ap not working out so well

[Adelio]

So I just found this forum. I did AP w/ all my children and I can say that eveyrthing was very instinctual and easy going. I had a dr sears book and followed it. I had VERY few problems in the toddler years, and I chalked it all up to ap.
Now my dd is 8 and I feel like I have dr jekyll and mr hyde. She behaves well at school, but at home....she yells at me ALL THE TIME. She keeps telling me how awful I am. She hates me... And....I"M MEAN. She even has her little brother calling me "mean mommy".

And it's over things like, "We're having salmon for dinner" when she wanted pizza (which we had the night before). Some things are frustrating for her...like a bedtime (which she desperately needs or her behavior goes off a cliff).

I really didn't expect this. How did this happen? I thought if you met their needs when they were infants, it would be a lot easier when they are older. We use gd, but others are suggesting that we spank her for being mouthy. I don't want to do that, but I cannot be yelled at for 90 minutes a day by my daughter. I say things like, "YOu sound upset. I'm sorry I have to be mean about bedtime". BUt then I use ALphie Kohn, "I'm not going to explain why there is a bedtime anymore. I've already answered that one."

If there are other threads on here that address this, please let me know. Thanks, Adele

[mom2happy]

Just wanna say, Im in the same boat. My DD is 7 and she says horrible things to me as well. It hits me like a brick because I have raised her this way.
Sometimes I feel like it created a monster and maybe people are right (that it spoils them). I know in my heart that it is not true though.
Sometimes I feel that our relationship is so solid that she just has no worries that I could reject her or stop loving her. Maybe that's why she doesnt "need" the self control with me and has it with every one else.
I dont know- havent figured it out yet. To confuse matters more- I raised DS the same way and he is like my little knight in shining armor.

DD told me today she hates me, to shut up (she learned that one in 2nd grade-she hasnt ever heard those words spoken in this house)
This was because I told her to clean up her papers. She absolutely refused and they they were blowing away in the wind outside. I told her they would blow away and if they littered up the yard I'd have to throw them in the garbage- she flipped.
I think this is a rough patch we are working through and if I stay calm we will be ok, but boy is it hard to deal with.
Sometimes I dont even want to be the one who has to tell her what to do, but she's 7 and needs to be parented.
I wonder if our situations are alike?

[madskye]

My 5 year old has been throwing crazy tantrums for two years now. I just read "The Explosive Child" and it really helped me. It's been almost two months now and things have really calmed down. It's basically a script for how to handle your kid when they are about to explode/exploding and how to help them handle their emotions and resolve things on their own.

This stuff:

I say things like, "YOu sound upset. I'm sorry I have to be mean about bedtime". BUt then I use ALphie Kohn, "I'm not going to explain why there is a bedtime anymore. I've already answered that one."

Basically, you are talking at her--instead, have a conversation. What I've found is that even if it takes 10 minutes to talk about bedtime and discuss it rationally with them, it's a lot better than having a little person scream in your face for 45 minutes. It's almost like if I can take the step back to really talk to her and let go of the outcome, it resolves itself much faster. (Does that sound way too groovy?!) Anyway, I recommend the book! The open ended conversation starter they recommend is "Hey, I notice you're getting upset...what's up?" so that you can help the child sort through their feelings before it all falls apart. And sometimes I then compromise, but I feel okay about it, because she had the chance to talk to me respectfully and ask for some kind of modification to whaterver I had planned/was trying to do. She didn't achieve it by screaming--she used her reason.

[mamazee]

Kids can get moody no matter how they're parented, particularly as they approach the tween years.

Sometimes, with the bedtime issue and that kind of thing, I find it's easier to say how I feel and see if she has a solution. "I need you to be functioning during the day for school, so I need you in bed at a time that will get you enough sleep. How can we make that happen but still make you happy about bedtime?" See if she has a solution. The older they are, the more autonomy they want, and including her in problem-solving might make her feel better. I wouldn't have that discussion at bedtime as she's tired then.

Then the same stuff that helps with toddlers having tantrums can help. Empathizing. "I know you like pizza. I like pizza too." Or "I hear that you're upset that we aren't having pizza again." And maybe leave it at that. Sometimes they want to vent but don't need a solution.

Also, something I bring up often because it made such a big difference in my dd's behavior, is that starting the day with a breakfast based on protein, like eggs, makes my dd's whole day go better than if she starts the day with a breakfast based on grains, like cereal. Really, all the way to bedtime the day is smoother. When we switched to protein-based breakfasts and tried to include a bit of protein in snacks, her behavior made a huge change, and you could try that and see if your dd is helped as well. Yesterday we were running late and she had a granola bar and an apple, which we NEVER have as breakfast for this reason, and yesterday was the first bad day we've had in a long time. She came home crying and saying the teacher hates her, and went to bed arguing with me, and that's a rare occurrence. Usually she talks about how nice her teacher is and how great school went and is happy at bedtime.

