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Would you cut out a close family member for circ'ing? - Page 2

Poll Results: Would you cut a close family member out for circ'ing if you knew they had all the info?

 
  • 2% (3)
    Yes! That is a deal-breaker, and I will never speak to him/her again.
  • 6% (10)
    I would severely limit contact, but I want baby boy in my life.
  • 52% (76)
    No, but I would still be upset over their choice.
  • 38% (56)
    No, it's not my business how they raise their child.
145 Total Votes  
post #21 of 57
I would not cut them out of my life. They wouldn't be in my inner circle (very few are). I would continue circumcision opposition, even where they can "see" it (facebook, etc). I would revisit the issue if/when they became pregnant again.
post #22 of 57
I promise I am not trying to be arguementative! I'm just trying to understand others perspectives. Perhaps I am just naive, but I can't help but wonder about this now...

How would cutting family members out of your life for circ'ing improve the situation? I (personally) just don't understand how it would be beneficial for anyone involved.

Please don't flame me. And sorry OP for asking this (not trying to hijack your thread), but it seems to tie into your original question I think.
post #23 of 57
I believe that every time that this discussion comes up, it gets locked b/c of a fundamental misunderstanding - that people are ending friendships or limiting family relationships in order to punish or make a point, when that is usually not the case. I would curtail or limit any relationship over circumcision, but not to "punish" the other parent - I would do it b/c it makes me nauseous, in pain, and terribly upset to be reminded of what happened to the child. It is not a choice - it is self-protection. I can't spend all my time with friends or family in the brain spiral of being nauseous thinking about circumcision.

Quote:
How would cutting family members out of your life for circ'ing improve the situation? I (personally) just don't understand how it would be beneficial for anyone involved.
So, to answer your question, limiting my relationship helps me not be obsessive about a sad, yet unchangeable situation.

I take offense when people suggest that I would love my family less, or value friendships less. That is not it. I am just that disgusted by circumcision.
post #24 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazymamatoo View Post
I promise I am not trying to be arguementative! I'm just trying to understand others perspectives. Perhaps I am just naive, but I can't help but wonder about this now...

How would cutting family members out of your life for circ'ing improve the situation? I (personally) just don't understand how it would be beneficial for anyone involved.

Please don't flame me. And sorry OP for asking this (not trying to hijack your thread), but it seems to tie into your original question I think.
It really doesn't fix anything. People will do what they are going to do.

In my options, I am talking about how people so against circ can see it happen to a loved one's child, and whether the pain was so great to know that they chose something like this (mutilation, cosmetic surgery, unnecessary medical procedure, whatever you choose to call it) would you be able to look them in the eye? Could you ever have the same relationship again, knowing what they did?

It's not about fixing anything, it is about your feelings as a woman loving her nephew or other relative, and understanding the pain they have been put through by the people who are supposed to protect them.
post #25 of 57
Galatea, you said that so well.
I have never had a family member circumcise when being fully informed. All of the babies were born long before I had mine and became informed.
I just recently had some friends of my husband say they were intending to circumcise after being fully informed (and yes, at least the husband was fully informed as I informed him personally with written material, dvds and a conversation.) I do not know what they decided ultimately and I won't ask. I don't have much respect for their parenting choices already. I am not close to them. I do see them in a much different light now and I am polite but I don't feel the need to be any friendlier than that.
It's hard to fight social conditioning. It runs so deep in some people.
post #26 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
No. Family trumps foreskin.
Totally
post #27 of 57
.
post #28 of 57
Galatea - Thank you for answering me so eloquently. I can absolutely see what you are saying.

As I said before, my situation is fairly unique...as in there's no way I can could cut them out of my life because I feel that my nephew needs me, y'know?

Honestly, though, I have to admit that there is a discord in my relationship with my brother and SIL that wasn't there before. But, as I am needed and they do feel remorse over the decision they made (in part due to an enormous amount of pressure from her ENTIRE family), I still feel a desire to have them in my life. BTW, they have both said "Never again!" So, if they do have another son in the future, he will remain intact.

Frontierpsych - I'm glad you did not take offense to my asking. For your poll I chose: "No, but I would still be upset over their choice." To expand on that, I don't think my brother and I will ever be as close as we were. So it DID affect our relationship. I still love him and his wife, but I think I have lost...I don't know, I was going to say "a bit of respect for them", but I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's more that there is now a disconnect between us that was never there before. Does that make sense?
post #29 of 57
I severely limited contact for about two years. Then I was able to contact them again (but still don't have frequent contact.)

I had given them all of the information, by the way.
post #30 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post
No. Family trumps foreskin.
Absolutely.
post #31 of 57
I'm going through this now with my best friend. I feel it is totally wrong and I've tried to educate her. When it comes down to it I can't cut her out. Even though I've given her info I think sometimes even if printed info and conversasion are right in front of them they don't really *get* it. I know her husband isn't in agreement with me at all.

I think of mistakes I made as a new parent and I can't do it. We all make parenting mistakes and some of them we seriously regret later. There are things I've done that I would trade years of my life to go back and change if I could but I really didn't fully get it then.

