My friends child...

[mommariffic]

I don't know where to put this

Okay so I don't know how to approach this, but I seriously think there's something wrong with my friends child. She's...emotionless, which sounds odd but seriously that's the only way I can describe it.

She's 3, almost 4 and is somewhat violent. I understand kids smack/hit/act out [my own 3 year old included!] but this girl does things with this completely blank expression on her face [I caught her at our playdate ramming another child with a broom and when I said we don't do that she stared at me but seemed like she was looking well...past me?]

She seems to mimic behavior, I've seen it happen. Like she will watch kids hug/high five and do it to herself a little before engaging. I mean honestly it's like the behavior of a sociopath or something, it's very scary. I've tried many times to offer love/support however I think the mother needs a heads up but I don't know how to say "I think your daughter has some issues.." without sounding like a total A-hole. I know she's young, 4 and all but I'm afraid her mom has no clue - especially since she's busy with another young child. She does correct any aggresive behavior but it's more than that, it's just the lack of emotion whether it's regret for hurting another child, or anything. She is like a robot.

She is also very, very bright and verbal so I know she understands "no.." I also know she comes from an AP background and I'm almost 100% certain there's no abuse [I am good friends with her mother, and her little sister is very, very well adjusted]


What would you do? Am I out of line and let it go?

[oaktreemama]

Wow what a hard situation. I don't really know what to tell you. I am trying to think about it as if I were the Mom and you came to me-how would I react?

Maybe you could use the broom incident. Say, 'You know, when I saw Jane hit Emma with the broom and intervened, Jane seemed to not hear me or focus on me. Is she feeling ok?"

Kind of wimpy I admit but this is such a dicey situation as you know. That said, it is scary to see children who aren't acting "right" and I do know that early intervention generally predicts the best outcome regardless of whether it is simply teaching empathy or some kind of developmental disorder.

[ErinYay]

If friends notice, the parents do, too.

Please, for everyone's sake, do not use words and phrases like "something's wrong with her," "sociopath," "scary," and "like a robot," to describe a preschool child. (Or, any child, really.)

If this little girl has developmental or neurological issues, her parents and physician have already taken note. It's not up to you to enlighten these parents that their daughter is a scary robotic sociopath who has something wrong with her.

And, yes, I know you wouldn't use those words to her parents, but if that's how you feel about her, it'll come through.

(This may seem harsh, but as a happy healthy Aspieish adult with a birth-daughter who has ASD, this was a pretty upsetting post to read.)

[MeepyCat]

Sociopath is a big judgment to heap on a four year-old, but the behavior you're seeing could well be consistent with autism or an autism spectrum issue. And if so, how heartbreaking to see her trying to practice "normal" interaction by herself before approaching other people - it sounds like maybe she can see that she's different and she's trying to figure out how to bridge the gap.

If I were seeing this, I would approach the other kid's mom from the angle that the child seems to have a lot of trouble with normal social interaction, and to be working very hard at it. Something like "You know, I saw Jane practicing high-fiving herself the other day, before she approached other kids to do it. It seems like she's having some trouble with social interaction. Is there anything that we can do while we're hanging out with you guys that might make things easier for her?"

[pbjmama]

I think what your friend probably needs is someone to be kind and gentle to her and her daughter. Your friend is a generally good and smart parent, I'm sure. Read your post back and put yourself in her shoes.

[ChetMC]

Not With A Ten Foot Pole

I would not touch this with a ten foot pole. Let it go.

I've had people ASK me if I thought there kid was normal, and every time I gave the "wrong" answer (read: not what the parented wanted to hear). Any time somebody asks your opinion of their kid being normal or not you should proceed with extreme caution. And for the most part, if they don't ask, you should keep your mouth shut.

Kids often act differently around people outside their family. They often act differently outside of their own home. You may not have the whole picture.

I agree with pbjmama. Just be a kind and gentle friend to this woman.

[alfabetsoup]

DD has a little friend with some behavioural issues, also can be quite aggressive and does the blank look thing. They went to preschool together last year at a private school and are in (UK equivalent) kindergarten at different public schools now. The new school is really fabulous, they identified her extra needs right away and put some strategies in place to help her. And she is so much better--I don't think the preschool was that helpful and more importantly, I think she's matured a bit. We had a playdate the other day and I was dreading it, but it was really nice, everybody played happily, no tears or screaming!!

As other posters have said, her parents and HCP will be aware of any behavioural issues. If her mom decides to discuss them with you, just be supportive and say any nice thing you can think of about her daughter! Parents with difficult children get very tired of hearing negative comments.

[madskye]

Nope, I wouldn't say anything.

DD's BFF was kind of violent. We could play together for about 45 minutes and have a blast, and then it would go south and BFF would hit or push or punch. It was honestly alarming. I love the mom, I love the little girl--for the first 45 minutes this was a charming kid! I did have my worries and wonders about her. I just listened to the mom and offered insight or resources as asked. Told her she was a great mom for hanging in there and showing her daughter how to behave.

