Help, seriously, I need advice about my shy, gentle 4 yr. old

[Petie1104]

OK, so I teach religious school at our temple. I teach the 1st grade group, which includes my daughter. My older son is in the 4th grade group, and my little one is in the preschool group. So, I am teaching class when one of my students asked if he could go to the bathroom. I told him yes, but to hurry because we had to practice a skit that we were performing for the other classes. This boy runs back to class and looks devastated, "I didn't go to the bathroom yet," well, I had to wonder so I asked, "Why?". One thing to understand about this child is that when he gets nervous or excited he has trouble forming sentences, so I patiently took him through it and this is what I got. (Names will be changed here)"Sam and your son were in the bathroom and your son was on the floor crying and Sam was kicking and hitting your son and I told Sam to stop but he wouldn't stop and he tried to hit me".

OK, not my best moment, but I ran out of the room and got to the bathroom right as dh was running in (he had been outside and came in, heard our son scream, and went straight to the bathroom). Sam was literally standing over my son who was in the fetal position on the floor kicking him over and over. I looked at Sam and before I could speak he starts yelling, "its his fault, he started it, he started it" I told him that it did not matter who started it he just needed to go back to his classroom now. I wasn't exactly nice in saying that, not mean, but firm. Dh had already picked up ds and was trying to console him, but ds had bruises on his stomach and chest(well, by the time we got home they had formed actual bruises, at that time they were just red).

At any rate, when my class was performing the skit, the other kids were sitting on the floor, Sam kept trying to get close, and I mean right up on top of ds to the point that my older son got between them. DS was so scared that he started climbing into my older's lap and then eventually retreated into a hallway.

OK, so how do I help with this? I mean what he went through was bad, and it didn't help that Sam's mom just laughs about "boys being boys" but we have to find a way for ds to stand up for himself. I mean, the good news is, we only have one more Sun. before we are moving to AZ, but what if something like this happens again. How do I teach my son to not allow these things to happen to him? I know it isn't his fault that Sam attacked him, but it's more than that. For weeks Sam has been hugging on him and chasing him around and ds won't tell him to stop it. DS is too gentle himself to want to hurt someone's feelings and it's not that I want him to be mean, but to be assertive when he is uncomfortable would be nice. ANY suggestions?

Oh, P.S. he is not at ALL like this with his brothers and sister. No, he will tell them in a heartbeat to leave him alone. He has never been a hitter, which is good, but he most definately asserts himself at home. This is only with other kids. He is also afraid of strangers, so that is another issue altogether. He still gets nervous around people that we see 2 or more times a week.

OK any suggestions would be more than welcome.

[Minxie]

I am so sorry for your son! That was so completely WRONG and his mother should have done MUCH more than laugh it off. You all are incredibly calm as I would be FURIOUS.

Ideas:

Martial arts or self-defense classes

Role-playing

Have older sibling escort him to the bathroom and wait for him

[Petie1104]

We actually talked to his older sister and brother and the next sunday, they are going to make sure he is not alone when he goes to the bathroom, or anywhere else. I do like the idea of self defense classes, his older brother is a green belt in tae kwon do, but ds likes gymnastics so that is what he has chosen, and we don't really have the time for any one of the kids to have more than one activity. Maybe, though, with dh's new job, we might be able to make it work. He is retiring from the army so his hours were nuts, not to mention deployments, so each child had to have a class on different nights from the others, with two of us, maybe we will be able to double up, daddy takes one and I take the other.

P.S. I was furious and dh had to practically drag me out of there because I was ready to explode. All I could think was, maybe I should kick you a few times and see if it's acceptable. Of course, I didn't. When I'm teaching I have to remember that I am representing the Synagogue, so I have to distance myself. No favoritism towards my children, no slapping the parent of another child, you know, all that good stuff.LOL I was ranting the whole way home, though. DH got tired of me ranting and was about to drive me back just so he didn't have to hear it anymore. I was furious.

[Dandelionkid]

How awful!!!! My DS 4 is much the same way. My three strategies so far are 1)giving him as much security in me as he needs (we started gymnastics and I am the only mom that needs to stay with the class because he is so shy) and 2) I really want to find something for him that he can excel at to boost his confidence level as he grows up 3) we are homeschooling- he couldn't manage a class environment right now. I expect someday he will be ready and prepared to deal with all the peer-issues but it could be a few years.In the meantime we deal with enough issues as he plays with neighborhood kids. We have tried role-playing saying "no" etc.

[Petie1104]

I hadn't even thought of the school issue. I don't know if he'll be able to handle a new teacher AND a classroom full of new kids. Great, now I'll be worrying about that too!!

