Acceleration, Starting K Early - Page 2

[whatsnextmom]

What about her going to college at age 17?"

You can always site different state cut-offs. Our state still has a Dec 1st cut-off. This means that kids are graduating at 17 all the time. My DD is grade skipped and will be 17 but there will be others who are "right" for grade and they'll be 17 as well.

"No one ever regrets holding a child back.

Not true at all. There had been an influx of "grade correction" in our district as parents are finding the boys they held back initially are poorly placed in their classes in the older grades. Often these kids end up bored because they are developmentally ready for more the next grads curriculum. Every bully in my DS's school is a red-shirt case (though of course not every red-shirted kid is a bully.) Believe me, people do regret holding their kids back.

What about when she is in 6th grade?

What about it? Are they talking puberty? Kids start when they start. My grade skipper is in high school and STILL hasn't started her period. She is grateful for it lol. 6th grade, people rarely knew she was grade accelerated.

What about when her friends are driving and she's not?

Things are different. Kids don't automatically get license at 16. Driver training is often not offered by schools any longer and quite expensive (and neccessary to get a permit.) Cars are expensive. Gas is expensive. Insurance is expensive. I have 3 nieces and a nephew and NONE were driving prior to 18. Plus, there are all sorts of restrictions on them... the fact that they can't drive friends anywhere sort of kills it for some kids.

All that said, it's best not to engage. I always say "we have to do what works now. We'll deal with any problems as the arise."

[bec]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

He advised us in our state that early entrance to K probably wasn't the hill to die on. I already knew it was next to impossible, but he said he'd seen profoundly gifted children denied early entrance. Our better option, according to him, would be to put DS in school at the appropriate time & then push grade skipping if it looked like he needed it. Once you're in the system, it's harder to put you off!

This. Our district wouldn't even look at us for early admittance (December birthday) for our PG kid (with test results that they never looked at.). By the end of Pre-K, she was reading near a 3rd grade level, doing about 2nd grade math, and was pretty bored. It was a play based preschool, and her teacher was amazing at keeping her engaged with logic and puzzle based sheets for their "table time" (all of about 10 minutes in their 3 hour day). But, kindergarten was something of a nightmare for her. She was bored, acted out at home (never at school, though), and they mistook her compliance for being engaged and challenged. We fought all that year, and despite them assuring us they would be able to differentiate, they did very little. We, ultimately were successful in getting her skipped to 2nd grade for this year. She's in a 2/3 split and is doing 3rd grade work right now. She's scoring in the 99th percentile for her work, and is socially very well adapted.

The district also brought up the jr. high and high school social question. My husband replied with, "So, in 10 years, she may be a disaffected teenager? Well, I guess we can deal with that then."

For the record, I am an October birthday, and was always the youngest in my class. It was never a problem for me.

[What Next?]

Originally Posted by mommyfied

How do you deal with the pervasive attitude that holding kids back is always the best choice?

I'm a devoted lurker to this board, but I really wanted to respond to you. I was in a very similar situation 2 years ago, and my dd is also a very reserved child (won't speak in a group, takes a LOOOOOONG time to warm up to people). I am "lucky" to live in NY, where the cutoff is Dec 1 (but where there's no mandate for GT). DD's birthday is in November. So I had the very difficult decision of whether to put my dd in kdg "on time" or wait a year... knowing that most people in this area would wait, knowing that if we move to another state dd would be the youngest by FAR, and knowing that many of her college freshman friends will be older. We chose to send her, and here's why:

As many others have pointed out, kdg is mostly about socialization. A child who has already been through 2 years of preschool, or a child who's been in daycare, or a child who has older siblings, is probably ready for the social aspect of kdg. As a parent, you know how your child handles social situations. For us, we knew our dd responded appropriately to older children, and acted more babyish with younger children. Another year of preschool would have likely caused some regression. In retrospect, I also think the low level of academic focus in preschool may have resulted in more defiance and behavioral issues if we had kept her there another year. DD's best friend also attended the same preschool, but her birthday just misses the cutoff. Not to say the two girls are the same, but they are following similar academic paths (reading around the same chronological age, similar math skills, that kind of thing), and I saw some real behavioral issues with this other girl for the last year (kdg, and now 1st grade). She is SO bored, she's starting to disengage.

My dd, on the other hand, THRIVED in kdg. She just absorbed all of it enthusiastically - academics and social skills. She's 2e, and we REALLY worried that we were making a mistake, but it turned out kdg was absolutely the right place for her. I will say, we lucked out with her teacher, but even with a more typical teacher, kdg would have been a success. Right now, her young age isn't an issue with her classmates, and as long as she doesn't make a big deal of it, I don't see that it ever will be.

