Saying "no"

[MamaAsheri]

My son is 2.5 years old. We want to find a way to discipline him when he says "no". For example, we give him some sort of command and he responds with "no". What is an appropriate response from us that will teach him to respect our authority?

Thanks!
Dana

[Xerxella]

IMO -

Like anything kids say, alot of it's just to get a response or see what the reaction is. Since you're on the gentle discipline board I'll tell you my gentle discipline answer.

I think of discipline as a last resort. I said to myself, I'm not saying I'll never punish my child, but it's going to be the final answer. So far, I have yet to punish my 3 1/2 yo and 18 mo old. (And, of course, they are truly good obediant kids. More obediant than the punishers I know, actually.)

So, the 1st thing I do when either of my kids say no, is I consider whether this is optional or not. I mean seriously consider it. You say, ok, we're going outside, lets put our coats on. "No" (It's snowing freezing, January outside.) You say it's very cold outside, if you go outside with no coat you're going to be cold, why don't you put your coat on. "No" Personally, I let them go outside, hold the coat in my hand and wait until they start crying that they're cold and then put the coat on them and continue on with the day. (Natural consequences.)

Let's say natural consequences, isn't an option. (My daughter LOVES to stand on chairs. Falling and cracking her skull as a natural consequence is not an option.) I say, sit down please. "No" I say, "Yes, please" in a happy conversational voice. The vast majority of the time this works just fine, especially with my older child who has tested these sorts of limits before and knows that mommy means it. "No" Then I put on my serious, eyebrow raised face and stare at them and say in a serious voice, "You need to sit down, we sit in chairs, not stand." Then I continue to stare at her. At first this didn't work, so after about a minute, I would go over and take her off the chair and set her on the floor. (Now this really made her mad, since she had just worked so hard to get on the chair in the first place.) I would reinforce the rule that we don't stand on chairs and if she's not going to sit then she can't be on the chair.

My daughter is more strong willed than my son. It took about 2 weeks of this placing her on the floor before would sit down herself when I asked (Big smile, thank you honey, you're a real good girl, good job listening to mommy) and shortly after that she stopped standing on the chairs.

Totally worth it. Basically, zero conflict. And now good compliance. And, now she knows it that when mommy gets her serious face she's going to follow through.

I highly recommend "The Secret of Parenting" Love that book.

[mamazee]

He's just learning the power of language. When you say "no", things don't happen. What will happen when he says "no"? It's a learning experience. I would first of all not phrase things in a form that can in any way be taken as a question, so even be careful with "please". Kids can interpret "Would you please do X" as a question, and then get upset when they're made to do it when they said no. Better is to say, "I need you to do X now, thank you." Or please instead of thank you. Second, if he says no, just say, "Yes, we do have to do this" and continue with making it happen. As in, "Yes, you do have to get off the table", and then physically take him off the table. I wouldn't punish him. It's very developmentally normal, and he'll learn to respect you by growing with you and learning that you have his best interests at heart. No child of any age always complies with their parent, unless they're beaten into submission or something, so thinking that he should always do as he's told without question isn't a reasonable expectation.

[Adasmommy]

I think kids should be allowed to say, "no." They learned it from us and we should encourage them to learn from us

If there is no option, be careful not to phrase things as optional. Then if they say no, instead of disciplining the no, you just enforce what has to happen (hopefully in a loving and playful way).

Don't let "no" hurt your feelings, mama! We all get it and as long as you are a safe person for your kid to express himself to, the rebellious noises will probably just be a phase and the loving trust will be lifelong!

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by Xerxella

I think of discipline as a last resort...

...So, the 1st thing I do when either of my kids say no, is I consider whether this is optional or not. I mean seriously consider it. You say, ok, we're going outside, lets put our coats on. "No" (It's snowing freezing, January outside.) You say it's very cold outside, if you go outside with no coat you're going to be cold, why don't you put your coat on. "No" Personally, I let them go outside, hold the coat in my hand and wait until they start crying that they're cold and then put the coat on them and continue on with the day. (Natural consequences.)

