Should I complain to the principal or the teacher?

[Fuamami]

Yesterday I was in my son's classroom and one of his classmates broke down the discipline system for me:

"If you get a yellow card, that means you're bad. If you get a red card, that means you're REALLY bad. I only have two wristbands left (they start with seven and they're taken away throughout the day for misbehavior), so I'm going to get a yellow card. My mom is going to be sooo mad at me, but I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to lie, and tell her I got a blue card and lost it."

These are kindergartners, by the way. I just couldn't believe he was saying it, it was like Alfie Kohn hired him to explain what was wrong with the wristband-behavioral-control model. Anyway, I'm going to write a letter telling this story and asking about the research behind the method - should I send it to his teacher or to the principal? My hesitation in sending it to the teacher comes from the fact that the other two kindy teachers seem to be in charge of it.

[sapphire_chan]

:
how about all of them?

I'd expect them to act like whiny toddlers about it, though, so maybe be prepared with some transition ideas like "reinforcing the positive" (great buzzphrase for that set) by giving back bracelets for approved behavior.

[BCFD]

My mouth seriously dropped when I read this post. I'm a huge Alfie Kohn fan and got a good chuckle out of your comment.

Wow...honestly, I would set up an appointment with the principal and just let the teacher know what's going on. Maybe the teacher would like to sit in on the meeting. I would go to the teacher and ask for an explanation of WHY she/he is using this type of system and how effective she thinks it is. Then hit her with this story.

Unbelievable. Truly.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by BCFD

My mouth seriously dropped when I read this post. I'm a huge Alfie Kohn fan and got a good chuckle out of your comment.

Wow...honestly, I would set up an appointment with the principal and just let the teacher know what's going on. Maybe the teacher would like to sit in on the meeting. I would go to the teacher and ask for an explanation of WHY she/he is using this type of system and how effective she thinks it is. Then hit her with this story.

Unbelievable. Truly.

OK, I think that's a good idea. I think I'll share the story with him first, though, so I can play dumb a little bit and get more info about whether or not they've given any thought to it. Then I can hit them more subtly with suggestions/research.

[Fuamami]

Oh, and SapphireChan, they do give back bracelets, or give additional ones throughout the day for "good choices".

[Linda on the move]

Always start with the teacher. It's just tacky to go over someone's head and talk to their boss unless they give you are really good reason to do so.

[One_Girl]

That actually sounds like a nice system compared to the card ones I have seen. They typically get a warning then they pull their cards in the rooms I have been in where they do the card system. I agree that you should start with the teacher. I don't think a letter will do any good because this is a very common classroom management system across the country. They actually taught that system, along with many others, in my classroom management class at the university I attended and many of the professors recommended it very strongly.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Have you talked with your child about the system? My son's school has a similar system, but my son would never say "bad" or "really bad" because those aren't words we use in our family about children or behavior, so they're not the words he would use. I imagine different kids in the class would describe the system with different language based on how they've learned to speak of discipline and behavior.

What is it that you want to address, whether it be with the teacher or the principal?

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

Oh, and SapphireChan, they do give back bracelets, or give additional ones throughout the day for "good choices".

Yay? Darn it, I was hoping if they were stubborn you could get them moving towards sensibility by sort of pulling them in with that.

How much you want to bet they aren't giving back a bracelet every time the kid has a reasonable sound level for 5 minutes but they do take one away after a minute of not being quiet when asked?

[LynnS6]

I'd talk to the principal, but unless you can suggest a better alternative, they'll probably keep that darn system. Unfortunately, the "stop light" behavior modification system seems to be really popular.

One decent system is called: Positive Behavior Interventions and Supports.
http://www.pbis.org/

Our school uses this and it works.

[hippiechickinsing]

I would speak to the teacher about it, but be prepared to go higher than the principal. I know in some places it's a district-wide mandate for elementary schools to use this or a very similar system, both based on red, yellow, green.

I hate these systems, too, and do feel the Positive Behavior System works much better, but a lot of schools have bought into this and don't seem to be willing to change.

[lynsage]

My daughter's school uses a similar system (no wrist bands) but there's never been any language about "bad" or "really bad" or anything of that sort. A yellow means they need to sit and think about their actions and a better way to handle it next time, orange means they do some reading and a little worksheet about the situation, red means they need to go home and talk to parents about it and decide how to deal with the issue. The teacher also made a big speech at curriculum night about how red cards don't mean your kid is "bad" and not to freak out if you get one, it just means the child needs to have a talk with you about better coping strategies for situations at school.

I am still not totally happy with the system, but I think it can be used more constructively than it seems to be with the kid you talked to. I would try to assess whether he's getting this impression from his teachers/principal, or from overreacting parents. In my experience kids act like that when they're afraid of the parents.

[LightToast]

That's a really touch situation. I don't like these behavioral systems either.

First, I think I'd go to the teacher and ask her/him to describe the system to you and explain why they think it's the most effective way of handling inappropriate student behavior. Also, ask if there are other options.

If you don't like what the teacher says, then go to the principal. However, I'd be cautiously optimistic because the principal may feel the system is fine. She/he may feel it's the teacher's decision to choose a method of managing the classroom.

[whatsnextmom]

As a rule of thumb, you'll always do better if you follow the chain of command. Teacher's come first and they don't do well when people go over their heads (and in truth, none of us like that.) However, if you do want the principal to know, the solution is to address the letter to both kindie teachers and the principal together. This way, all parties have the same information and the teacher won't feel so "tattled on."

