Another "other people's kids" post... - Page 3

[cycle]

Originally Posted by Smithie

"Um, if I saw an angry woman grab my kid there would be hell to pay. You don't put your hands on someone else's child. Period."

... And this is why we have such horrible behavior on the playground. Parents aren't omniscient, cannot be in all places at once, and other adults are so worried about encountering an hysteric who won't seek the facts before she calls the cops that they they don't physically intervene even when the safety of others demands it.

If a child of five threw anything into my face or the face of another person, they would have my two hands on their shoulders and my loud voice calling for backup until I could physically hand them over to their caregiver.

This is not assault. This is an adult protecting all the kids (including the thrower!) from consequences that they aren't yet capable of comprehending. I have actually been through a similar incident before, and luckily the mom was smart enough to not to start shrieking about assault, but to thank me, assume control of her child, and take him out of the situation.

If you are physically restraining a child to prevent them from hurting another child in the absence of their caregiver that is totally different. Grabbing the child by the arm instead of going to find his caregiver is another. I am a parent that watches her child at the playground and have on many occasions had to speak to other kids at the playground/pool who were doing something dangerous and/or making it utterly impossible for the other children to enjoy themselves. Speaking the them "Please don't swing that stick close to other children" or whatever has almost always worked. I have once or twice went to find that child's caregiver if they continued the behavior. Putting your hands on someone elses' child is not OK.

[Smithie]

"If you are physically restraining a child to prevent them from hurting another child in the absence of their caregiver that is totally different."

I see your point. I have never tried to "drag" a violent kid anywhere, and it's only the one time that I've laid hands on a kid whose parent I didn't know in anything but the "blocking a fist" maneuver when they tried to strike another child.

But fundamentally, I think that there are many common situations in a playground environment where the safest, sanest course of action is for the closest adult to physically intervene. Anybody who disagrees with my judgement call on that will doubtless inform me at the top of their lungs, and I'm fine with that as long as they combine their yelling with getting their butt over to their kid and taking responsibility for him/her.

[EdnaMarie]

"Just walk away" is not an appropriate reaction to violence in a public space.

Really? You don't leave and call the cops? You try to solve the problem yourself?

He's also learning that the adults around him fundamentally don't care about him and don't consider themselves part of his community in any way.

I would think the children would learn that even adults appeal to a community authority, that there are community rules and that they will be enforced, and it's not to be decided on an individual, case-by-case basis depending on who's there.

I mean... you'd be amazed how many people have different standards of violence and acceptability than you. So suppose you drag the child over and the parents insist that even with small rocks, "they're just having fun!"

What he learns then is that he can appeal to his parents and doesn't need to listen to other adults.

I don't believe justice is to be meted out by whoever's nearby. Yes, of course, protect children and others when necessary, but it's not up to us to apprehend the perp right there and then.

I'm not raising bystanders to violence - I'm raising interventionists.

I didn't say stand by. I said, don't get involved in the drama. Tell the relevant authority and leave. Follow up if necessary.

Because... what if your kids are on their own? They can't bring that child home. What are they supposed to do? If you model *informing the authorities and staying away from drama* then that is what they will do. If you model *using superior physical force to apprehend the bully* then they might be lost, because who knows if they have superior physical force?

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by Smithie

"If you feel others are in danger, warn the others. "There's a kid in a red tee-shirt throwing dirt and rocks instead of leaves. We're leaving. You might want to get your kids."


"Just walk away" is not an appropriate reaction to violence in a public space. It's when a critical mass of people become cowed and and flee instead of intervening and demanding that standards of behavior be enforced that a park/street/neighborhood/school/transit system becomes a chronically unsafe place. Sometimes, intervention is as drastic as calling the cops, sometimes it's as mild as calling out to another parent who isn't noticing something their kid is doing, and a lot of the time it's in between.

Immediate safety issues aside (because it's not OK for anyone to have rocks flung in their face, even if me and mine are walking out of range!), a young child whose social experiences teach him that he do something as drastic as throwing rocks at a person's eyes without being immediately, physically stopped and delivered into the hands of his caregiver by the nearest adult present is a child who is being done a great disservice by every adult around him. He's learning that he can hurt people and no outside authority will stop him. He's learning that violence is a successful strategy for dominating people and seizing control of his environment. He's also learning that the adults around him fundamentally don't care about him and don't consider themselves part of his community in any way. If they did, they would extend themselves to see that his error was acknowledged and corrected by his caregiver, because it would matter to them that he (or she!) grow up to meet the standards for behavior in public spaces.

Exactly. Seriously I am NOT running away from a freaking 5 year old. A 5 year old does not 'own' the park and is not in control there. This is why people think GD means that the child runs the show!

[Smithie]

"Really? You don't leave and call the cops? You try to solve the problem yourself?"

When it's a 5 year-old? Abso-freaking-lutely. IMO, calling the cops and/or fleeing the playground is the "drama" option in that scenario, and standing your ground and enforcing the social contract is the "non-drama" option.

I have never called the cops in my life. I would do it, if I had to, but I've never run across a situation yet that I couldn't manage by asserting myself. To be fair, I have mostly lived in very boring places

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by Smithie

"Really? You don't leave and call the cops? You try to solve the problem yourself?"

