School "Too Much" For 5 year old?

[cyberfish]

I enrolled my daughter in public school 3 weeks ago, 6 weeks after everyone else had started. She'd turned 5 literally days before going off to school and wanted to go. She just squeaked in under the birthday cutoff for kindergarten. So she's probably the youngest in the whole grade, with some kids already turning 6.

Well, they did all kinds of tests and found that despite being the youngest in the class, she's also academically light years ahead of everyone. Her teacher said my daughter "blew away" the assessments and wasn't quite sure what to do with her but she was going to try very hard to keep my daughter happy and engaged to the point of prepping my child to attend some 1st grade classes soon. I like this teacher because it seems like she really wants the kids to succeed and I don't feel she's pushing these little kids inappropriately hard for their ages. My daughter likes her a lot too.
My daughter is less enthused by school as the weeks have gone by. It is a full day and she's been complaining that it's "too long." It's 7 hours and they really don't have any down time/quiet time/rest time at all for the kids. This school consistently fails to make adequate progress by testing standards so they seem to work the kids pretty hard, hence the lack of downtime and little to no recess at all grade levels.

I don't know what to do. My daughter enjoys the academic challenges (when she gets them) but is completely wiped out by this long day. She also got really *really* angry when the book sent home for optional reading was again too easy for her, even though she has probably over 100 of her own books. Homeschooling was the original plan but is not an option at this moment in time. Private schools around here are not an option for various reasons either. I dropped her off this morning with her in tears after she spent the morning crying about how she didn't want to go to school because it was too long and they never get to rest But I know she also thrives on social interaction and likes having lots of little classmates as potential friends.

[whatsnextmom]

There are some options. My eldest started kindie at 5 (half-day) but 2 to 5 grade levels advanced in every subject. She became depressed and despondent in class despite the differentiated work and ended up moving to 1st after Winter break. It was the best thing for her. My DS started kindie at 4. The long days didn't bother him but then, his school gave the kindies 3 recesses and a quiet time. We did end up moving him to an immersion school for a more enriching environment as while he's academically eligible for a grade acceleration, he's not such a good candidate in other ways. My kids are in 5th and 9th grade and we've been through pretty much everything in reguards to accomodation over the years.... in-class differentiation, compacted curriculum, subject acceleration and grade acceleration.

I suspect the "tired" and "long days" has more to do with a poor academic and possibly social fit than her really not being able to handle the length of time. Does she have a particularly strong area? If so, you might consider a subject acceleration. Going to the 1st grade class at least a couple times a week might break up the time for her, keep her engaged and in touch with a more appropriate peer group.

Talk to her teacher. Tell her how your DD has been feeling first and formost. See what the teacher has to offer your DD and don't be afraid to try things. Take each school year on it's own.... what works one year, may not the next. Stay flexible and listen to your kids and they'll do great.

[lauren]

I can add that most kindergarten kids in a full day program go through a phase where they feel like it is too much. they get weepy and cranky and need lots of extra sleep. Then suddenly they adjust and those symptoms all go away. I have watched this with all 3 of my kids and it is like clockwork. It is possible that you need to hang in there a few more weeks before you make any decisions about changing anything.

[meetoo]

I think you should advocate for change in the school. All school age children NEED recess. Adults in the work force get several break in an 8 hour shift. Kids deserve this more so. I would join the PTA and any other meetings you can make and start getting involved. Go in and observe the day. If your DD is being forced to sit at a desk all day and do work beneath her level put up a huge stink! What is being done to make it fun and engaging for the children? Are the children moving around the room and engaging in a wide variety of activities or is it just worksheet after work sheet? I don't believe parents should have to resort to private school or homeschool every time something is wrong in a school. Schools NEED, particularly failing schools, active and engaged parents to make a difference. Good luck!

[Llyra]

It's 7 hours and they really don't have any down time/quiet time/rest time at all for the kids.

That's outrageous!

My DD1 was also the youngest in her kindy, and it was also a 7-hour day. But they had a full hour for lunch/lunchtime recess, plus a structured rest time, plus an unstructured indoor play time, built into the day. And even she was exhausted and worn out by the end of a day. She used to go to bed right after dinner, and sleep like a rock until I had to drag her out of bed the next morning. That lasted a few months, and then she seemed to adapt. She would still need to sleep in a few hours on a Saturday, to make up the sleep deficit. Plus, by the time Friday came, she was often an irritable crank.

