Reverse Engineering Recipe Help

[kjbrown92]

So we LOVE the Namaste pizza crust. The bag makes 2 crusts. The texture is fantastic just as bread, or as pizza crust, and if I could figure out how to make it, I want to do a sweet breakfast version like a cinnamon bread. It's expensive. And my SIL can't have it because she's intolerant to onion and garlic. She was excited when I told her about it, and said she could just leave "the spice packet" out, and I told her they were all mixed in. So I've now made about 18 batches of this stuff. And it just isn't rising. I can't figure it out.

So here's the deal. You take 1 1/2 c. of the mix. And add 1 1/4 c. water and 1 tsp. olive oil. So your ingredients have to equal 1 1/2 c. dry stuff.

Here are the ingredients: brown rice flour, tapioca flour, arrowroot flour, xanthan gum, granulated garlic, cream of tartar, salt, baking soda, Italian seasoning, granulated onion, ascorbic acid.

I'm using karaya gum instead of xanthan gum since I can't find it without corn, and I just bought ascorbic acid (unbuffered) today at the compounding pharmacy. I'm not going to tell you my ratios since mine haven't been working. What would you think the amounts are?

Help!?!?!?!?

[lil_miss_understood]

Could you tell me what you're doing so I know what NOT to do?
Any problems besides rising? Texture? Crumb? Crust?

[lil_miss_understood]

Ok, so here's what I'm thinking:
1/2 tsp salt
3/4 tsp baking soda
1 tsp cream of tartar
1/2 tsp ascorbic acid
1 tsp xanthan gum (not sure of conversion to karaya offhand)

Altogether, these ingredients = approx. 1 tablespoon of "stuff". Which leaves 1 1/4 cups + 1 tablespoon of flours. Assuming that they're going with the normal ratio of 1 flour : 1 starch, that means we're left with:
1/2 cup 3 tablespoons brown rice flour
5 tablespoons (1/4 cup + 1 tablespoon) tapioca starch
5 tablespoons arrowroot

[beadmama]

No ideas but if you guys figure this out you are awesome!

[kjbrown92]

I'm currently at:
3/4 tsp. salt
1 tsp. baking soda
1 1/2 tsp. cream of tartar
1 tsp. karaya gum
1 tsp. olive oil
1/4 tsp. ascorbic acid
Put all that in the 1.5 c. measure. Fill to 1/3 c. with starches, then add the rest with brown rice flour.

That's not giving me any poof (and the one they get is about 1/3-1/2" thick with great texture). And it's coming out all crackly on top. It was more cracker like before I started trying to add more acid (first vinegar, now ascorbic acid). And I can taste the baking soda in mine.

It's 450F for 22-25 minutes, if anyone wants to try a version. This is more effort than I put into the coconut milk yogurt (or maybe because I figured that out on the 9th or 10th batch, I gave up trying to improve it). And it's not like we haven't eaten all of these batches. Either they're dipped into spaghetti sauce, or today I used it as sandwich bread even though it didn't rise much for my chicken salad sandwich.

[kjbrown92]

And what does arrowroot starch give you that tapioca starch doesn't? I have that up at the lake, but not here, so I've just been doing all tapioca starch here when I try it. Doesn't seem to make a difference either way (taste or texture) no matter what I do, except it keeps getting worse. It feels like it needs more structure, if that makes any sense, so now I'm wondering if I need more gum.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

And what does arrowroot starch give you that tapioca starch doesn't? I have that up at the lake, but not here, so I've just been doing all tapioca starch here when I try it. Doesn't seem to make a difference either way (taste or texture) no matter what I do, except it keeps getting worse. It feels like it needs more structure, if that makes any sense, so now I'm wondering if I need more gum.

Between your comments of it needing "more structure" and the cracked top, I would say you need more starch.
I'm not entirely certain of the different properties between arrowroot and tapioca. I'll go grab my Bette Hagman Bread book and see if she lists both.

eta: I *do* remember that arrowroot breaks down at high temperatures where tapioca doesn't, which would cause it to help with rising but then give a softer texture afterwards, when it broke down. Perhaps?

[lil_miss_understood]

Ok, so the only difference I'm seeing between arrowroot and tapioca in my Allergy Self-Help Cookbook (Bette wasn't very detailed) is that tapioca first gets "rubbery"/chewy before breaking down while arrowroot just breaks down from prolonged high heat. I can see how that difference would make them useful for making awesome textures in bread products.

eta: Also, if you can still taste baking soda, you have too much of it for the amount of acid you're using. I would consider increasing the ascorbic acid by 1/4 tsp.

[kjbrown92]

The only problem is when I did more starch to flour, I got that gummier texture in the middle. And there's no gumminess in the Namaste one. Maybe I'll wait until this weekend since my arrowroot is up at the lake. Of course, I think I'm out of tapioca up there... see how much fun this grocery budget thing is!?!?! I'm going to try your recipe, Jacq, and see how it changes things.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

The only problem is when I did more starch to flour, I got that gummier texture in the middle. And there's no gumminess in the Namaste one. Maybe I'll wait until this weekend since my arrowroot is up at the lake. Of course, I think I'm out of tapioca up there... see how much fun this grocery budget thing is!?!?! I'm going to try your recipe, Jacq, and see how it changes things.