But you know what? Now they are 5 and half and BFF is just an awesome little girl. Physicality was something she needed to master and now she has. Some kids are definitely more gentle/violent and empathetic or not than others, naturally, but now in hindsight--it doesn't make it anything more than developmental.

The only way I'd advise bringing it up is if you feel the child is violent and the parents are ignoring it--because that's very difficult to party to.

[chattyprincess]

Wow I am shocked that so many people think that the parents notice. My bff and I had dd's 1 week apart. From the start her dd M was a bit different, not enough to think anything about but just enough to notice if you had seen and been exposed to children with problems. I never thought she was autistic but always thought there was something off with the way she behaved and acted. I agreed with my dh to just not discuss it, we thought it was just a lack of interaction with parents and other children. (keep in mind these are our bff's we saw how they parented and were thier neighbors basically this whole time). My friends mom finaly said something to her when m was 3 they asked the doc, showed the doc video of the way she acted and the doc said nothing was wrong. Fast forward a year they are now 4, at this point any stranger on the street can tell there is something wrong with m but the parents still are not noticing. They move states and get a new doc who says she needs to have a big evaluation etc and my bff is shocked, calls in tears and is apalled that no one has mentioned this before and that its just been pushed under the rug. She truly did not notice and had her doc telling her that all was right in the world when in reality she is going on 4 months of intensive testing to figure out what is going on with her. I am upset with myself that I never said anything, this all could have been dealt with so much sooner if I had just had the nerve to say something.
sometimes people just don't notice, or want to notice. Sometimes the docs just don't notice or sometimes they aren't trained enough to notice the little things that someone around them often does. I am not sure how to approach it but I would 110% bring it to her attention in someway. If my child was doing something like this as her parent who loves and adores her I need to know so that I can find a way to handle it.
Maybe the next time you are around her and her dd and she does something like the broom incident ask the mom "does she always give you that blank look when you correct bad behavior?" maybe the child shows remorse later or hold it in internally and only a parent would be aware of this. Maybe laugh and say something like "oh isn't it cute how "xyz" is copying what the other kids are doing by hugging herself first before doing it to someone else" maybe the child is a perfectionist and wants to "do it right" and only a parent would know this as well. you never know unless you ask and I would be eternally grateful if someone brought my lo's odd behavior to my attention. Sometimes parents just don't realize that its different or odd...

[mommariffic]

I am not trying to offend anyone, and note: I have several friends with kids on the spectrum, and my friend who once told me that it was someone else who mentioned something about her son, the only way she realized there was something was up.

And..the reason I'm posting is because her parents have no idea. None. Zip, which is why I don't want to see her fall under the wayside because no one has said anything. I may loose a friend but I'd rather open eyes to a child's behavior than have them not realize it.

[mommariffic]

..and again, the reason I'm posting is because I'm concerned this behavior will get ignored and this little girl will actually hurt someone or hurt herself. I gave a few examples, but the one's I didn't give are far more aggressive/abnormal than I feel comfortable even typing. Yes it may be offensive to the mum if I tell her what I think, but I think I SHOULD and I'm asking how I can address this.

[pregnant@40]

It immediately reminded me of a child w/ Asperger's that I know. If development is atypical, it will eventually be discovered by the parents (if not already). Please don't say anything to the mother, for you may lose a friendship. If it turns out that her child does have challenges, she'll need your support and friendship more later than pointed comments about her child's development now.

Over the years I've witnessed a few friends discover behavioral or emotional issues & diagnoses w/ their kids. Sometimes things require intervention, but sometimes things work themselves out. Every kid is different. It's been my position to just get to know a kid & see her/him as an individual, with no thought of diagnoses, but to be a listening ear if a mom does eventually need to talk to someone about her child. I'm not a professional, so it's not my responsibility to figure out someone else's child or point out what I believe to be red flags. Sometimes parents are in denial, for no one wants to see their own kid as having an illness or challenge, but eventually parents do discover the truth. It's inevitable as the kid starts to enter preschool and kindergarten. Then the system points them to the needed resources, and early childhood is still timely enough for effective intervention.

And just from your description (and especially w/ the AP background), it sounds like the kid simply doesn't get social cues or understand appropriate behavior. As you know, what appears to be lack of empathy can be a hallmark of autism; same with the behavioral mimicry. Luckily her mother intervenes w/ there is violence. This kid is not a sociopath, and social behavior is learned over time. I think it will become very apparent to the parents over the next couple of years.