[lovesea]

I don't really have any advice. I also have a shy four year old who has no problem asserting himself at home :-). I just wanted to say that the incident you talked about sounds pretty extreme and severe. I can't believe the other boy was just sent back to class without there being any other consequence. And call me totally naive but I don't think it's the kind of attack that kids encounter often so I don't think you need to worry about how he'll handle it should it happen again. Repeatedly kicking someone when they're lying passively on the floor! Hitting another child who tried to intervene! I'm so sorry your son was a victim here but I do not think this is your or your son's issue. The victim could just have easily been another child (shy or not) and most probably will be another child and the attacks may get worse as the child gets older. As adults we expect to be protected from such attacks by law.

[SleeplessMommy]

I can't speak to how to help the 4 year old. BUT there should be a consistent discipline/safety plan. In general, if "Sam" hits another kid once, he should be told NO and given a timeout. With the situation you describe (kicking kid on floor), Sam's Mom should have been notified during the services and he should have been sent home immediately.

Followup with written note saying that Sam is out of the program if it happens again.

[Petie1104]

Well, see, now that is where the dilemma came in. I was the one who found "Sam" doing this. I am also the victim's mother. I am also a teacher in the religious school. So basically, I was being torn by three different angles about what to do and didn't trust myself to be objective in the matter. I immediately informed "Sam's" teacher about the incident, but she is young and was more worried about me being upset than about disciplining "Sam". I was more worried about "Sam's" mom thinking I was picking on her child because mine was the one injured, and the religious director basically stayed out of it and tried to see what "Sam's" teacher would do as this is her first year teaching. It is a bad situation, but this is not the first time that ds has been bullied because he refuses to stand up for himself. "Sam" escalated to this, so I know it won't be as severe with the next one. What I fear is that there is always a next one out there.

[Petie1104]

Oh and I was recently informed, by my 9 yr. old, that "Sam" has beaten up on almost all the children in my class in the past. I wasn't there and didn't hear about it because, well, I hate to say it but "Sam" is afraid of dd and didn't pick on her. Apparently he came at her once and she told him to back off, and well, he figured it was better to do as she said. So, since I have had time to cool off, I have decided to address the complete issue with the school director, since I have more than just the incident involving my ds to report to her.

[A_Random_Phrase]

If you're moving to AZ and decide to homeschool your son, I want you to know that it isn't difficult to homeschool here. You sign an affidavit that you will teach your child/ren 5 basic subjects. Bring his birth certificate to the school superintendent's office. The affidavit is there to fill out (should be) and the person behind the desk is usually a notary to notarize your signature. You do have to say from what school district you're transferring if I remember correctly. And you only need to do this once, unless you transfer the child to a public/private school, then back to home schooling. The children are not tested in AZ. If they go to ps from hs, they are tested to see what grade they are in.

Anyway, if you are in a space where you can do that, it may save your gentle son from more bullying in a new place.

[heartmama]

Wow. The original behavior sounds so extreme and beyond normal I don't think this is a question of toughening up your son's response. That is really awful what happened to him and I think he needs to hear that more than anything. I would worry about his feelings towards synagogue after taking a beating in the bathroom . I would want to meet with someone from there to apologize to him and assure him he is safe at synagogue. He should hear/see adults tell him that is not okay and he will be supported. I think it sends the wrong message to say he should learn how to handle that better? Better how? It is not his job to fend off a child kicking him and bruising his torso, that is beyond normal. I would be livid. He curled into a fetal position which might have been the best thing he could do if the other kid was too strong. Bruising of the chest and stomach could have resulted in damaged kidneys. That is scary, I think he did the best he could, and deserves an apology from a representative of the synagogue (of course an apology from the other child and parents should be given, but it sounds like they are not going to apologize).

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by heartmama

Wow. The original behavior sounds so extreme and beyond normal I don't think this is a question of toughening up your son's response. That is really awful what happened to him and I think he needs to hear that more than anything. I would worry about his feelings towards synagogue after taking a beating in the bathroom . I would want to meet with someone from there to apologize to him and assure him he is safe at synagogue. He should hear/see adults tell him that is not okay and he will be supported. I think it sends the wrong message to say he should learn how to handle that better? Better how? It is not his job to fend off a child kicking him and bruising his torso, that is beyond normal. I would be livid. He curled into a fetal position which might have been the best thing he could do if the other kid was too strong. Bruising of the chest and stomach could have resulted in damaged kidneys. That is scary, I think he did the best he could, and deserves an apology from a representative of the synagogue (of course an apology from the other child and parents should be given, but it sounds like they are not going to apologize).