I can't imagine how it would be if they didn't have any downtime.

I kept my DD1 in because even though she was tired, she was obviously LOVING school. I knew that if she didn't love it, I would bring her home in a second-- school's not mandatory here until she's six, anyway.

In your position-- I think I'd be up there observing what happens in the classroom, and asking a lot of questions, and advocating for some downtime built into the schedule. Asking kindy kids to do academic work for that length of time is not developmentally appropriate.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by meetoo

I think you should advocate for change in the school. All school age children NEED recess. Adults in the work force get several break in an 8 hour shift.

I bet part of why the school is failing is not having enough breaks in the day for the kids to be able to focus properly and also to process and absorb their learning.

Getting through a ton of material counts for nothing if they can't recall the information when they need to (e.g. for a test).

And I bet even the stuff they do know for the tests has to be relearned the next year.

[Smithie]

If homeschooling is truly not an option this year, then I'd agitate for a promotion to first grade, to see if that helps.

[Kristin0105]

Physical activity is critical for the brain. It's really important for the children to be active frequently so the brain receives enough blood and is stimulated. I would really advocate that they institute regular physical activity throughout the day. Even if it's jumping up and down and doing jumping jacks by their chairs. The children will learn more and be less tired. Sorry to hear your daughter is so sad about going to school.

[cyberfish]

Thanks, everyone, for your advice.
Well they do have 20 minutes to run and play outside after lunch, weather permitting, but that is the only recess they get. I suppose it's better than nothing. And they do have PE roughly twice a week, though their specials schedule is so wacky, once in a while they get it twice in one day.
The kindergarteners have stations so they're not sitting doing worksheets all day. But they do not have any quiet time or rest time or sit quietly to read to yourself time. They're expected to be *doing* something at all times.
So yeah, we've got cranky big time. My daughter's enthusiasm for outside of school activities, such as violin, is waning because she's so wiped out. I'm hesitant to pull her from extracurriculars because until she started school, she loved them and I think they're good for her.
Maybe she'll adapt after a few more weeks. I might see if I can talk to her teacher again. She really did seem like she wanted my daughter to thrive. I don't think the teacher is the issue, but rather general school district policies.
And they are going to start sending her to 1st grade for reading soon. I don't think I'd want her full-on 1st grade. Academically, she's more than ready but she's quite literally the youngest in the kindergarten. Some kids are a full year older than she is. So I think developmentally 1st grade would be hard for her.
Possibly kids are failing due to so much work. We also live in a high ESL district and it's against the law here for kids to test in a language other than English, even if they're newly arrived from elsewhere.
Thanks again, everyone!
I'm hoping to find a good solution soon.

[meemee]

oooh mama k is a hard time for kids. not only is that age hard but just getting used to school is hard. so i would actually put all extra-c activities on hold.

uhmmm considering the issues she has been having, first grade might not be a good fit for her. first grade is much more academic and less fun than K. differentiating is a great idea but beware. her issues will get worse in first. btw this getting used to school doesnt settle down till about 3rd grade. all kids have a hard time coming back from summer break - esp the first 3 years.

developmentally yeah see what's right for YOUR kid. not what others say. for instead dd is on the low side age wise. most of her classmates are a year older than her. however she fits in better with the older kids. so in her case grade skipping wouldnt be an issue, however academically it would. because even though she is grades ahead, she wants to have fun in school and not get too much hard work.

[Lisa1970]

I do not think it is "too much" for her. It might not be enough, or it might be a bad fit. A lot of people think that school is not for academics anymore and only for playtime and socializing, so they downplay that some children actually really want to learn. The driven children often get beaten down when sitting in class, expected to do repetitive mundane work that they mastered years earlier. I know a lot of people feel that children should only be allowed to learn what every other child their age knows and nothing else (no child left behind/every child left behind theory). But for children who are smart and driven, it destroys their self-esteem and any desire they have to learn and so on. No child should have to feel bad about being smart or academically inclined.

You could pull her out and homeschool her a few years or until you find a school that is a better fit. You could give it more time. But I would not even consider pulling her out with the idea of repeating this next year. Ever hear the saying where the definition of an idiot is someone who tries the same thing over and over again but expects a different result? I hate the term idiot, but I think that is how the saying goes.

I just think it is very important to let your child be who she is.

I hope I have helped.