When it's a 5 year-old? Abso-freaking-lutely. IMO, calling the cops and/or fleeing the playground is the "drama" option in that scenario, and standing your ground and enforcing the social contract is the "non-drama" option.

I have never called the cops in my life. I would do it, if I had to, but I've never run across a situation yet that I couldn't manage by asserting myself. To be fair, I have mostly lived in very boring places

If it's not bad enough to call the cops, then why do you have to stay around and create drama?

Why can't you just go tell the parents?

On the one hand, this scenario has a person physically removing a child from the others for the others' safety.

On the other hand, we're talking about a scenario where the parents can't be called over; the cops need not be called; and things seem to be just not that big of a deal.

This is why people think GD means that the child runs the show!

What does gentle discipline have to do with neglecting your child and modeling violent behavior? If my kids are endangering others, I physically redirect them and if necessary, enforce a time-out. I just don't discipline other people's kids when they are clearly beyond hope. (ETA... I mean at that moment, just saying, "Please stop throwing rocks" is not going to help... this is a serious situation.)

If a FIVE YEAR OLD is throwing ROCKS in the faces of adults... well, I don't really know where to begin. Am I supposed to call a counselor for the child as well?

I'm not saying I'd call the cops. I'm saying, if I felt the situation had to be handled by someone other than the parents, I would. Not take it into my own hands.

I am NOT running away from a freaking 5 year old. A 5 year old does not 'own' the park and is not in control there.

I don't look at it as running away. I could EASILY do pretty much whatever I wanted to or with a small bully and have my way. I'm not afraid of him.

I choose not to participate in that crazy. I'm not going to engage with someone that throws rocks, unless it's my child and I have to. Not gonna drag, not gonna stand and be thrown stuff at, not gonna do anything more than inform the parental group. If the parents aren't interested in raising their child... then we're not going to hang out there. Just like if there's an adult fight and I tell them to take it elsewhere and they throw a punch, and I call the authorities (that would be the police...) and they say, "Meh. No biggy."

And if my child does it, guess what. She's leaving that park and not going back for a long, long time.

the adults around him fundamentally don't care about him

You know... I think if someone throws rocks at me, I really do not care enough to continue having rocks thrown at my face. Yeah, my message would be, "Throwing rocks isn't acceptable. I'm leaving."

Because the child doesn't want the park to himself, you know. He doesn't win. He wants to engage other people on his own violent terms, and continuing to engage in that is actually rewarding it. If everyone leaves, he loses, and ultimately, faces the true consequence for his actions.

If you grab him and it becomes all about him, he has every reason to continue every time he gets to the park.

Leaving for me is not about punishing the child. It's about choosing a happier path for my family. However, I do not think it's letting the child off the hook, either. Engaging with bullies and having a big to-do does not teach them anything, except that they control the interaction.

[Smithie]

I understand your position, but I disagree.

Hey, this gives me a chance to share my new favorite sign


http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhan...8475131-12.jpg

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Smithie

"Um, if I saw an angry woman grab my kid there would be hell to pay. You don't put your hands on someone else's child. Period."

... And this is why we have such horrible behavior on the playground. Parents aren't omniscient, cannot be in all places at once, and other adults are so worried about encountering an hysteric who won't seek the facts before she calls the cops that they they don't physically intervene even when the safety of others demands it.

Wrong! We have problems on the playground because too many parents think that a trip to the playground = break time. And they park their butt on a bench and let their kids go off and play without close supervision. Parents don't have to be omniscient, they do have to be present That's not that hard to do.

The fix in this situation is not grabbing the kid and dragging them over to the closest set of adults and hope that one of them is the parent. The child doesn't have to be present for you to locate the parent and describe the behavior. I am with the rest of the mamas here. I don't care what my son is doing, no one ever grabs my kid and drags them anywhere. Period. Then again I would know it was taking place because I am right there with my son anyway.

[EdnaMarie]

@ Smithie, LOL, I LOVE that sign. Did you go to the RtRS? I was looking at their signs all night last night. Waaaay too late on the computer. y

[Smithie]

Nope, didn't go. I was doing exactly what you were doing. Up until 2 a.m. surfing for sign pics.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

I would have yelled: "STOP THROWING ROCKS NOW!" in a loud and firm voice. This would have given the other parents/adults around information about what was going on and portrayed my feelings about the action. It would also have modeled what I would want *my* kid to do if someone threw rocks at him.

ETA: And then I would have gone up to the other adults on the playground and said, "Yo, that kid just threw rocks and mulch in my face and my kids' faces!!!" Then waited for someone to own up to knowing him (his parents or friends) or at least know that now there were several adults who knew what had happened and could keep an eye on their own kid(s) and the other kid.

[jeslynn]

Oh man. I am so sorry you had to deal with that.

We had to deal with something similar at my sons birthday party. We had it at the park and the field next to us about 500 adults were playing/watching a soccer game. All the kids came near our pavillion and were playing with the party kids. I didn't have a problem until they tried to throw buckets of water on my son and then pushed him over and gave him a cut!! I was FURIOUS! There was simply no way I could have found his parents in the big crowd, so I called the park and had them deal with it.

Infuriating!!!