[mom2happy]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Sometimes, with the bedtime issue and that kind of thing, I find it's easier to say how I feel and see if she has a solution. "I need you to be functioning during the day for school, so I need you in bed at a time that will get you enough sleep. How can we make that happen but still make you happy about bedtime?" See if she has a solution. The older they are, the more autonomy they want, and including her in problem-solving might make her feel better. I wouldn't have that discussion at bedtime as she's tired then.

This almost always works for us too. When I give my DD the tools she loves to figure out a way to make both of us happy. There are those times, though when I just need her to comply and dont have time for a discussion.
Like:" Time to get your backpack, the bus is coming". She freaks out because she doesnt like leaving and as she is going to the bus calls me horrible and tells me she hates me. This only happens like once a month for this particular event, but it's really hard to take.
I know exactly how you feel. At first I was flabbergasted when she started saying these things. I am remaining calm about it instead of getting emotional and angry (like I was at first). She is still doing it, but the turn around time is getting much faster. She is realizing when she talks to me like that I dont want to be near her. She needs time to think about her feelings and I'm trying so hard to help her cope with disappointment with out lashing out.
It is HARD work.
Also, when your DD does this I think its better not to respond. It only escalates for us if I even say "That is not acceptable".
They KNOW it's not acceptable. Thats why they are doing it. I think it makes them feel strong in a situation that they feel weak and helpless.
It sure isn't easy. You are not alone.

[Tsubaki]

You know, I'm all for being understanding of your childrens' feelings and hearing them out, but I don't think you should have to tolerate them yelling at you or being rude.

Maybe you could say something like, "I hear that you're upset, but you may not yell at me. We can discuss this when you're calm."

I think it's also fine to ask her to leave a public area of the house, like the living room or kitchen, and calm down in her room if you establish that "we don't yell at each other in this family." You all have a right to be in public areas of your house without someone yelling at you or being rude to you.

A wise mother I know reminded me that we are also modeling self-respect for our children, and it's important to show them how to stand up for your own rights. But even beyond that, you're a person and you have rights too. You can say, "I don't deserve to be spoken to like that."

>>"YOu sound upset. I'm sorry I have to be mean about bedtime".

I'm not wild about this. I don't think you're really a mean mom. You don't sound like one to me. You sound like a very gentle mom who is genuinely concerned about your daughters' feelings but wants to maintain some reasonable limits for everyone's sake. That isn't mean and you don't have to call yourself mean.

How about: "I am not mean. I am doing my job. I won't let you call me names."

I would let her scream in her room. And when she is calm, you can debrief and do some collaborative problem solving.

[erin_brycesmom]

My oldest is 7.5 and I have found that it's way harder when they are out of toddlerhood. The thing is, we can't just meet their needs as infants and then be done. We have to continue to meet their needs at every age....only IME, figuring out those needs as they get older is harder. I think this is especially true with children who go to school out of the home because so much is going on during those 7+ hours that they are away and we have little influence on that and little understanding of what may effect them while they are there.

I have noticed a change in my son's moods since school has started and I tried probing a bit because I was worried about the possibility of being bullied. I'm glad that I did because it opened my eyes a bit. He's not being bullied, but I found out that his teacher "yells" a lot. Not at my son, but at other students...the ones who frequently misbehave and even the ones who are "in the middle" as my son described. He's afraid of slipping out of his "perfect" behavior and going in the middle and being yelled at. Beyond that, he also has a hard time just with the exposure of the way these children act and the way that the teacher responds.

Sorry, I know I'm going OT here but my point is that there is probably a reason. Unless children are just evil, there is a reason they express themselves in these ways. I know it's hard but I would try to think of these expresses in the same way as an infant crying. It's still the expression of a need. What can be done to work towards figuring out what those needs are?

[pinky]

Just wanted to throw out there that IME, 7-8 is just a tough age all around. All of my friends with kids that age found their kids verrry challenging, as did I. So a lot of this may be more developmental than due to any kind of parenting.

If it's any consolation, at 9.5 my dd is now her delightful self again.

If she'd doing fine at school but having trouble at home, it may be that school is stressful and exhausting, and home is her safe place to let off some steam. Which is actually a good sign, that she feels safe and loved--she can yell at you because you'll love her no matter what, but if she yells at a friend or a teacher there will be serious consequences. Does that make any sense?

[3xMama]

I don't have too much to add to this, not having a child that age. I just wanted to pull a few things out.

Telling her to go to bed doesn't make you mean. It makes you her mother who is concerned with looking out for her best intrests. I'd call it tough love at the worst. You're also saying to her that you are mean and bedtime is something mean people do to other people.

There is always a cause for such behavior. And it could just be that she feels safe with you. Its not "you" she's mad at. She's upset because she's having a hard time understanding the new math she's learning. She can't freak out at school and it comes out at you when you tell her your dinner plans. If that's the case its a compliment, really. A really really hard to take compliment!

Also, spend some time with her discussing how to control her temper. I really wish my parents had done this with me moreso at that age. It would've helped me out a lot more as a teen and even now.

[LynnS6]

Is she getting enough sleep? My kids are much less able to control themselves when they're overtired.