I know she needs help navigating the first years of parenting and I'd be doing her and her new baby worse if I were to abandon them. I can still be a good influence in so many other areas.

It really hurts to know that if she has a boy it will likely happen but I know I've done all I can and ultimately it is still legally their choice right or wrong.
post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
well your nephew is also family and in the hypothetical question in the OP is being irrevocably and heinously hurt by another family member that is supposed to be protecting him.

And so you would cut your nephew out of your life as well, because of something that happened to him that was out of his control? If you disown his parents, you're pretty sure to be disowning him as well.
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog Mtn View Post
I think of mistakes I made as a new parent and I can't do it. We all make parenting mistakes and some of them we seriously regret later. There are things I've done that I would trade years of my life to go back and change if I could but I really didn't fully get it then.
Circumcision is one of the many things I would change if I could go back and do it over. I cannot believe I would ever hold circumcision over someone's head for the rest of their lives unless (1) he/she were fully informed before the decision was made AND (2) were still totally convinced it was the right decision forever and ever AND (3) were smarmy, overbearing and argumentative about the decision being right and my regret being wrong.

Life is too short not to forgive someone his or her shortcomings, especially if there is true regret and guilt over a mistake. We cannot learn if we are perfect all the time.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
And so you would cut your nephew out of your life as well, because of something that happened to him that was out of his control? If you disown his parents, you're pretty sure to be disowning him as well.
Yeah, I don't get that. Also, it seems like people are quick to forget that when parents consent to having their sons circumcised, they truly believe they are doing the best thing for them. That's why it bugs me when it's compared to child abuse or other acts of violence. Yes, it's mutilation to us, but your sister, or SIL, or cousin, or friend who decides to have it done, clearly doesn't feel that way. The intent to hurt another human being isn't there. It is possible to have read through information and researched for hours and talked to your trusted doctor and still come to the conclusion that going ahead with circumcising is the right call for your new baby boy. I know it's hard to understand for many here (and fwiw, I grew up in a family of intact boys, DH is intact, and all 3 of my DS's are intact)... but, I'm pretty sure that every mother and father who agree to circ, does so with the best interest of their child in mind.

I get that cutting off or limiting contact is a coping mechanism for the intactivist, and not to teach the family member or friend a lesson, but I gotta say, to me - when relationships are something to treasure - that sounds really selfish. And surely that sweet baby boy, who may be your nephew, shouldn't have less people surrounding him and loving him because of something outside of his control.
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
Yeah, I don't get that. Also, it seems like people are quick to forget that when parents consent to having their sons circumcised, they truly believe they are doing the best thing for them. That's why it bugs me when it's compared to child abuse or other acts of violence. Yes, it's mutilation to us, but your sister, or SIL, or cousin, or friend who decides to have it done, clearly doesn't feel that way. The intent to hurt another human being isn't there. It is possible to have read through information and researched for hours and talked to your trusted doctor and still come to the conclusion that going ahead with circumcising is the right call for your new baby boy. I know it's hard to understand for many here (and fwiw, I grew up in a family of intact boys, DH is intact, and all 3 of my DS's are intact)... but, I'm pretty sure that every mother and father who agree to circ, does so with the best interest of their child in mind.

I get that cutting off or limiting contact is a coping mechanism for the intactivist, and not to teach the family member or friend a lesson, but I gotta say, to me - when relationships are something to treasure - that sounds really selfish. And surely that sweet baby boy, who may be your nephew, shouldn't have less people surrounding him and loving him because of something outside of his control.
I'd like to comment on the three sections I bolded.
Parents circumcise their children because they love them. They leave them intact because they love them too. The difference between the two is that one has overcome the social brainwashing and cultural conditioning to see the issue in it's factual basis. The other hasn't. BUT, both are acting out of love for their child.

I think that an informed parent who still chooses to circumcise is aware that the baby will suffer some pain but they believe that short term pain will alievate longer term pain (be it physical from infections or other problems they imagine or emotional via teasing). They weigh out what they percieve as pros and cons and come out on the side of cutting. They might know that the child will suffer some physical pain short term, but they carry on with it in a (probably misguided) intention to shave their child later pain.

Limiting contact certainly limits the pain of the informed intactivist being reminded of the assault and pain the baby went through. I understand this so well. I have an aquaintance whose children are well into childhood and I never see or think about those boys without visualizing them strapped to a circumstraint. It's a horrible visual and thought. The pain of circumcision ripples out far and wide and encompasses many more individuals than just the baby. Being an activist means having to face the issue in all it's ugly truth and having to face that sometimes the information we put out will not be taken up and applied. One has to develop some thicker skin. It's not about you as an intactivist and educator. All you can do is know that you conveyed facts with a clearn intention of minimizing harm and pain to a helpless infant. I think it's important for intactivists to develop some tools to handle this emotional pain. Meditate, find some prayers of release, some way to let go of the pain.