[serenbat]

I see this as two parts- one the child and the other the parent and your friendship

IMO you are not being a friend if you keep your mouth shut and those that are tell you to do so I would not want to be "friends" with them- a true friend should be able to address these and other issues if not what kind of relationship do you really have? just one with nice social graces?

so yes, I would want you to speak to me and I would expect if you were my friend you would say what you feel.......in the end it would depend on that type friend relationship you want to have

as for the child- I would make it super vocal the next time as incident occurs that she may harm another

I wonder how some of those that posted would handle this was happening in a playgroup, etc if you were NOT friends and the child acted this way towards your child or another on a regular bases? great the parent steps up but this happening often would send red flags up for me

[meemee]

Originally Posted by mommariffic

And..the reason I'm posting is because her parents have no idea. None. Zip, which is why I don't want to see her fall under the wayside because no one has said anything. I may loose a friend but I'd rather open eyes to a child's behavior than have them not realize it.

I am sorry I disagree here. The parents are not blind. They are in denial. Many parents do that. There is no too late. yes for many it helps to be caught earlier. but they will be noticed by 5 once she is in school, which is still not bad enough. just as preg@40 described.

i WOULD NOT, NADA, NEVER talk to the mom when you have that attitude. please note i am not judging you. i know you meant it as a way to describe how you feel. i know it shows your concern and love for that family. but going to talk to a family when you feel there is 'something wrong' creates a whole different kind of body language.

i would only talk when i can feel compassion for that family. when i can relate to the mom who sees but still cant see. i think the mom probably thinks all children behave this way.

make observations. write it down. plan it out. write out what you would like to say. do a practise run. and then see how many judgement words you use. something wrong is also a judgement word like good job. they are empty words. what exactly do they mean.

instead pick up an incident. talk about pure observation. when i saw x do this, i got really concerned. i saw no expression on her face and she seemed to be copying y. by 3 most kids understand gentle touch.

is her parents thinking of preschool for her? if so then you dont need to say a word.

also know there are parents who will ALWAYS be in denial. who might never seek help. so be prepared that your saying anything might do nothing.

[ErinYay]

A true friend who has no professional or personal knowledge or experience with developmentally or neurologically not-average children has absolutely no business bringing up their friend's child's perceived issues. None. It's arrogant to think otherwise.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by ErinYay

A true friend who has no professional or personal knowledge or experience with developmentally or neurologically not-average children has absolutely no business bringing up their friend's child's perceived issues. None. It's arrogant to think otherwise.

Yeah, I guess this is where I am on this issue.

[ErinYay]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Yeah, I guess this is where I am on this issue.

I *do* think some PPs had some really good ways of approaching it, though. Just mentioning little things casually is a world apart from confronting a parent that their kid is a sociopathic robot.

Yeah, I keep going back to those words, because I don't think the OP realizes how hurtful her attitude about this particular child is, and that it *will* be reflected if she brings any of it up.

OP, there are so many different kinds of people in the world. "Different" doesn't mean "broken" or "flawed." A child may not respond emotionally as you think is typical, but it doesn't mean the child has any less value, as he or she is in the moment, than a typically-behaving child. Please try to remember that a preschooler is 100% innocent- they are tiny little people who have minimal control over their emotions, behavior, and path in life, and to attribute such harsh terms to such a child, who may well be struggling, is unkind.

[serenbat]

A true friend who has no professional or personal knowledge or experience with developmentally or neurologically not-average children has absolutely no business bringing up their friend's child's perceived issues. None. It's arrogant to think otherwise.

can also backfire--so many "true friendships" have ended over "you KNEW and didn't say anything? how could you not say something?"---that can really hurt

I does not see the the this has to be about being a professional on neurological issues to see an issue--IMO

depends on what you hope to get and keep from the relationship in the long term

[confustication]

I think I'd be inclined to ask some questions.

"Gosh, she seems to really struggle with xyz while she is here, is she like that at home?"

"What can we do to help facilitate more fun and less struggle?"

"What works best for you?"

I disagree that ignoring things and sweeping them under the carpet until the child is old enough to go to school and someone else brings them up is a the way to go. I think it's entirely possible to have a discussion about your concerns- gently- without alienating the friend.

I have a daughter with aspergers, and I wish someone had said something to me when she was younger. There is a lot a parent can do to help that child manage successful social interaction, but it really does work out much better if you start intervening sooner.

[ChetMC]

True Friend

Originally Posted by serenbat

IMO you are not being a friend if you keep your mouth shut and those that are tell you to do so I would not want to be "friends" with them- a true friend should be able to address these and other issues if not what kind of relationship do you really have? just one with nice social graces?

A true friend should know the boundaries of the friendship, should have a sense of what a person is and is not prepared to talk about, and a clear idea of what good will come from addressing a sensitive subject.

I have often opted to not talk about touchy subjects with friends who were simply not ready to face them yet. I'd seen too many other people try to raise the issue and get shut out of the person's life for doing so. Nothing good came from forcing a topic that the person was absolutely not able to talk about yet. The person just became more and more isolated from their supports, got more and more defensive about the issue, and became more and more entrenched in their denial.

Sometimes it's better to wait for a friend to come to you. Sometimes you need to accept that you are not the right person to deliver a message just because you are a friend.

The odds are EXTREMELY low that the OP is going to convince the mom to seek an immediate evaluation for her child.