What's her diet like? Does she get enough complex carbs and protein?

What do you do to connect with her NOW? 8 year olds have the same need for connection that infants do, just not as intensely. I would highly recommend the book "Playful Parenting" for helping to establish this.

I've noticed that my 9 year old has developed a new 'routine' for bedtime. We read stories on our bed. Usually, after stories we get up and I tuck him into his bed. Well, lately, he's been crawling under my covers and rolling over. When I say "it's time to go to bed" he says "I'm in bed." When I say "it's time to get into YOUR bed" he replies (with a smile on his face) "this is my bed". What he's really saying, I think, is "Mom, I need some more time with you". My schedule and his schedule are such right now that I'm not seeing him that much. So, I let him lie next to me for a bit. Then I start to gently tickle him to get out of bed and eventually I chase him into his room. He's 4'10" and gangly, but he needs the attention as much as he did when he was 24" and round.

Finally, what do you do when she starts to yell at you? Our dd has times when she loses control. She's free to do that. She's NOT free to make the rest of the family miserable while she does that. So, we send her to her room. Or, I go to my room and shut the door. At 8, she's old enough to start to learn to control her outbursts, or at least take it elsewhere if she can't.

You're right that you shouldn't have to be yelled at for 90 minutes by your daughter. You also have a right to be spoken to politely. Remember that GD doesn't mean no boundaries. It doesn't mean no consequences for your actions. Yes, there's debate about what kinds of consequences are best, but that's a different issue.

So, what are appropriate consequences, in your mind, for rude language and rude behavior? How can you help her learn a bit more control?

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

You're right that you shouldn't have to be yelled at for 90 minutes by your daughter. You also have a right to be spoken to politely. Remember that GD doesn't mean boundaries. It doesn't mean no consequences for your actions. Yes, there's debate about what kinds of consequences are best, but that's a different issue.

I agree. We do have bounderies and consequences. Consequences in my home are usually helping me or dh around the house.


If my dd is crabby and yelling at me I give her an earlier bedtime.

"I am sorry you do not like this but if you are treating me like this I am going to assume you are tired and need more sleep."

or "When you treat the rest of the family with respect you will be permitted more privileges"

She has been great lately. She is allowed to stay up a bit later if she is reading a book but if she melts down it is back to earlier bedtime again, or I have had her take naps a couple times because she was overtired during the day.

[Starflower]

I want to second LynnS6's recommendation of "Playful Parenting." I read a lot of books and hadn't picked this one up previously because I just thought it was about being playful in general. But it really helped me understand how I can reconnect with DD. I'd used playfulness as a distraction technique before, but now I can see how I am able to reforge a connection with DD and it's making a big difference. In both her behavior and my own.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Also, something I bring up often because it made such a big difference in my dd's behavior, is that starting the day with a breakfast based on protein, like eggs, makes my dd's whole day go better than if she starts the day with a breakfast based on grains, like cereal. Really, all the way to bedtime the day is smoother. When we switched to protein-based breakfasts and tried to include a bit of protein in snacks, her behavior made a huge change, and you could try that and see if your dd is helped as well. Yesterday we were running late and she had a granola bar and an apple, which we NEVER have as breakfast for this reason, and yesterday was the first bad day we've had in a long time. She came home crying and saying the teacher hates her, and went to bed arguing with me, and that's a rare occurrence. Usually she talks about how nice her teacher is and how great school went and is happy at bedtime.

I'm totally going to try that!

[EdnaMarie]

Welcome to MDC!

There are tons of threads on this.

My children are still small, but I simply don't take that. I walk away. I have locks on my kitchen door and if anyone in my family speaks to me like that, I leave and take a time-out.

I use the same words with my four-year-old and my soon-to-be-separated-husband:

"I don't let people speak to me that way. You can come speak to me when you can speak with respect." Then I leave. It sucks but yeah.

I hope you find some answers here. No one answer works for everybody.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Adelio

"YOu sound upset. I'm sorry I have to be mean about bedtime". BUt then I use ALphie Kohn, "I'm not going to explain why there is a bedtime anymore. I've already answered that one."

This doesn't really sit well with me (the part where you refer to you being mean). It's almost like you are reaffirming her belief that what you are asking her to do *is* unreasonable and you are mean for insisting on it. You don't sound mean at all!

Like others have said, you can (and should!) definitely have boundaries with GD! GD can include gentle consequences for unnacceptable behavior. There is a HUGE range of GD- if what you are doing now isn't working, you can change some things and still be GD. You can be more strict, less strict, use time outs, use related consequences, not use any punishments at all...it really just depends on you, your beliefs about kids and discipline, and your kids.

My oldest is only 6yo, so I can't really speak from experience as far as how to deal with the rudeness at your dd's age.

Have you read Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf? I found it really helpful for setting boundaries and enforcing them without resorting to punishments.

[Hokulele]

- I need a lot of this advice!!

[lookatreestar]

yes, high protein for breakfast and right before bed helped me as a kid.