Let's say natural consequences, isn't an option. (My daughter LOVES to stand on chairs. Falling and cracking her skull as a natural consequence is not an option.) I say, sit down please. "No" I say, "Yes, please" in a happy conversational voice. The vast majority of the time this works just fine, especially with my older child who has tested these sorts of limits before and knows that mommy means it. "No" Then I put on my serious, eyebrow raised face and stare at them and say in a serious voice, "You need to sit down, we sit in chairs, not stand." Then I continue to stare at her. At first this didn't work, so after about a minute, I would go over and take her off the chair and set her on the floor. (Now this really made her mad, since she had just worked so hard to get on the chair in the first place.) I would reinforce the rule that we don't stand on chairs and if she's not going to sit then she can't be on the chair.

[bcblondie]

Xerxella hit it on the head.

[Petie1104]

As the pp's said, don't state things as an option. After that, it's fairly simple. "Get down from the chair", "No" but by the time they are saying it, I am already getting them down from the chair. "You need to get your coat on" as I'm already putting the coat on. I have had them stand outside in the cold as well. That one teaches fairly quickly too. At 2 1/2, I was more of the, I'll say it, but before you get the opportunity to say no, I'm already making sure you are doing what I want. I also, at times, will say, "I know you don't want to, but you need to." Or this one works well with verbal children..."Can you do it yourself or do you need mommy's help". It's amazing how often they want to prove they are big kids and don't need mommy's help, so they hop to.

At this age, he's saying it just to see what happens, to assert his independence. He isn't being disrespectful, he doesn't comprehend respect, so there is no disrespect.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by MamaAsheri

My son is 2.5 years old. We want to find a way to discipline him when he says "no". For example, we give him some sort of command and he responds with "no". What is an appropriate response from us that will teach him to respect our authority?

Thanks!
Dana

Can he say, "I hear you mommy / I understand daddy. But I want..."

That's what we taught DD1 to do. It has worked pretty well. I think that is respectful but also allows her to express herself.

At 2 1/2, I was more of the, I'll say it, but before you get the opportunity to say no, I'm already making sure you are doing what I want.

I definitely gave my daughter the opportunity to take initiative at that age, and she did often do it herself. Otherwise, what's the point of saying it?

I did not say things twice or anything, but certainly gave her the chance to actually follow orders. She actually did more then than she does now at four, LOL!

[EdnaMarie]

Oh, and we're always disciplining our kids. To me, discipline is teaching. About social and natural consequences (logical consequences for me only happen in math, logic, and some spheres of physics...), about empathy, etc. Sometimes that's just explanation, sometimes it's letting her experience something, sometimes I just have to walk her through it myself, and a lot of time I try to set her up for success.

"No" I say, "Yes, please" in a happy conversational voice

While I try to remain calm, I never, ever pretend to be happy when I'm not, and I'm usually not happy if I'm late and my child refuses to help us get out the door.

However, I do find keeping my voice very low and a little quiet helps me personally keep calm. They know I'm serious and I'm not happy, but they also know I don't have the right to take my frustration out on them, and they know that anger doesn't *have* to happen.

Now, this is all in theory. In reality, when I don't set stuff up right (forgot to tell them the routine, forgot to bring snacks so they are upset, whatever), I end up with a lot of problems. Also, now that I have two kids, the natural consequence for a lot of things (e.g. will not put on carseat harness) ends up punishing two innocent people and one "guilty" party. I put "guilty" in quotes because she is the cause of the consequence... but of course I realize that it's not a crime to not want to put your seatbelt on yourself.

This has definitely thrown a wrench in the works. Also, I'm trying at her age (my DD is four) to help her do things HERSELF, as she's very, very social and she wants me involved in e-ve-ry-thing.

I am telling you my experience just so you know that although I am blabbing out advice, I know how hard it is to implement.

[One_Girl]

I just repeated my request with a "now please" and helped dd follow through at that age.

[hakeber]

I think Xerxella has some good ideas.

When DS said no to me at that age we would decide if it was really serious. If it was we would just remove him from danger, and make the request just happen. If it wasn't we'd let him explore the power of the word no. like winding up cold in the snow, or wet in the rain, or hungry before bed. Sometimes he would say no to stuff like ice cream, just because he wanted to try out No. Then we'd let it go and usually he would change his mind.