[meetoo]

Are you sure they have no quiet time? My sons K is only half day and they are working their way up to 30 mins of independent reading.

[cyberfish]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970

You could pull her out and homeschool her a few years or until you find a school that is a better fit. You could give it more time. But I would not even consider pulling her out with the idea of repeating this next year. Ever hear the saying where the definition of an idiot is someone who tries the same thing over and over again but expects a different result? I hate the term idiot, but I think that is how the saying goes.

I just think it is very important to let your child be who she is.

I hope I have helped.

Heck no, we're not going to repeat this next year!

I wish I could homeschool her. We started out the year doing that but I work full time as a university professor. Daycare was expensive and not meeting her needs academically and she sure didn't want to do academics with Mommy after being bored all day at daycare. School seemed like a better solution for now. She LOVES to learn. Anything. She can focus on something that interests her with serious intensity.

The school has identified her as exceptionally gifted. Now they need to figure out what to do with her. I'm happy to help them with that process if need be. FWIW, we won't be here next year. I'm a temp and will be moving somewhere else next fall. I fear that because of her birthday, my daughter might not have made the kindergarten cutoff somewhere else and if she's not in kindy this year they'll force her to do it again next year if there's a different birthday cutoff and she hasn't already completed this grade. I suspect by next fall she'd be able to test into 2nd grade but school districts don't care about that if you don't make the birthday cutoff for K. So I'm feeling really really stuck.

My daughter wants to learn. She craves new information on anything. I totally agree I want her to be who she is and if that is someone who wants to be reading advanced books, I think she needs the opportunity to do that. I also know she's a sensitive little kid who needs regular quiet time to sit and process and she's just not getting that at school because of how the day is structured. I also don't want to put unreasonable pressure on her teacher to single her out, since the teacher has 20 kids in her class to handle on a daily basis.

I can't pull dd from extracurriculars. She loves them and they are a form of consistency as we move from place to place, a process that hopefully will end very soon.

I asked about quiet time. They said, nope. Maybe I should try to observe. But I worry if I do that my daughter will cling to me and disrupt the class.

Thanks mamas.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by cyberfish

Maybe I should try to observe. But I worry if I do that my daughter will cling to me and disrupt the class.

just do it. if she does then you know you cant continue it.

i am so sorry you guys are going thru this. your dd is absolutely right. all kids should have down time. even dd's 3rd grade gets some downtime.

for next year can you change schools?

or figure out who the teachers are in the next two grades?

sometimes the teacher makes the biggest difference. who did you talk to about quiet time?

here is another angle. try and see what happens when you volunteer. if dd is ok with it do as much as you can this year. the teachers are overwhelmed and need a LOT of help. sadly what happens then is the sqeaky wheel gets the grease.

what i did with my dd was take 'mental days' off. when i had time to spend hte whole day with dd and we'd play hookey from school and do fun things. beginning of hte school year we'd take at least a day off a week. and then some to almost none. i did that at K with the teachers full knowledge. we changed schools in first and again did the same. the teacher had actually more respect for me for doing that. she said it herself. we even played with teh rules. dd go in for enough time so the school doesnt lose money and then we'd go do something fun - like the museum or a hike or a movie.

those mental breaks did dd a LOT Of good. she told her teacher at K i come to school to party and go home to study. she has maintained that attitude even today. we do A LOT of afterschool stuff to meet dd's academic needs. my friends help out too. me being in school fulltime helps her out too as she goes to labs and other events with my friends.

another thing that also helped dd was working with her in general about life. we both are a team and i share a lot of myself with her too. my poor baby at 2 learnt that even though she HATED some stuff, we both did, neither of us had any choice. she didnt want to be in dc. i didnt want her to be in dc for full TEN hours. we both went thru hell. yet it taught her that sometimes life is just not fair. i am sad she had to learn that lesson so early, but i see it has really helped her deal with life. that this is the way life is. try to deal the best you can. if it is too much then we'll have to find something else.

and that's how we live our life each day. dd doesnt care about school. she loves her teachers and friends. schools are a place to plant new things in her head - like the civil movement and then come home and research that with mommy. her favourite essay to read was malcolm x's essay on conking his hair.

i think those trails have really bonded us together giving me the courage to try new things which many dont see as appropriate as a parent. even here.

so what i am saying is this is not JUST about school. so much else is involved and so we have to look at everything to help our children.

i recall tolerating school myself and running back home to play with my friends. that is almost identical to the life dd has. now by 3rd grade she breezes thru the day till she can come home.

