school seeing different kid then we see at home.

[JollyGG]

Had a long meeting with DS's teacher and principle on Monday. DS skipped 1st grade and is currently in 3rd grade in a full time gifted program. The meeting was to discuss some concerns they have about our son. He has problems with writing and they basically want us to spend more time working on writing at home. He also is having problems with focusing and transition in class. We are currently working on reducing screen time, eating a high protein breakfast, adding fish oil, and working on strategies for him to try in the classroom to maintain his focus. They also expressed issues with lack of consistency in all his work but specifically in Math and wondered if a lower math group would be better. I let them know that I though his current math placement was appropriate and that I felt the consistency was more a matter of the focus issues. They expressed concerns about his writing as well. They report that his comprehension is high and his reading level is high but that he is having problems with things like summarizing a story. They showed me an example of a summary they weren't happy with and I pointed out that that was more of a writing issue than a reading issue. They reported observing him having problems with this skill in a small group activity as well.

Well last night I asked DS to give me three different types of summaries (all examples of summaries he couldn't do in class from the teacher). He managed all three just fine.

They moved his math group yesterday and when I emailed asking about the change as it was not what I felt we had agreed upon in the meeting. I was told that the new lower group seemed to be a good fit and the teacher observed that he needed the instruction. The materials covered in the class were borrowing in subtraction which is a skill he mastered quite some time ago. It's a skill I have observed him using in every day life on several occasions.

So I am just completely stumped. I don't have a clue why he performs so differently in class then he does at home. I don't know what's going on.

Any suggestions?

[cyberfish]

Sorry I have no good suggestions but I wanted to let you know that my daughter is the same way. She's only kindergarten but she won't exhibit the same high level of competency at school as she does at home.
In her case, I think it's a combination of: 1.) Wanting to fit in and not be too different from the other kids and 2.) Stranger anxiety with adults. She likes her teacher but it literally takes her months to a year to become completely comfortable around individual adults.

Maybe this is true for your son?

I see this in my daughter's extracurriculars also. At home she'll do her dance steps perfectly but at dance class she's tripping all over her feet.

I don't know if this is much help but hopefully you feel less alone in this now

[serenbat]

sadly if what you see at home is not what is happening at school I really don't know how much you can push them to do as you request if he not meeting what they require

perhaps they will move him back in his math group in time

working with the teachers and the school seem all that you can do short or removing him from the school and trying another- maybe the school is not just a good fit

[meemee]

oh JollyGG i am hugely struggling with this too. it is REALLY big for me.

should i let dd continue to make the decision, or should i step in.

i am going with the its dd's choice. in our case the teacher initially gives easy and hard work to see which kids do what and differentiate according to that. dd always, always chooses the easiest way out. every. single. time.

she told her K teacher 'i come to school to party, i go home to learn.' and that continues to be her attitude.

which is why i say this is her decision.

one of the things i have thought about is anxiety. is the whole school situation high anxiety for her and so she prefers to keep things low key. dd has anxiety and gets tummy aches regularly. the child who is blowing through my college text book is not even reading at the speed they expect at the end of the grade.

she hates, hates writing. still does. its too tedious for her. takes too much effort to be neat. so she doesnt get pulled up because she does the v. minimum. her thoughts run away too fast.

i feel if i go talk to the teacher (which i did intially, but havent gone back still) i will be going against her wishes. even during the meeting when dd was there she didnt want her teacher to know all that we did at home.

[LauraLoo]

Just want to pop in and say we are dealing with this, too.

DS is transitioning back into school after 2 years of HS'ing. He also just went through some serial leg casting (both legs) which caused some huge sleep deprivation in the last month. Even if we hadn't done the casting right now, I still know that *anxiety* is playing a huge card here. DS wanted to go back to school, so he's committed, but he's still on edge.

Another thing -- I absolutely know that the school, really most educational entities, do not teach the way that ds learns best. He's very, very visual spatial, whole to part kind of learner and very asynchronous in his learning and abilities. I think this is confusing his teacher.

Parent teacher conferences are in a couple of weeks.

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by JollyGG

Any suggestions?