[mar123]

When deciding about a situation such as this, I always think about how I would want it handled. Would you want someone to go your boss before speaking to you? Certainly if you don't get anywhere with the teacher,you should address the problem with a supervisor.

Also, when speaking to the teacher, ask her how she feels the system works. Maybe even bring in some suggestions. What works at home with our children is not always transferable to a class of 20-30 kids. heck, the same thing doesn't work within my own family. you have to know each child't "trigger". That is imposible for a teacher at the start of a school year. IME, these types of things are usually pretty strict for the first half of the year, then the discipline runs itself. This may also be a system that was set up when she started and she may be looking for something else if this is not effective.

I have had 3 kids go through these systems and I also teach high school. IMO, discipline in high school is actually easier!

[Rose-Roget]

[QUOTE=Fuamami;15986547]"If you get a yellow card, that means you're bad. If you get a red card, that means you're REALLY bad. I only have two wristbands left (they start with seven and they're taken away throughout the day for misbehavior), so I'm going to get a yellow card. My mom is going to be sooo mad at me, but I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to lie, and tell her I got a blue card and lost it."

These are kindergartners, by the way. I just couldn't believe he was saying it, it QUOTE]

Yeah, this is very standard in classrooms around here. It makes me want to cry, andm in fact, has several times. In kindergarten, kids are supposed to WANT to learn. If they don't, then something is wrong with the environment.

[oceanbaby]

Well, as much as I hate these kinds of things, I would take the kid's description with a grain of salt. My first grader told me that he kept "getting in trouble" on the playground. I finally asked the teacher about it, and she was very puzzled, because she could never think of a time he'd been in trouble. I asked ds more about it, and his version of "getting in trouble" was being told that he wasn't allowed to climb up the slide.

Our school uses a version of what you described. I really can't stand it, and it doesn't even sound as bad as yours. Don't know about K (we hs'ed), but for 1st they have colored cards, and it gets turned over if a kid isn't listening or is acting out. If it gets turned a second time that day, a note goes home to the parent.

In 4th grade, a kid will be given a blue slip if there is a problem - missing homework, or I assume acting out - and the parent has to sign the blue slip, as a way of making sure they know what happened.

I think of all of it sucks, but I have kind of resigned myself to it, since none of the kids have really seemed upset about it. I did complain to the Principal yesterday, though, when I found out that the music teacher was giving jelly beans to each student who was able to hit each note correctly. My son missed one note, and was super bummed at not getting a jelly bean, saying he didn't want to play the trombone anymore.

The principal was all on it, I have to give her credit. The school has a wellness policy that forbids candy/sugar in the classroom, so she made sure the music teacher knew to not bring candy in anymore, and explained my feelings about a kid being "punished" for missing a note, when in my opinion, that should mean they get some more help!

But I encourage you to speak up. It's the only chance for change.

[cycle]

I loathe those types of behavior systems. My son is in K and the teacher had to go out on leave for the year so another teacher was needed. I was one of the parents on the interviewing committee. Every candidate that brought up using any kind of system like this was at the bottom of our list. Luckily everyone else on the committee was on the same page. One of the candidates described a system that was posted on a bulletin board with all the kids names and the color coded card next to it, green, yellow or red depending on their behavior. Her theory was that they would be ashamed in front of their peers if they continually had yellows or reds and that would help them improve their behavior.

ETA I agree with talking to the teacher first though I am not sure it will do much good. If the system is in place and they feel it is working they may not change it. I would take in all of the research you have though and try!

[SubliminalDarkness]

Originally Posted by cycle

I loathe those types of behavior systems. My son is in K and the teacher had to go out on leave for the year so another teacher was needed. I was one of the parents on the interviewing committee. Every candidate that brought up using any kind of system like this was at the bottom of our list. Luckily everyone else on the committee was on the same page. One of the candidates described a system that was posted on a bulletin board with all the kids names and the color coded card next to it, green, yellow or red depending on their behavior. Her theory was that they would be ashamed in front of their peers if they continually had yellows or reds and that would help them improve their behavior.

ETA I agree with talking to the teacher first though I am not sure it will do much good. If the system is in place and they feel it is working they may not change it. I would take in all of the research you have though and try!

I think that's almost standard teaching in universities now. That it's how you effectively discipline. Wish it wasn't so, but it is.

My mom has a lot of faults, but I have to give her credit for how she disciplines her class. She actually, amazingly, took into account the specific demographic of kids she teaches, and adapted. In her case, very low income kids, each kid has very little, and most kids don't come to school with any supplies. She created a system where kids earn, with good behavior, classroom money to spend on cool supplies. The kids are always provided with the basics, but they have the option to earn decorative pencils or erasers, colored lined paper for doing classwork, folders with designs, stickers, etc. She's been doing it for the four years she's been at that school, and reports really positive results.
(Oh, and the kids can also have to 'pay' her for poor behavior. They get a warning, and if the action is repeated, they have to 'pay' a pre-determined "tax" for that behavior.)

[Amys1st]

Your school is a PBIS school as my principal would say. Our school uses a totally different school type, more the we all work together school. But several schools in our school district use the PBIS format. Those schools also have double the amount of students the school my kids attend have. I had not heard about this until my close friend (whose kids attend the pbis school in our town) was like- you dont do that?? The kids get a red, yellow, blue or green card each day. A friend of mine I know thru FB is always posting about her son having a green card all week etc. He struggles with behavior.

We dont use it, but when I first heard about it, I as well as DH were horrified but I was comparing it to how it would work in our much smaller school. Dont know if this helps you or not.