s/o The NonStopTalking kid and the sibling who needs to sleep

[Tigerle]

I know this is not necessarily a gifted issue, but there are so many parents here with this kind of kid, maybe someone can help me with their experiences...

DD is a very easy baby at night and in the mornings - which is when DS is either asleep or in preschool. From the time he comes home until they go to bed, the NonStopTalking (at a very high pitch, too) makes her increasingly frazzled until I cannot get her to quieten down at all. Then DS turns up the volume to be heard, DD cries louder, a vicious circle ensues until I start yelling - you get the picture. She used to just incessantly nurse after 6 pm or so, but now that she's settling in a more regular nursing pattern, she'll just cry...at least DH is home by that time, but it would be nicer if it did not get to that point so we could actually have supper together!
Weather permitting, I just plunk her into the stroller and tell DS to get his bike, but it's not always feasible and winter will make this harder. I have offered DS a choice of going to his room to play legos, or me taking DD away to the bedroom to get her to sleep, but he will refuse, insist he'll shut up...sometimes I just remove ourselves but DS will follow. Today he was actually able to occupy himself somewhat quietly with a book in the bedroom while I lay down with DD to get her to fall asleep, but the problem was I kept falling asleep too, and he'd hop over to us on all fours yelling at me to wake up, jolting DD awake every time, until I started yelling again...
I have started to sign him up for lunch at preschool and pick him up at 2 pm more often on the days DH comes home late in the afternoons, as he seems to begin to enjoy the quieter aftercare classroom. But I feel guilty about leaving him longer. He goes to the grandparents one afternoon a week and I know they'd take him more often than that - in fact they often do on an ad hoc basis, and I'd feel guilty about leaving him more often with them. But I also feel guilty about telling him to go to his room to occupy himself quietly, as this is just not yet his habit. Everything, it seems to me, could lead to sibling resentment eventually.
Thoughts?

[joensally]

Do you have a sense that the verbosity is a preference or a need? I don't think it's fair to baby to be wound up all evening, and she has a need for calm and she's expressing that clearly. So what are DS's needs? Does he need to be a busy, noisy monkey all evening, or does he just like it?

If it's simply a preference, I'd set boundaries up for him. Jumping on the bed with all fours is unacceptable, disrespectful and unkind. Period. I would manage this behaviour with whatever discipline strategy you employ. If he's getting your attention he'll keep doing it; if he's had ample attention earlier (as it sounds he has), he needs to be kind to the people he loves and not startle them and let them sleep. If he can't choose to be considerate (which is hard for a 4 year old), make it less appealing.

If it's a need, then you're on the right track trying to find alternate opportunities for energy expenditure (ie bike riding). Could you set up a swing in the house that he could chill in? These can be extremely effective at calming and centering.

Have you ever seen a toobaloo?
http://www.amazon.com/LEARNING-LOFT-.../dp/B000F8R6EU

Two great things - it gives the child someone to listen to them talk (themselves ) and also helps them to modulate their volume. Over time, they may adjust their natural speaking volume.

As for longer school hours or being with grandparents, this doesn't sound like a bad solution to me. He gets his needs for interaction met, and baby gets peace. This isn't likely a forever stage - she'll become more interested as she gets older and will become a natural playmate, and he'll settle some. This is a natural part of being a sib - giving a little.

[Tigerle]

Thank you, that is helpful. I think I need to feel validated that it's time to set more boundaries - " a process that started with reading "Living with the active alert child" recently. I just have to figure out how to do it without losing my cool, cause so far only yelling seems to help.