For writing issues, I think I would emphasize for them that it may be a fine motor issue more than anything else. I would offer to do fun activities at home that will work on that, but not more writing homework. I would work on verbal summarizing and discussing of stories you read for fun, but I wouldn't make him write more after school. I would probably encourage stuff like working with clay, finger knitting, playing a musical instrument, whatever he likes that works on strength and control.

In math are most of his errors careless errors rather than conceptual ones? If so, I would encourage increasing the challenge rather than decreasing it. My daughter went to the high school last year for math (at age 10 turning 11). She got grades in the high 90's in Geometry and Alg. II but I still swear she would have flunked 6th grade math. It's not like she doesn't hate making mistakes, but it requires a certain level of complexity to engage her mind and keep her focused. Another issue I've come across with her math, is that her relatively slow processing speed didn't make her math abilities very apparent in a group setting. She's not the one who is going to be shooting her arm up the split second the problem is given. So, without other evidence of her math skills, teachers would assume she's just at the right level.

Just my random thoughts...

[eepster]

I wonder if this is the case with many students. They just live up to their abilities more in the more relaxed home environment.

DS wouldn't read at all his first year in Montessori in the 2yo stepping stones class. The next year in the 3-6 yo primary class he only read with the quieter teacher he seems to have connected with at first. When he finally read with the other teacher towards the end of the year, it was just a few Bob Books. Finally this year, he will sit and read to himself, but only in the afternoon of the days he is there a full day.

[karne]

We definitely see this, and I am coming to think it is an attention, as well as sensory issue. I think I sound like I'm in denial sometimes about my child, but we honestly see a much different child at home, and in fact almost everywhere, than we see at school. I haven't had the issue of my child being pulled bck into lower level groups, but I do see what I think of as not meeting potential. The hardest thing is that I think anxiety may creep in as a piece of the picture, but my ds loves school and loves his teachers, so I am hesitant to make a change at this point.

OP, I wonder about a second opinion, or even an outside assessment? I wonder about the school saying that your ds needs instruction on math skills you feel he mastered a while ago? How do you understand that?

[Bird Girl]

I have a question about the writing: First, has he had specific instruction in letter formation at any point in his school career? Second, is he expected to print or write in cursive at school? My gifted third grader (homeschooled) had a lot of reluctance and complaint about written assignments. I finally realized that she was shutting off her own internal voice in order to try to minimize the number of words she had to write. We practiced letter formation with the Handwriting without Tears series for a few (like ten) minutes per day. I also switched her from a wooden pencil to a mechanical pencil and fountain pen for ink assignments. The new writing instruments prevented her from pushing into the paper with too much force. Fixing her small motor issue opened up her ability to write down the things she was thinking.

Handwriting practice seems so boring and so meaningless, especially for a homeschooled kid. But I just thought of if as occupational therapy, and her writing suddenly shot ahead. Hope that helps.

[Rose-Roget]

I don't know your ds at all, so this is likely very off the mark. My ds (6) has difficulty with writing, focusing, and transitioning also, as well as inconsistency in work. We recently had him evaluated by private OT's who dx'd him with Sensory Processing Disorder. The fine motor is not really lack of perception or coordination or strength for him - it's sensory-based. I didn't bother going through the schools for this, because his ability to form letters would not have flagged him for OT and he would have been "Within normal limits" and the school OT isn't going to look at sensory stuff for most kids. Don't know if this is useful, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

[JollyGG]

I haven't forgotten this thread. I'm reading and digesting. I've had sick kids this week and haven't had the energy to reply. But I appreciate everyone's insights and you all have given me a lot to think about.

[straighthaircurly]

Originally Posted by Rose-Roget

I don't know your ds at all, so this is likely very off the mark. My ds (6) has difficulty with writing, focusing, and transitioning also, as well as inconsistency in work. We recently had him evaluated by private OT's who dx'd him with Sensory Processing Disorder. The fine motor is not really lack of perception or coordination or strength for him - it's sensory-based. I didn't bother going through the schools for this, because his ability to form letters would not have flagged him for OT and he would have been "Within normal limits" and the school OT isn't going to look at sensory stuff for most kids. Don't know if this is useful, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

This is exactly the situation for our DS also. The OT helped and things are getting a little better in 2nd grade, but putting all the pieces together for writing is still tedious for him. So while he has very complex ideas that he can express verbally, if you ask him to write them on paper he will simplify the ideas so much (in order to lessen the writing burden) that it seems like he doesn't understand. This is true for many gifted kids in early grades, their thinking speed and depth far exceeds their ability and desire to take time to record their thoughts on paper.