I agree with everything you are saying. We have discussed it with him and he is OK with the synagogue, he used to feel perfectly safe there, he wouldn't talk to anyone but he was feeling perfectly safe. Now he says he's OK as long as "Sam" isn't there. That is what scares me, they are in the same class. I mean, if we go that last sunday, which we have to because I have to teach, I am worried that he will refuse to go to his class. I am tempted to leave him home and have dh or the oldest to stay with him because he is acting more like he doesn't want to go. We are going to Friday night service, and "Sam" usually isn't there so I'm hoping that he will at least have one more opportunity to go and not feel threatened.

I worry because he is this way with any assertive child too. I mean, we go to chik-fil-a and if a child in the play area is even assertive with him he will lay down to cover his himself. That is why I am wondering if there is anything I can do to help him. He is fine with his sister who has a tendency to be violent (she has issues that we have had to deal with). He will tell her to get away from him in a very assertive tone, I just don't get why he can't take that same tone with other kids who are being assertive. "Sam" is the first violent child outside our home who he has had to deal with, but he has had to deal with children who take toys, tell him what to do etc. and his reaction is much the same, curl up and hide. I feel so bad for him and I always have to go get him and pick him up in the curled position, he will then stay curled up, in my lap for anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes (I think that was the longest). I just want him to feel confident and not scared all the time.

[Petie1104]

I have to add, that even though he is great with me and will stand up to people in our family, there is one exception. He will hide if he does anything wrong in front of Daddy. I don't know why but he says he's afraid of daddy. Now my husband is more gentle than I am with the kids so it really isn't making sense that he is afraid of daddy. If dh tries to talk to him he curls up to hide.

[A_Random_Phrase]

I wonder if something happened when he was really little and his daddy scared him. It doesn't have to be something that was dangerous to him in reality, just something he perceived as dangerous or extremely painful. It sounds like it's a problem that will only be solved through much soul-searching and prayer.

[Petie1104]

DH was gone for most of ds's first year. He was deployed to Iraq. DS didn't know him when he first got home, and he had to go through this whole process of getting to know daddy again. So, I mean, I don't know, maybe that kind of caused a bit of his reserved behavior. I can't think of anything that would have caused him to be fearful of dh unless it is just that dh was gone for so long and then just showed up again.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Petie1104

Oh and I was recently informed, by my 9 yr. old, that "Sam" has beaten up on almost all the children in my class in the past. I wasn't there and didn't hear about it because, well, I hate to say it but "Sam" is afraid of dd and didn't pick on her. Apparently he came at her once and she told him to back off, and well, he figured it was better to do as she said. So, since I have had time to cool off, I have decided to address the complete issue with the school director, since I have more than just the incident involving my ds to report to her.

Please do.

Right now the synagogue is failing at creating a safe space for children. It's failing the children who have gotten beaten up by 'Sam' and it's failing Sam by letting him continue this behavior. From what I gather, Sam is 4, so I place a large part of the blame on the adults around Sam. If Sam has so little self control that he beats up other children regularly, then Sam needs a shadow and some extra help.

When you talk to the director (if you haven't already) make sure that you tell them that your son is now only OK going to synagogue if Sam isn't there.

I might drop the word "liability" in there too, just to make sure that the director's ears get what you're saying.

Originally Posted by heartmama

Wow. The original behavior sounds so extreme and beyond normal I don't think this is a question of toughening up your son's response. That is really awful what happened to him and I think he needs to hear that more than anything.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Finally, I want to say that it is possible for shy, sweet, gentle children to be just fine in a school setting. I know a lot of people here are pro-homeschooling and if that works for their families, great. But the choice isn't between "toughening up" your child and keeping them home. They can thrive in school settings too.

I've got a shy, gentle, sweet 9 year old who is thriving in a public school. We've never had a problem with him being bullied at school (in the neighborhood, yes). We've never had him feel unsafe there. He likes his classmates and his teachers. He needs a little work on social skills, and he's getting that at school. (They're not bad, they're just not great, so the school counselor is working with him.)

[A_Random_Phrase]

Originally Posted by Petie1104

DH was gone for most of ds's first year. He was deployed to Iraq. DS didn't know him when he first got home, and he had to go through this whole process of getting to know daddy again. So, I mean, I don't know, maybe that kind of caused a bit of his reserved behavior. I can't think of anything that would have caused him to be fearful of dh unless it is just that dh was gone for so long and then just showed up again.

That makes perfect sense.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Petie1104

I mean what he went through was bad, and it didn't help that Sam's mom just laughs about "boys being boys" but we have to find a way for ds to stand up for himself. I mean, the good news is, we only have one more Sun. before we are moving to AZ, but what if something like this happens again. How do I teach my son to not allow these things to happen to him? I know it isn't his fault that Sam attacked him, but it's more than that. For weeks Sam has been hugging on him and chasing him around and ds won't tell him to stop it. DS is too gentle himself to want to hurt someone's feelings and it's not that I want him to be mean, but to be assertive when he is uncomfortable would be nice. ANY suggestions?