About whether it's a need or a preference - I wish I knew. When we ask him to please let someone else have their say, he'll melt down and cry that by then he'll have forgotten what he meant to say. He also insists he can't talk more softly - he'll try and the volume will creep up again until it's at his usual pitch. I think it's a sensory thing, too, as when he has nothing to say he will start repeating silly sentences in a silly voice, or make noises going oomph oomph oomph or tock tock tock rhythmically, or doing spit play, or he'll mouth whatever's available, from his t-shirt to the cat scratching post. This has actually gotten much worse recently and is driving me batty too. With the requisite asynchronous moments in between when he is describing complex technical devices or making astute observations that make your jaw drop. He also has a hard time focusing on stuff unless he is interacting, like playing a board game, and remembering the table manners he used to have. I realize he is beginning to sound like he has special needs, but so far I tend to chalk it up to adjusting to his sibling...he's just no fun right now, and that is a new feeling for me to have: ever since he's started talking I've enjoyed him so much, but there is nothing enjoyable about oomph oomph oomph. (Nor do I think baby is fun yet, just cuddly and needy, so i do not think it is actual focused jealousy. he's got so much more of my attention than he's ever had when I WOHM).

We'll try and hang up the swing in the attic again, but I am afraid he's never been interested in it, nor playground swings either. Or is it something more like a hammock you're thinking of? I am also planning to inquire about weighted blankets at the health store, as we will also have to do something about the nights - he's driven DH out of our bedroom with the constant kicking and moving about at night. Hmm. Is there more going on than meets the eye? If anyone has ideas, I'm all ear.

I will either ask the grandparents to take him for another regular day (MIL will have to have knee surgery soon, so this may not be feasible for a while) and/or sign him up for lunch on the other days, too, feeling guilty or not. today I am just exhausted. I am a bit worried about his protein intake because I am never sure how much he is actually eating at preschool...I realize with the monkeying about instead of sitting and eating at the table recently, this might also be an issue. I will check my stores for protein snacks.

Looks like they don't ship the toobaloo to Europe. I'll ask at the health store too, it looks like a great idea!

and thanks for listening.

[Bird Girl]

If the extra time at school is working for your family, then I would not feel a bit of guilt about it, especially if it allows you and the baby to get in a nap before pick-up time. Do you have a wind-up swing or a vibrating baby seat? Perhaps if you were able to get in a good nap, then when you do pick your son up, you could spend a little one-on-one time building a block city or playing a game while the baby buzzes in her baby seat?

Does your son take a nap at preschool? My children still napped at age four; we had (and still have, actually) an hour of "quiet time" after lunch, and at that age, they slept. Some of the wild behavior may be that over-tired "second wind" that leads to craziness. Does he need his bedtime moved earlier?

[Tigerle]

A nap before pick up time for Mama and baby sounds good! I am usually quite rested though, as the nights are fairly good at the moment, and I have a hard time falling asleep during the day unless I am drop dead exhausted, like I was yesterday. we do not have a vibrating baby seat and I am not sure it would solve the volume problem...

However, I noticed today at our first Montessori afternoon class (a once weekly pre-school/K program at the local elementary for non-Montessori kids who may want to join for 1st) that DS can lower his voice and can focus quietly for 90 minutes - I mean I kind of knew but it was nice to watch and be reminded, and DD had a great nap on the rug wrapped up in my winter coat. Though he fell apart immediately at the end when they were supposed to quietly change into outdoors clothing again and walk out behind the teacher in single file and went back to being in monkey mode. A combination of transition and exhaustion, I suppose. I am sure quality sleep is an issue as he moves around so much at night and often wakes up crying or wanting to cuddle. He hasn't napped since he was two and in the afternoons and evenings, it shows. But we can't move his bedtime earlier as he often wakes up at 6 am even so, sometimes on his won and sometimes because of DD nursing. Maybe we ought to tackle transitioning him from the sidecarred crib into his bedroom, but then again I cannot imagine him ready to leave with DD being allowed to stay next to me...
Another issue must be overstimulation at his play-based preschool during the busy mornings. The afternoon classrooms are much calmer. I shall have to think about whether they are more or less stimulating than time with the grandparents, who are great with him but love to take him on outings and stuff - maybe ask them to do more quiet stuff at home until things calm down somewhat - and just remind myself that this isn't a forever stage, like joensally said!
It is really helpful to process this here. Lots of stuff to think about.