If he skipped a grade I am guessing that you have probably had some outside testing done. If not, then consider doing some. Then sit down with the school and review those results. If they have a gifted program they should have methods in place for working with a child who has writing issues.

You also don't say if there were any issues or concerns in 2nd grade. Can the second grade teacher give the current teacher any information that could help?

Also, what are your son's thoughts on all this? I am very open and upfront with my DS when it comes to what is happening with his different areas of school. My DS often prefers the "easy" route, so I try to make sure that he has a balance in his life, some challenge some easy.

[JollyGG]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts, suggestions, and ideas. To answer some of the questions asked:

Originally Posted by mom2ponygirl

In math are most of his errors careless errors rather than conceptual ones? If so, I would encourage increasing the challenge rather than decreasing it.

His Math errors are typically careless errors. He rarely has problems with the concepts actually being taught. The teacher also reports having to reteach the concepts several times to him because he's just not paying attention. I am in the process of composing an email explaining some of my issues with moving him back in Math and am suggesting that once they complete their trial of him at the lower math group that they allow him to trial the 4th grade math group. The only problem I see there is that he hasn't memorized all of his multiplication facts yet.

Originally Posted by karne

OP, I wonder about a second opinion, or even an outside assessment? I wonder about the school saying that your ds needs instruction on math skills you feel he mastered a while ago? How do you understand that?

We decided to go to a consultation with a tutoring center with a good reputation locally for working with gifted kids. I've had at least 3 parents from my son's full time gifted school say they have had their kids there and have positive things to say. We are having them do an ability assessment some time next week. We are looking at the possibility of tutoring in writing but will be very interested to see the grade equivalencies they give us for Math.

Originally Posted by Bird Girl

I have a question about the writing: First, has he had specific instruction in letter formation at any point in his school career? Second, is he expected to print or write in cursive at school? My gifted third grader (homeschooled) had a lot of reluctance and complaint about written assignments. I finally realized that she was shutting off her own internal voice in order to try to minimize the number of words she had to write. We practiced letter formation with the Handwriting without Tears series for a few (like ten) minutes per day. I also switched her from a wooden pencil to a mechanical pencil and fountain pen for ink assignments. The new writing instruments prevented her from pushing into the paper with too much force. Fixing her small motor issue opened up her ability to write down the things she was thinking.

Handwriting practice seems so boring and so meaningless, especially for a homeschooled kid. But I just thought of if as occupational therapy, and her writing suddenly shot ahead. Hope that helps.

He did the general writing they do in Kindergarten and last year in second they did "handwriting without tears". This year they are supposed to be working on cursive writing but they really aren't making any progress on it. One problem with writing is that he taught himself to write prior to K and then had to unlearn the way he had taught himself to write letters. He was only semi successful at it and now has a mixed up letter formation process with 1/2 the letters starting at the top and 1/2 starting at the bottom. I do think that he does try to compress and simplify his thoughts to minimize the writing. We have ordered 3rd grade "handwriting without tears" to work on at home. My hope is that a fresh start with cursive may improve things. We are also working on keyboarding. We are considering a local tutoring place to work on writing rather intensively but they are very expensive. We have an evaluation with them upcoming.

Originally Posted by straighthaircurly

This is exactly the situation for our DS also. The OT helped and things are getting a little better in 2nd grade, but putting all the pieces together for writing is still tedious for him. So while he has very complex ideas that he can express verbally, if you ask him to write them on paper he will simplify the ideas so much (in order to lessen the writing burden) that it seems like he doesn't understand. This is true for many gifted kids in early grades, their thinking speed and depth far exceeds their ability and desire to take time to record their thoughts on paper.