Another factor in dd's favor is her height. She's about 75th percentile, which actually makes her look perfectly average among all her older classmates. But if she was super tiny, it still wouldn't have influenced our decision to send her to kdg. Honestly, I know kdger's who are taller than her (and younger), and I know 2nd graders who are shorter.

Academically, our dd breezed through kdg, despite her learning issues. She quickly jumped right into the top group of kids. This year, in 1st grade, she is bored bored bored with about 70% of the material (everything except reading, where she's appropriately placed). Had I held her back, I would have had a kdger reading at a 5th grade level, and I would have had significant roadblocks getting the school to take dd seriously in kdg.

Originally Posted by mommyfied

What about when her friends are driving and she's not? What about her going to college at age 17?" ETC.

I didn't choose to get my driver's license until I was almost 20. I just didn't want to. There are people like that, and it doesn't have to be a source of peer pressure. Besides, just because a teenager has a license, doesn't mean she always has access to a car. I think this issue is a poor excuse for holding a child back academically.

Early entrance to college is an interesting issue, and not one to take lightly. "A Nation Decieved" lists many ways families can handle this, including taking core classes at a local community college for the first year or two; using the "extra" years between completion of high school and beginning of college to do independent research or projects; or just continuing to attend high school to get extra courses and AP credits under her belt, saving time and $ in college (and not missing any of the social side of high school, if that's important to the kid). Or, if you can afford it, travel!

Originally Posted by mommyfied

I was already strongly discouraged by the admissions officer NOT to move her ahead. "No one ever regrets holding a child back. You're not hurting her by holding her back. You could only hurt her by moving her ahead. It's good being the oldest."

Well, I would have regreted holding my dd back. She was so happy in kdg, and despite being bored by 1st grade, she knows there will be more challenges next year. I can't IMAGINE having to wait ANOTHER year to get appropriate programs for her. It would be torture for both of us.

As for being "good" to be the oldest, why? Why would any bright child want to spend all of her time around people younger than her? Sometimes, sure, but wouldn't older children be a better influence in general? More focused, more capable, more mature, and likely more interesting. Gah! "A Nation Decieved" has lots to say on this. I'll stay away from the soapbox here.

Originally Posted by mommyfied

Another thing I'll be dealing with, maybe, is that DD is an introverted thinker. I am an INTP usually, sometimes flipping to INFJ. She is very similar to me. The main comments we hear from teachers: "She doesn't talk." That's what teachers always said about me at parent/teacher conferences. I say, "She's probably not comfortable talking to you in front of the class. She is better one-on-one." The preschool teacher was concerned and even had the director take her into her office to talk to her, and she talked up a storm when she was in that situation. However, I'm not sure how she'll do on her testing with an unfamiliar person. Anyone have kids that ended up not testing well because of their personality?

My dd is quite similar - won't talk to strangers, takes forever to warm up. BUT she can befriend an adult in an instant if she takes an immediate liking to them, and she can (and does!) talk incessantly about things that interest her. Being introverted isn't valued in our culture, but it isn't necessarily a negative in the early school years. My own experience is that my dd is a good listener, follows directions perfectly, and is about as non-disruptive as a child can be. That makes her a teacher-pleaser, so her teachers have been very helpful in working with me to challenge her (that is, our conferences seem to focus on positives, not fixing negative behaviors). Once she warms up to her teachers, she loses all reservation with them, and they've both said she's a good contributor to class discussions (to my very great surprise!). So far, her introversion is serving her well. And fortunately, it isn't impacting her socially. She has a core group of 6-8 friends from kdg, and that's all she really needs or wants.

As far as testing goes, the not-talking issue is also a concern for me. I absolutely believe the wrong tester would have a negative impact on dd's scores. Perhaps you could talk to the school about meeting with the test administrator, and see if that person is a good fit with your dd? Or if you could even bring your dd and let her and the tester get to know each other a bit before the test. We should have done this before dd started kdg, but we didn't, and her abilities were not initially recognized in kdg because of this.

I am absolutely sure we did the right thing by sending dd to kdg at 4. But even if it was the wrong choice, it's not that hard to switch gears and transfer to a pre-k program after a few weeks. Keep in mind that most kdger's take 4-8 weeks to fully adjust. It's a hard decision, but if you're intent on what's best for your dd, you'll make the right choice.

And back to your original question, how do we respond? With other parents, we don't. It's none of their business. If we're grilled, we try to act like we're the normal ones: "So you would have held your child back? Hmmm. That's very interesting." Then change the subject. If we're really put on the spot: "DD's preschool teacher (or pediatrician or OT or whoever) strongly recommended we start kdg now." We don't go into details, and we certainly don't debate the issue.