I also think that anyone in the position of educating a mother should share the "Regret thread" here at this forum. It speaks so deeply to the sorrow of mothers who were misled into circumcising their sons. It touches in a place that only the shear sorrow of experience can touch. The parents who have shared their stories are very brave and loving souls and I thank them for sharing their painful honesty. it helps so many others to see a side of the issue that they might not have thought about. Here's a link to it: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410
post #36 of 57
Thread Starter 
OP again--

I live in a very low-circ area, whereas my sister lives in a high-circ area. Do you think this makes a difference? I have not heard either her or her fiancée bring up the locker room argument. Who the heck gets butt naked in the locker room anyway these days? Our school had changing stalls, and even the girls who changed at their lockers were pretty quick to pull their pants back up and pull on a shirt. Do guys really sit around naked in the locker room and compare penises? I doubt it.

Thus far, their reasoning is mostly due to cultural pressure to "fit in". I just do not see it being an issue, even in a high-circ area. Keep it in your pants!

As for the relationship issue (ie: partner will run screaming at the sight of a foreskin) I'd see it as a shallow girl/guy filter.
post #37 of 57
I want to remind you to keep the TCAC forum guideline in mind when posting:
Quote:
In an effort to minimize language which might alienate those seeking information, we are cautious about using pejorative terms such as abuse, barbarism, mutilation, etc. when routinely discussing circumcision. Let the facts speak for themselves.
Thanks.
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by frontierpsych View Post
I live in a very low-circ area, whereas my sister lives in a high-circ area. Do you think this makes a difference? I have not heard either her or her fiancée bring up the locker room argument. Who the heck gets butt naked in the locker room anyway these days? Our school had changing stalls, and even the girls who changed at their lockers were pretty quick to pull their pants back up and pull on a shirt. Do guys really sit around naked in the locker room and compare penises? I doubt it.

Thus far, their reasoning is mostly due to cultural pressure to "fit in". I just do not see it being an issue, even in a high-circ area. Keep it in your pants!
I live in a high-circ area. Honestly, I don't even know any other boys that are intact.

My DS is 4 and we already have him asking why some kids have funny looking penises. We have really good friends with boys the same age as ours. They were out playing in the sandbox and decided to splash around in the baby pool. We all live way out in the country, no need for bathing suits, all the boys jumped in the little pool. Apparently DS noticed that his friend had a different looking penis and asked me about it later that night.

He has also asked me why Daddy's "pee-thing" hangs out.

I'm not saying, "I want him to look like Daddy" is a good argument.

I'm saying that it does come up and it's sooner than I ever expected.
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
well your nephew is also family and in the hypothetical question in the OP is being irrevocably and heinously hurt by another family member that is supposed to be protecting him.
This is my *actual* family you're talking about. Real people behind the computer screen here. *waves*

If I cut out my sister (which I have absolutely NO interest in doing anyhow) I'd also be cutting out my nephew. So, how the heck is that helping him in any way? If he knows the truth then he'd grow up thinking that it was somehow his fault that my sister and I didn't talk anymore. If he didn't know the truth he'd think there was some other crazy reason his aunt wasn't part of the family. How is that helping anybody? At best it would leave me not being part of his life, not having any influence, and not getting to see him grow up. At worst it would "irrevocably and heinously hurt" him to know that his freakin' penis was the reason his mom and her sister were no longer close.



Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
And so you would cut your nephew out of your life as well, because of something that happened to him that was out of his control? If you disown his parents, you're pretty sure to be disowning him as well.
Exactly.


And, how about ILs? They circed my husband. Perhaps I should have created huge strife in my life and refused to ever meet them because they did what THEY THOUGHT WAS THE BEST THING. And, had I done that, I would have never ended up marrying my husband. Therefore I'd not have my husband or my beautiful daughter.

Also, I happen to be pretty fond of my husband's penis, circed or not.

I think that if you'd cut out your sister (or cousin or aunt or whatever) and therefore cut out your nephew that you're just adding a great disservice on top of a sad decision.

How would you feel if your sister cut you out because she didn't believe in co-sleeping? That she thought you were putting your child in DANGER because you were co-sleeping. Well, I'm sure many of you would say good riddance because you don't seem to have strong bonds with your families. But for me- my mom didn't like the idea of cosleeping. But she accepted that it was my choice to make- even if she thought it was dangerous. And, I'm sure you'll say "but it's not dangerous" but to HER it is. So from HER angle it would be the same thing.

Gah, this thread is making me want to bash my head against the wall and cry. It's honestly making me consider cutting MDC out of my life (I'm sure a chorus of "good riddance" will follow).

I should thank you, though. I was feeling horribly sick about the fact that my sister circed her son. I was obviously not even considering cutting her out, but I was completely frustrated with her because of it. But, you've all helped me clarify my feelings and feel less angry with her. Thanks!
post #40 of 57
My DSS circed her son even though all 4 of her nephews are intact. I have found myself distancing myself from her family since she had her son. Circumcision isn't the only issue though, she stopped breastfeeding because it was "Cramping her party style"

Where I live circumcising is not as common as leaving your child intact so, it actually does make it seem like more of a selfish or lazy decision. The only people I know who have circed their kids have done so to please the father, not for the good of the child, but to avoid an argument and to me that isn't responsible parenting.

Take care
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