If he skipped a grade I am guessing that you have probably had some outside testing done. If not, then consider doing some. Then sit down with the school and review those results. If they have a gifted program they should have methods in place for working with a child who has writing issues.

You also don't say if there were any issues or concerns in 2nd grade. Can the second grade teacher give the current teacher any information that could help?

Also, what are your son's thoughts on all this? I am very open and upfront with my DS when it comes to what is happening with his different areas of school. My DS often prefers the "easy" route, so I try to make sure that he has a balance in his life, some challenge some easy.

His second grade teacher was absolutely horrible. These were issues last year but we were unsure how much of the issues were ones with my son and how many were his teacher absolutely horrid classroom management. We did have an evaluation before the skip. However they were only the brief evaluations our district offers. So we don't have a full scale IQ or ability testing results like I wish we did.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by JollyGG

The only problem I see there is that he hasn't memorized all of his multiplication facts yet.

You should look at some of the many threads that are on MDC, about why memorization of "math facts" is a poor strategy for mastery of simple base ten arithmetic. We have onegoing right now over in the learning at school forum.

[joensally]

If you're looking at all this remediation, which is both a cost and time burden, could you look at doing a full psych-ed? They can be extremely informative, and could direct where to focus your efforts. DS has SPD and dysgraphia and I find it hard to balance school, remediation and his own interests in his life, never mind mine! He also burns out if we're doing too much, and he starts to get more focussed on his "deficits" when we're remediating too many of them. DS is great at conceptual math but doesn't have the automaticity for math facts the school is looking for. I'm not even worrying about math this year as I see the printing having a broader impact overall. The written output load increases dramatically in gr4 IME.

[JollyGG]

Well he stayed in the lower Math group for one Chapter and when the chapter was over they decided to keep him in the lower math group because he only scored 80% on the chapter test and he seems really stressed out.

I tried explaining that the stress is coming from trying to prove himself while at the same time working below his ability level.

We got an evaluation at the tutoring place. They went ahead and did a complete evaluation even though our main concern was writing. We thought a complete picture would be good.

The evaluation had him at a 6-7th grade reading level, a 4th grade Math level (he didn't want to do the multiplication or division on the test) and on grade level with writing though she did identify some gaps in his writing ability that they can work on. We haven't decided on the tutoring but do plan to share his evaluation results with the teacher.

Who knows what she'll want to do with the information. But at this point at least someone other than his father and I see some of the same things.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by JollyGG

We got an evaluation at the tutoring place. They went ahead and did a complete evaluation even though our main concern was writing. We thought a complete picture would be good.

Tutoring places do evaluations? Can you tell us more.

[JollyGG]

Originally Posted by eepster

Tutoring places do evaluations? Can you tell us more.

Achievement, not ability.

This is the first tutoring place I've ever been to but they came highly recommended by parents of other gifted kids (I know of at least 4 other parents who have taken their kids there to work on issues).

For reading they did the Slosson Oral Reading Test , GORT-4, and DAR. For writing they did a TWS (Test of Written Spelling) and another writing test based on the school districts rubric. I'm not sure of the exact tests for Math but I got a computation score and a problem solving score.

They use the evaluations to recommend a plan for the tutoring.

[joensally]

Does the school understand asynchrony? Isn't it a gifted school, IIRC?

[Tigerle]

In math are most of his errors careless errors rather than conceptual ones? If so, I would encourage increasing the challenge rather than decreasing it.[...]It's not like she doesn't hate making mistakes, but it requires a certain level of complexity to engage her mind and keep her focused.

This is true for many gifted kids in early grades, their thinking speed and depth far exceeds their ability and desire to take time to record their thoughts on paper.

At a gifted school, teachers should know this. I think it is really weird that they appear to have never heard of these problems being common with gifties (particularly grade-skipped gifties, which aren't so uncommon either), and that the way to resolve it is stepping up the complexity, and lowering the standards for written output. I guess this is what Joensally is getting at: there seem to be some very basic misunderstandings about giftedness and asynchrony that maybe can be helped better by throwing some generic, evidence-based information from hoagies or wherever at them instead of focusing on the specific issues of your son, whom they seem to have thoroughly and unhelpfully labeled.