[peaceful_mama]

NO downtime in KINDERGARTEN? ONE 20 min. recess??? No. They don't even TAKE tests in kindy.....at least not here.

I think what I would do is be an advocate for change while you wait to see if this is an adjustment phase or what, and try to find things that work for her...before you 'give up' entirely.

My DS's school starts at 8 AM, has a 15 min. recess around 10, they have lunch at noon followed by 20 mins. outside---20 minutes eating, 20 out. They can stay and finish lunch if they need to, some kids do actually do it. The teacher in charge also about 5 mins before the end calls their attention back to their food.

In K, they also have a 20 min. rest break laying on mats after the lunch recess.

Then they get a 15 min. afternoon recess outside.

The only time they don't have all 3 recesses is on gym days when ONE of the 15 min. recesses they are in the gym instead. That is 2 days a week.

So *every day* they have 3 breaks--and the lunch break, with the rest time, ends up being a bit over an hour.

I bet your education assistants in the district get better break schedules than your kid...when I was an EA I got 2 15's and a 30 min. lunch.

[cyberfish]

And it gets worse.
They're adding more (boring) worksheet time to the day. I pick my daughter up, she gets in the car, and she starts to cry.

I've spoken with her teacher. She told me she can't deal with the gifted ones because she has so many who are not even at grade level and they require most of her focus.

So we have the bad, bad combo of gifted child with too easy work, and too much too easy work. I asked if they play in the classroom. No. I asked if they get to go outside other than the 20 minutes after lunch. No.
It's work, work, and then more seatwork. For all the kids.

I asked the teacher nicely for some harder work for my dd. She went off on me about how yes my child is advanced in many ways but in others she's right on target for K. Okaaaay, then. This is in direct contrast to the first meeting where she was telling me how my daughter had blown away all their assessments and how gifted she was, etc.

I don't want my daughter there, especially if she comes home crying. Sometimes she just sobs and can't really articulate why she's crying.

I don't want more work. I want less, way less, but more challenging. But mostly I want my daughter to enjoy those hours of her day, not dread them. She's not even tolerating it any more and I honestly don't know what I'd do with her while I work if I pull her.

[rachelsmama]

hugs

If the alternative to school is daycare could you look around in your local homeschooling community to see if there is anybody with similar values to yours who would be willing to provide in-home child-care?

[One_Girl]

I think you should request a move to a higher grade or to a gifted and talented class if they have that for her age in your district. E-mail your request to the teacher and the principal stating what her test scores were and how badly this year is going. It is really hard to get a kid moved up and you really have to push here, but I think it is worth it if your child doesn't enjoy the class they are in. It sounds like your dd may benefit from moving up if she is so far ahead of the other kids. I don't think that will cut out the worksheets, but they may be more challenging and that may help. If your dd was a napper until recently it may be that she is going to have a hard time no matter what you do with public school. An earlier bedtime may help.

I also recommend complaining about the lack of recess. Only 20 minutes after lunch isn't acceptable for any child in elementary school. Our school district requires a minimum of 2 recess periods and a 45 minute lunch (15 eating, 30 outside) for full day K-4. Part day K gets 10 minutes and 5&6 drop one 15 minute recess but keep the others. This is in addition to the specials like PE, Music, and Library twice a week.

[squimp]

Is there another K classroom with a teacher who might be better at differentiating? The teacher sounds like she is struggling. In my K experience, the teacher can make a huge difference as to whether the kids' needs are being met.

And I just want to offer my sympathy. I can't imagine having my daughter break down in tears like that all the time. I would want a meeting with the principal to understand how the school could meet my child's needs. You may want to post in the gifted forum.

[MsBirdie]

Your story reminded me of my friend who has an extremely gifted DS. He was bored and went thru hell until 3rd grade, when the gifted program kicked in. Up until that grade, gifted kids were out of luck. So many gifted kids ended up leaving to charters or to HS, that the district finally created a gifted school for K-6.

I just feel that gifted children are Special Needs also , and don't the states have a requirement to meet those needs as well?

I like the idea of finding a HS mama who need to supplement income while HSing her own and can challenge DD while giving her down time (when mm can HS her kids)

or are there charter school options or a gifted program at another school in your district?