herself out of the fun.


Oh, and I agree with the poster above me....Just because I have words doesn't mean I can always use them. I am prone to have a little hissy fit every now and then and I am 36. When people get angry, frustrated, overwhelmed it is hard to calmly say what they are feeling. Sometimes we just snap. That goes for very verbal 2 year olds as well as adults. Tantrums happen and it is a life long process to learn to keep them from bursting out. And even when I use words they do not always come out in this serene and calm and pleasant. Sometimes they come out in a very well worded tantrum Still completely unacceptable but we just have to learn to control our outburst. That doesn't mean they go away.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Just because I have words doesn't mean I can always use them. I am prone to have a little hissy fit every now and then and I am 36. When people get angry, frustrated, overwhelmed it is hard to calmly say what they are feeling. Sometimes we just snap.

Exactly. Ever have that feeling of ARRRRRRRRRRRGH I JUST WANT TO SCREAM!!!!!!!!? But as adults we have the impulse control to stop ourselves (at least when it's socially unacceptable.... I admit I personally hold back a lot less in more comfortable situations i.e. at home)... Toddlers don't even have that impulse control yet...

[cappuccinosmom]

When people get angry, frustrated, overwhelmed it is hard to calmly say what they are feeling. Sometimes we just snap.

And when we do, we hurt others, either by our words, or if there is lack of physical restraint, then with our hands. That is not acceptable. It happens, because we're all humans. But it's not behavior to be encouraged or accepted. It's not something I accept in myself nor something I want my children to see as OK.

I hate to disagree with you, lilyka. Normally I love what you say.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama

As a general rule, I don't think tantrums are ACCEPTABLE. But there's certain ages where it's EXPECTED and you just go with the flow and find ways to teach them what *is* acceptable.

Tantrums are a loss of emotional control. While it's not OK for an adult to lose emotional control and tantrum, I think it's to be expected from a very young child (2.5 is very young, no matter how verbal they are). They don't have the skills yet to learn to deal with their overwhelming emotions. Heck, even we adults lose control sometime. How can I expect more from a toddler?

The one thing that I would caution, however, is that it's going to take a number of years for her to really learn to express her emotions verbally. 2 1/2 year olds are just barely able to do that, and if the emotion is too much, the ability to work through it verbally will disappear.

OP: I think the idea of rearranging your day to be more 'available' during some of these transition times is a great idea!

[Marissamom]

Originally Posted by lilyka

It is normal behavior but not acceptable. If it were my child some thing I would do to help break the habit are...

1) Give hugs and stuff when she is not throwing a fit. it sounds like she may need more attention and gentleness when she is transitioning. That is fine and normal and should be indulged. She is clearly having a hard time. Throwing a tantrum to get it is not fine. Give the hugs, attention, affection and be aware of the situation to head off tantrums.

2) not offer pity for screaming. I always told my kids, quite calmly to "stop screaming" and carried on with what we were doing.

From the examples you gave.
With the car door I would have told her to stop screaming and then asked her if she wanted to get in the car herself or would like me to put her in.

With the stool incident I would apologized for what the baby did and offer her some calm words. I would have given a hug and reassured her that everything was ok now and told her to stop screaming. Once she calmed down I would remind her how to ask me to move the baby.

With the toy I would have probably let her keep it if the baby was not upset. Depends on how often this happens etc. I would have reminded her not to take toys away from the baby and told her what the consequences will be if she does it again (The baby does not seem to mind right now but if you do it again we will have to give the toy back to the baby. Please don't take toys from the baby, If you want something she has ask me first and I will help you.) I may have asked her to get a new toy for the baby before she went on playing. Once she was tantruming though I would have probably put her in time out (maybe on the couch in the other room) but it sounds like the mom is not into that so I would have just let her scream and told her she needs to stop screaming and when she was done she may come and have fun with us. I mean really a tantrum is its own time out. She is effectively taking herself out of the fun.


Oh, and I agree with the poster above me....Just because I have words doesn't mean I can always use them. I am prone to have a little hissy fit every now and then and I am 36. When people get angry, frustrated, overwhelmed it is hard to calmly say what they are feeling. Sometimes we just snap. That goes for very verbal 2 year olds as well as adults. Tantrums happen and it is a life long process to learn to keep them from bursting out. And even when I use words they do not always come out in this serene and calm and pleasant. Sometimes they come out in a very well worded tantrum Still completely unacceptable but we just have to learn to control our outburst. That doesn't mean they go away.