Oh, P.S. he is not at ALL like this with his brothers and sister. No, he will tell them in a heartbeat to leave him alone. He has never been a hitter, which is good, but he most definately asserts himself at home. This is only with other kids. He is also afraid of strangers, so that is another issue altogether. He still gets nervous around people that we see 2 or more times a week.

OK any suggestions would be more than welcome.

First I think Sam's behaviour was over-the-top. So although this incident was awful (AWFUL) I think your son's behaviour is not at all the issue this time.

But I do hear you on the broader issue of nerves and non-assertive behaviour. My son is probably not as far on the scale as yours, but he is often shy or slow to warm up, and used to react really similarly.

We (and his school...I have to say a good school can really help with this) roleplayed a lot, a lot with him. And we did start talking to him as simply as possible about the difference between being aggressive and being assertive. Some of the things he learned to say that we don't consider rude:

Stop that!
I don't like that, stop.
Please leave me alone right now.
If you don't stop I will tell a grown-up.

And we also have said things like:

It was not right that X did/said that to you.

Originally Posted by Petie1104

DH was gone for most of ds's first year. He was deployed to Iraq. DS didn't know him when he first got home, and he had to go through this whole process of getting to know daddy again. So, I mean, I don't know, maybe that kind of caused a bit of his reserved behavior. I can't think of anything that would have caused him to be fearful of dh unless it is just that dh was gone for so long and then just showed up again.

I think it sounds mostly like personality than anything else. But that would be hard on everyone.

[junipermuse]

I just want to say that I think you need to make a bigger fuss to Sam's teacher, Sam's mom, and the school director. I would even take it up higher (I don't know if the hierarchy is similar to that at church, but would talking to the Rabbi be of any use if no one else listens). I am usually of the kids will be kids mind set. I think its reasonable to expect Preschoolers to occasionally be hit or pushed or even bitten by other young children. I think we have to teach children that they don't deserve it, they should stand up and say "no" or "Stop", but that they are tough and can get over it. But what Sam did to your son is way beyond typical kid stuff. If a child under my supervision acted that way there would be big consequences. Their parent would have to remove them from the classroom immediately and they would probably be asked to stay home at least another week or two. Sam's mother needs to take this seriously, to me that level of aggressive behavior signals a serious problem.

I don't think you should feel reluctant to make a fuss, just because you're also a teacher. In fact I think your biggest responsibility needs to be to your son, not to your role as teacher. I totally understand though why it felt confusing and overwhelming in the moment though. This just struck a chord with me because when I was a child my mother was my girl scout leader and frequently she overcompensated for her fear of appearing biased by siding against me or not supporting me when situations arised, even when her mommy instincts told her not to.

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by junipermuse

I just want to say that I think you need to make a bigger fuss to Sam's teacher, Sam's mom, and the school director. I would even take it up higher (I don't know if the hierarchy is similar to that at church, but would talking to the Rabbi be of any use if no one else listens). I am usually of the kids will be kids mind set. I think its reasonable to expect Preschoolers to occasionally be hit or pushed or even bitten by other young children. I think we have to teach children that they don't deserve it, they should stand up and say "no" or "Stop", but that they are tough and can get over it. But what Sam did to your son is way beyond typical kid stuff. If a child under my supervision acted that way there would be big consequences. Their parent would have to remove them from the classroom immediately and they would probably be asked to stay home at least another week or two. Sam's mother needs to take this seriously, to me that level of aggressive behavior signals a serious problem.

I don't think you should feel reluctant to make a fuss, just because you're also a teacher. In fact I think your biggest responsibility needs to be to your son, not to your role as teacher. I totally understand though why it felt confusing and overwhelming in the moment though. This just struck a chord with me because when I was a child my mother was my girl scout leader and frequently she overcompensated for her fear of appearing biased by siding against me or not supporting me when situations arised, even when her mommy instincts told her not to.

Yes, we can talk to the Rabbi. I have to get together with the rel sch.dir. this week anyway (she is also the sisterhood president, she has ALOT on her plate) to turn in keys and sign an acct. over so I'm probably going to bring it up with her then. I will also be going to services this Fri. evening so I'm going to show up a bit early to talk to the Rabbi. We have been talking to Simon and he kept talking tough, like he wasn't scared. Then yesterday, I asked him how he's going to react to Sam next Sun and he said, "I won't go in the same room with him". I explained that he can't help but be in the same room with him because they're in the same class. He didn't think about that, so he asked if he could sit in my class. So basically, if Sam is there, he won't participate. So this has become a huge issue because I don't want him to miss his last opportunity to be with his friends because of one child scaring him.