I just bet that it won't be as gummy with the arrowroot instead of some of the tapioca.

[rhesp1212]

If you're not getting a good enough rise on it, I would do a 1:2 ration of your leavening agents....meaning 1 tsp. baking soda and 2 tsp cream of tartar. In my experience of baking breads with those things for my own son, the more cream of tartar you add, the more it seems to rise. So maybe try increasing the cream of tartar if it's not rising enough for you. I don't even add an acid to my breads and they rise quite a bit!

[kjbrown92]

I tried 2 tsp. cream of tartar to 1 tsp. baking soda... it's almost like it got too bubbly and broke up because not enough structure. I also tried baking powder. And baking soda and vinegar combo. It seems like it ought to be easier with that many ingredients.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by rhesp1212

If you're not getting a good enough rise on it, I would do a 1:2 ration of your leavening agents....meaning 1 tsp. baking soda and 2 tsp cream of tartar. In my experience of baking breads with those things for my own son, the more cream of tartar you add, the more it seems to rise. So maybe try increasing the cream of tartar if it's not rising enough for you. I don't even add an acid to my breads and they rise quite a bit!

cream of tartar is also known as tartaric acid...

[chlobo]

I just read that Betty Hagman's crust is supposed to be really good. Have you tried that?

[kjbrown92]

What's the Betty Hagman recipe?

Jacq, I tried yours and (1) it didn't equal 1 1/2 cups of dry stuff. And now I remember why I was doing more rice flour and less starch. It comes out way too runny and is more cracker like. I forgot that's what I started with (1:1 ratio of flour:starch). So do I add more gum? more/ Less flour? more/less starch? I used it for a fried egg sandwich and DD2 munched on it while we were waiting for the bus, so it's not like it's wasted, but 20 batches and I feel like I'm still at square one.

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

What's the Betty Hagman recipe?

Jacq, I tried yours and (1) it didn't equal 1 1/2 cups of dry stuff. And now I remember why I was doing more rice flour and less starch. It comes out way too runny and is more cracker like. I forgot that's what I started with (1:1 ratio of flour:starch). So do I add more gum? more/ Less flour? more/less starch? I used it for a fried egg sandwich and DD2 munched on it while we were waiting for the bus, so it's not like it's wasted, but 20 batches and I feel like I'm still at square one.

Ugh. You're right. I was missing about 1/8 cup of stuff. What is UP with my math lately?!
Hmm.
I haven't tried any of her stuff, Carren. Most of the recipes I was looking at included nuts, milk powder and/or eggs, so although I bought her book, I haven't actually used it.

[chlobo]

I don't actually have the recipe. I just found a reference to it on a website

I first tried Bette Hagman’s gluten-free pizza crust recipe in her book, The Gluten Free Gourmet Cooks Comfort Foods. I actually didn’t follow the recipe and ended up kneading it like regular dough. What turned out was an amazing crust that I turned into a calzone, and was thick and doughy like regular crust. I was impressed and sold on the idea that gluten-free pizza crust was not only possible, but delicious too. My husband even loved it. I will be doing a separate post about this recipe very soon.

http://www.heartofcooking.com/2009/0...e-pizza-crust/

ETA: I don't have that book but I do have another of Betty's books. I am going to post just the ingredients for the recipes she has:

Thick Yeast Free Pizza
1 cup potato starch flour
1/2 cup tapioca
1/2 constarch
1/2 cup dry milk powder
1 tablespoon baking powder
1/2 tsp salt
2 tablespoon shortening
3/4 cup water

Jill's Quick & Easy Pizza Crust
1/4 cup milk
2 eggs
1/3 cup cornstarch
2/3 cup rice
1/4 tsp xantham gum
1 tsp salt
1/4 cup shortening

Ok, I just found her recipe in Google Books. Maybe her recipe will reveal something about the proportions

http://books.google.com/books?id=3Lm...page&q&f=false

[chlobo]

I just wanted to mention that Amazon has the crusts. They are $25.60 for six bags of crusts. If you do subscribe & save the price goes down to $21.76 or $3.62 per bag. Each bag makes 2 crusts so that's actually not a bad price.

You can always cancel subscribe & save after you've purchased.

[kjbrown92]

Amazon is where I got my first batch of 6 bags... I'm down to my last bag... I make about 5 versions of mine then one of theirs to remind myself what my goal is! It's this dreaded grocery budget!! Maybe I'll splurge with my allowance and hoard them all.

[chlobo]

Oh, I forgot about the grocery budget.

Then keep on trucking. It'll be totally awesome for you to make a copy-cat recipe. Were there any clues in the recipes I listed above?

BTW, FWIW, I found one recipe that said not to use baking soda/powder for pizza crust but did not say why.