I didn't say that it was realistic, or even healthy to insist on words always. I think you should put words to the underlying emotions in order to acknowledge what the child is feeling and to teach them for the future how to more effectively express themself. Sometimes all a tantruming toddler needs in order to calm down is for you to let them know that you understand what they are feeling. And by putting their feelings into words for them, they are learning the words for future use, even if it's months or years down the line before they start using the words instead of screaming. Transitioning away from tantrums is something that's gradual no matter what, but as the child learns how to verbalize, they start verbalizing with smaller emotions, and gradually work their way up to the biggest, strongest emotions, meaning as they learn to verbalize their emotions there's a gradual decrease in number and frequency of tantrums.

and what I meant by especially with a child who's more verbal, I don't expect them to have more emotional control, but I do expect them to understand more when you are putting words to their emotions. I didn't usually put words to my DD's emotions when she was tantruming at 10 months, because it wasn't constructive, because she only knew two words. now that she knows and uses 60-70 words it's more effective because she gets at least the gist of what I'm saying when I do put words to her emotions.

[nextcommercial]

It's completely normal at this age.

But, it DOES hurt your ears, and it IS annoying. Especially when it's an all day long thing.

Some kids can throw bigger and better fits than other kids. I have a three year old that still throws louder more ear piercing tantrums than all other kids in the whole entire world. But, she's down to about 1/4 of the tantrums she was having.

Other kids just roll through life with hardly any tantrums. The occasional, well deserved tantrum is one thing, but one every hour of every day is frustrating, and it makes your head hurt.

In college, one of our teachers would say "Step over the child, not ON the child, and walk away" (usually he was referring to adults who were making him mad though) I use that advice often. I let the tantrum happen, without giving it much attention. Most of the time, this particular child doesn't want to be talked to, or touched, or even looked at anyway. So, in her case, it's never good to stick around.

[ellemenope]

I think it might be different with DD, but for us personally, tantrums are not acceptable behaviour in that it is not acceptable for me to let DD get to the point where she would feel that upset.

But, DD is pretty laid back, and I have only just partially raised the one. And, DD is not even 2.5.

We avoid the tantrums by keeping her well fed and napped. We redirect. And, we reason. If something comes up where that stuff is not going to work, we try our best to make everyone happy. We are always talking about emotions and feelings. And, we are always giving cuddles, love, and attention.

[Marissamom]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

No offense, really, but you don't know what your 17MO will be like at 2.5 or 3.5. At 17MO, most children haven't separated themselves enough from their parents for completely independent decisions & actions. The basic idea really isn't the same when you're dealing with children who are old enough to see themselves as completely separate from their caregivers. For most children, that happens around age 2.

OP, I think the best way to deal with tantrums varies. My DD has never had a full-blown tantrum. DS would get absolutely livid if you walked out of the room while he was having a meltdown. It would prolong, rather than stop, the tantrum. The same goes for just ignoring him, which I know people love to offer up as universal advice. That was a terrible idea for my son. You have to work with her to see what works best for her, but none of the examples you gave strike me as at all odd or concerning from even a verbal 2YO.

DD is not the only child I've had a hand in raising, my other "babies" are 16, 15 and 11 now. The idea of giving words to a child's emotions when they can't has worked at all ages for me, including with a pre-teen. I'm not saying the exact wording or handling of the situation is going to be the same for 2.5 year old as for a 17 month old, but the method of giving words the their emotions before going into other diffusion techniques isn't unique to a child under 2.

[sapphire_chan]

Does her mom have to wake her up to bring her to you? The frustration you describe and the timing sounds like a tired toddler to me.

Could you work with her mom on getting her some more sleep? Like maybe mom could bring her in her pajamas and bring her clothes for the day along. And you could maybe at least start things off with her laying on your couch or something and doing quiet things like a story or some such--if she can't sleep. Make things nice and dark.

I bet if she was able to sleep for even the first 15-30 minutes of her time with you that the whole day would go better. And then when she's had some sleep, open up all the curtains, turn on the lights, get them outside if it's not absurdly cold.


ETA: Tantrums are normal and will happen, but if they're a regular event it's a sign that something is wrong at that time. My guess for your particular situation is that she isn't really ready to be awake yet.

[Latte Mama]

Originally Posted by ellemenope

I think it might be different with DD, but for us personally, tantrums are not acceptable behaviour in that it is not acceptable for me to let DD get to the point where she would feel that upset.

But, DD is pretty laid back, and I have only just partially raised the one. And, DD is not even 2.5.