With teachers and administrators, I keep my facts straight: "DD's reading at X grade level. She's doing Y grade math. She socially adept and has many friends from age A to age B. She's also doing a lot of extracurricular activities and loving them. Her coach/instructor/private teacher says dd is one of her best students. Would you like to see some documentation?" And then I hand them my folder, which I update every 2-3 months.

[mommyfied]

Wow, What Next?, our dds are very similar! Even down to the best friend at preschool.

For us, we knew our dd responded appropriately to older children, and acted more babyish with younger children.

We see this too. In fact, I've noticed it even more since starting this new preschool. I was ready to switch her after a month but her best friend is really important to her and DH didn't want to make her move again. We are trying to stick it out until Christmas.

My dd is quite similar - won't talk to strangers, takes forever to warm up. BUT she can befriend an adult in an instant if she takes an immediate liking to them, and she can (and does!) talk incessantly about things that interest her. Being introverted isn't valued in our culture, but it isn't necessarily a negative in the early school years. My own experience is that my dd is a good listener, follows directions perfectly, and is about as non-disruptive as a child can be.

LOL - she is the same. We can be walking through a store and she says hello to everyone and tries to engage some of them in conversation. Yet she won't talk to the teacher (or anyone, for that matter) that puts her on the spot. She's also a good listener and compliant at school. Home is another story!

As for the testing, I just realized they only do a simple kindergarten screening for Jr. K and K. That will be easy for her but there's not much there for them to see her shine. Being able to name off her letters and count is not all that impressive. It's her creativity and how she thinks that's important.

I'm impressed with the folder idea. Maybe I should collect some work samples to show some concrete examples of her giftedness. That would help us consider more than the simple screening results.

As for all the points about middle/high school... I really don't understand any of that since I was already that kid. I graduated at 17 and would have loved to take college courses earlier.

I was also thinking. I'm not actually that concerned about how she will do early on. I AM looking down the road when she'll be set in the ways of slacking off and rushing through all of her work so she can get to something more interesting.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

No, another year won't change her personality but another year will change how she manages it.

ITA. I have been there with DS, and I thought 2-3 years ago that early K was what we needed. As I looked into it, though, that wouldn't work for him. He's fine emotionally, but the requirement to sit & listen (to things that bore him to tears) and to wait in line for *everything* has been a challenge. He likes movement. If your daughter is more introverted and/or okay with being still, that may not be the case for her. DS did 1/2 days of preschool, and that worked well. It gave him some social outlet, me some work time, and it got him into the habit of "school."

Originally Posted by mommyfied

I just don't want the idea of her starting K early to be automatically shut down by the school because it's perceived that no one ever regrets holding a child back.

I do find that a weird comment, and it's not one I've ever heard. Perhaps you've heard it more in your former life as a K teacher? It's just not something I've heard parents mention. Plus, I can imagine it's true. If my child needed remediation, then no I wouldn't "regret" holding them back to get them what they need. That's an absurd argument, really.

Remember, too, that you're not talking about "holding back." You're talking about accelerating, so it's not a good comparison anyway. If that's where the conversation goes, then I would shut it down by saying that you're talking about different topics entirely.

[serenbat]

wanted to throw out there- in my state "school" is not mandated until age 8 and K is not funded (public)-you can place your child in when ever you want or wait and test to see what grade and go from their

many private K's do far more because of budget and maybe the way to go if you really feel you need to school at this time

[mommyfied]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I do find that a weird comment, and it's not one I've ever heard. Perhaps you've heard it more in your former life as a K teacher? It's just not something I've heard parents mention. Plus, I can imagine it's true. If my child needed remediation, then no I wouldn't "regret" holding them back to get them what they need. That's an absurd argument, really.

Remember, too, that you're not talking about "holding back." You're talking about accelerating, so it's not a good comparison anyway. If that's where the conversation goes, then I would shut it down by saying that you're talking about different topics entirely.

Good point - the comment came from the admissions officer. I was just gathering info on the phone anyway, so *hopefully* she was just doing the standard thing they tell parents at first to kind of weed out the people who could be easily swayed by those bogus arguments. I don't know.

[Qbear'smama]

DD started pre-K early and she's now in K at 4 (won't be 5 til April) it has worked out for us so far and because she's been in the same school since preschool, we were lucky because they knew her and approached us about her starting early rather than us having to approach an admissions office. I have looked into other schools (we want to move her next year because we want a bilingual school) and others who don't know her have been a little uncertain about what to do with her but we've made it clear we are not interested in her repeating a grade because there is no need, she's done really well. I imagine it will be easier since she's already accelerated, but they're still weirded out about it. But her teachers are adamant that they can't imagine her NOT being accelerated, given her personality I think we would have been dealing with a lot of acting out because of boredom and social frustration. We would have definitely regretted leaving her in the preschool for another year.