We avoid the tantrums by keeping her well fed and napped. We redirect. And, we reason. If something comes up where that stuff is not going to work, we try our best to make everyone happy. We are always talking about emotions and feelings. And, we are always giving cuddles, love, and attention.

This all sounds wonderful but just know that a large part of it may be your child's personality.

I certainly don't "let" my DS get that upset, he just does! He has a fiery personality. He's always well fed and we make sure sleep ia a priority.
He also gets tons of love and cuddles as I'm sure many tantrumming children get.

Some kids just tantrum more than others no matter what you try to do to prevent it. My one sister and I never threw tantrums but that was just our personalities. My other sister threw lots of them.
Same mother, same way of raising.

[journeymom]

OP, I think you also wondered not only if tantrums are normal, but is the frequency you described normal. Well, all kids are different, you're there and we aren't. If it's wearing you out then you are right to do something about it. That's all I feel I can do from this side of the computer: acknowledge that your conclusion is probably accurate and that you're right to try to reduce the number of tantrums.

Lisa said,

Tantrums are not acceptable, but they are very normal. You just need to find a way to work through them. Good luck with that. I think tantrums are one of the harder parenting issues out there.

Yup, that's it in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

And when we do, we hurt others, either by our words, or if there is lack of physical restraint, then with our hands. That is not acceptable. It happens, because we're all humans. But it's not behavior to be encouraged or accepted. It's not something I accept in myself nor something I want my children to see as OK.

I hate to disagree with you, lilyka. Normally I love what you say.

I'm probably missing something. But it seems to me that your sentiment stated here is in complete agreement with what Lilyka says in her post.

Originally Posted by lilyka

It is normal behavior but not acceptable. If it were my child some thing I would do to help break the habit are...


Still completely unacceptable but we just have to learn to control our outburst. That doesn't mean they go away.

[journeymom]

She doesn't often behave like this in public, but I waver between thinking she needs to let her emotions out, she's still very young, even if she can talk very well (this is how her mom thinks), and thinking that she needs to learn that she can't just start screaming every time things don't go her way. I often know ways to stop the tantrum (distractions), but I'm not sure if I should? Maybe offering a book/hug encourages the behavior.

For what it's worth, I tend to distract if I think that is what her parents would want me to do. Of course every situation/tantrum is different.

Yes, like a couple others said, it's fair to tell her the screaming must stop. Everyone is entitled to their feelings, toddlers and nannies, alike.

Doesn't mean it will work immediately.

[ellemenope]

Originally Posted by Latte Mama

This all sounds wonderful but just know that a large part of it may be your child's personality.

I certainly don't "let" my DS get that upset, he just does! He has a fiery personality. He's always well fed and we make sure sleep ia a priority.
He also gets tons of love and cuddles as I'm sure many tantrumming children get.

Some kids just tantrum more than others no matter what you try to do to prevent it. My one sister and I never threw tantrums but that was just our personalities. My other sister threw lots of them.
Same mother, same way of raising.

Yes. You are right. I do think we have it easy. I tries to word my post very carefully.

We have are own battles. If you have never had a toddler who refused to eat most food, you might think you had all the answers for that, too. I hate hearing parents take credit for their kid's ecclectic appetite. DD just does not like food. It is in her DNA.

[Alyantavid]

Well I'll be the oddball and say tantrums are acceptable behavior. Do I like listening to an upset child scream? Of course not. Do I like knowing that my child is perfectly comfortable, in his own home, letting all that anger and frustration out in the best way he knows how? Absolutely.

Tantrums over not getting what you want the second you want it are totally normal in children. Sometimes I want what I want when I want it. No, I don't throw myself on the floor kicking and screaming, but I can still be upset. I'm an adult and know how to deal with disappointment. These are very young children who are still learning how things work.

And it so depends on the kid. My oldest never threw lots of huge tantrums. And when he did, he needed to be held and talked to until he got it all out. My youngest is a tantrumer and he does not want anyone talking to him or touching him. But when I see it coming, I can cuddle him and talk him through it before it hits.

Originally Posted by shanniesue2

in a toddler, I don't think about tantrums in terms of acceptable and unacceptable. It's a normal age-appropriate response to the ups and downs of toddlerhood. Is it something to help children work through? Yes, and it sounds like you are doing a wonderful job with this. Is it misbehavior? No.

Now in older nuerotypical children, I think tantrums ARE unacceptable. If we're talking an otherwise normal 5 year old who is throwing screaming fits... well I think that is a behavior issue (although I'm still hesitant to call it misbehavior)... and I think in that case it is appropriate to be more direct about stopping the tantrums... i.e. "I'm sorry you are so upset. But you need to stop screaming now. If you need a few minutes to cry quietly, that's okay. Here's a place where you can be alone until you feel ready to join us again." I have two kids in my kindy class at school that I am working with on this.

That exactly. Now that my youngest is 4, he does need to start learning how to control them somewhat. My kids have a right to be upset and scream and yell in our house. But not at people. And they can always go their rooms and do it and say anything they like while they're in there.

Originally Posted by Latte Mama

This all sounds wonderful but just know that a large part of it may be your child's personality.

I certainly don't "let" my DS get that upset, he just does! He has a fiery personality. He's always well fed and we make sure sleep ia a priority.
He also gets tons of love and cuddles as I'm sure many tantrumming children get.

Some kids just tantrum more than others no matter what you try to do to prevent it. My one sister and I never threw tantrums but that was just our personalities. My other sister threw lots of them.
Same mother, same way of raising.

Yeah, it's really not always as easy as making sure they have enough sleep and food. I can't always stop a tantrum before it starts. Because sometimes, it takes 2 seconds for him to go from perfectly happy to extremely upset. It's who he is. It's my job to help him learn how to deal with his emotions. Which is something that's very hard to grasp at 2.5.

Good luck, op. It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job!

[EdnaMarie]

She needs to learn that she can't just start screaming every time things don't go her way.

I guess I'm wondering how you plan to teach that. I mean, you can ask them to leave because you don't want to hear it, and you may need to drag them kicking and screaming. Or... what? Put a sock in it (literally)? Give a different dialogue to prevent it?

The idea of giving words to a child's emotions when they can't has worked at all ages for me, including with a pre-teen

No, because it hasn't worked with this one.

Sounds like you're at a 75% success rate for those over two.

Both of my kids look at me like I'm stupid when I give words to their tantrums. The look is, "No $8*+ sherlock! So do something about it why don't you?!?"

Love mamazee's discussion of acceptable vs. age appropriate vs. something that needs something done about it.

[Latte Mama]

Originally Posted by ellemenope

Yes. You are right. I do think we have it easy. I tries to word my post very carefully.

We have are own battles. If you have never had a toddler who refused to eat most food, you might think you had all the answers for that, too. I hate hearing parents take credit for their kid's ecclectic appetite. DD just does not like food. It is in her DNA.

Aw, I'm sorry mama, I can't imagine how hard that must be. Wanting your kid to eat must be very stressful.

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

I guess I'm wondering how you plan to teach that. I mean, you can ask them to leave because you don't want to hear it, and you may need to drag them kicking and screaming. Or... what? Put a sock in it (literally)? Give a different dialogue to prevent it?



No, because it hasn't worked with this one.

Sounds like you're at a 75% success rate for those over two.

Both of my kids look at me like I'm stupid when I give words to their tantrums. The look is, "No $8*+ sherlock! So do something about it why don't you?!?"Love mamazee's discussion of acceptable vs. age appropriate vs. something that needs something done about it.

at the bolded. My DS either ignores me and continues screaming or gives me the same look. I keep trying though, all the stuff I've read here on MDC but my kid is not having any of it. And he tantrums in public, doesn't matter to him.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

And when we do, we hurt others, either by our words, or if there is lack of physical restraint, then with our hands. That is not acceptable. It happens, because we're all humans. But it's not behavior to be encouraged or accepted. It's not something I accept in myself nor something I want my children to see as OK.

I hate to disagree with you, lilyka. Normally I love what you say.

I think you misunderstood (or more likely I miscommunicated. ) It is still unacceptable. And we still have to fight the urge to have outbursts. My point was just because the child in question (or any child) is very verbal it doesn't mean she has the coping skills she needs and that even using words might not result in acceptable, non tantrum behavior. Being verbal does not automatically give you coping skills or make one capable of behaving in an acceptable manner.


Also whenever I gave words to my kids feelings it made them mad. And I understand. Nothing irritates me more than when I am melting down (I know I know, not very mature) and someone tries to tell me how I am feeling. aaggh! So I refrain from doing that to my children. I just tell them to stop. if they don't they can go tantrum somewhere else until they are done. And granted the way I handle an infants tantrum and a toddlers and preschoolers and school age child are all different and dependent on the tantrum but I do try to refrain from saying things like "I see you are angry" It never seemed to help my children.