I think the best advice is to empathize, and simply say: "It's time to XYZ." and when he says "NO!" you say "I'm afraid it is." or "I know it's sooo sad, isn't it? I wish we could ABC too, but it's time."(and then ignore the screaming rant of nos to follow ) or hug him and say "I wish we could ABC but we're doing XYZ now."

I don't think punishments are the way to go. Listen to his nos. Some of them (especially at this age) will be just experimenting, but some of them may be reasonable Nos, and even if they are not he is entitled to his feelings about it, and at the moment his only way of expressing that frustration, disapproval or anger is: NOOOOOO! Soon he will have more words, but even up to adolsence, you can expect melt down modes to end in NOOOOOO. They mostly are not saying no to YOU as much as to the inevitability of the situation.

Besides, you don't want to have a kid who never knows how to say no. I have terrible issues saying no because I was never allowed to say it as a kid (by punishment of wooden spoon) and I am frequently overwhelmed with comittments to people I wish I had never agreed to.

[kathteach]

Sometimes my son says no even as he is doing the thing I have asked him that he said no to, so I just don't make an issue of it. Sometimes when he says no (like he doesn't want to go to the car) I ignore the no and continue getting ready, then when I am ready I give him choices (do you want to walk to the car or jump to the car?)

Sometimes that really helps.

As other pp have said it's developmentally appropriate and punishment just makes the issue bigger than it is.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by kathteach

So...when I am ready I give him choices (do you want to walk to the car or jump to the car?)

Sometimes that really helps.

This worked REALLY well with ds until he hit about 5 and then the jig was up. But before 5 if you said "Do you want to get down yourself or do you want mommy to help you?", "Do you want to put the toys in the box or in this bag?" or "do you want to wear your green shoes or your black ones?" He'd forget he didn't want to put on shoes in the first place. He can still be distracted by the choices sometimes, but not nearly as often.

I think in the toddler years their brains can't process open ended questions or commands as easily and giving them a set range of responses helps them to make a choice.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by Adasmommy

I think kids should be allowed to say, "no." They learned it from us and we should encourage them to learn from us

If there is no option, be careful not to phrase things as optional. Then if they say no, instead of disciplining the no, you just enforce what has to happen (hopefully in a loving and playful way).

Don't let "no" hurt your feelings, mama! We all get it and as long as you are a safe person for your kid to express himself to, the rebellious noises will probably just be a phase and the loving trust will be lifelong!

Also going through a "No!" phase is really normal for that age. They are learning the power of words and have realized they are a separate person who can make choices. My DD went through a period where she said no to everything, including stuff like "do you want ice cream" and "lets go to the park". My DH joked about her different "nos" because you could tell when she really meant yes by the inflection and tone.

We never discourage her to say no or stop because we feel that a child feeling able to say those words helps protect them from abuse and bullying. We actually have a family rule that you have to stop whatever you are doing to someone if they say stop unless it's a real safety issue. It's been really useful for teaching DD about social boundaries. The only inconveniences were occasional days of unbrushed hair.

[porcelina]

This is a helpful thread. I don't want to punish my almost 3 year old for this, but I have been searching for ways to deal with it. Our problem is, if I state it as a command, he still says "No." For example, "we need to pick up some of these toys so we don't trip." "No" or, more recently, "I want you to do it, Mama." Admittedly, before if he said "no," I would end up doing it myself, so maybe he thinks that's what "no" means in that case (i.e., I want you to do it). But, how do you enforce this one? Physically make him pick them up? We do it together? Any tips here?

I've also tried the two choices approach with my toddler, and he usually just says, "No, I don't want to xyz," even when given choices. Any other thoughts?

Originally Posted by hakeber 
This worked REALLY well with ds until he hit about 5 and then the jig was up. But before 5 if you said "Do you want to get down yourself or do you want mommy to help you?", "Do you want to put the toys in the box or in this bag?" or "do you want to wear your green shoes or your black ones?" He'd forget he didn't want to put on shoes in the first place. He can still be distracted by the choices sometimes, but not nearly as often.
 

 

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by porcelina 

This is a helpful thread. I don't want to punish my almost 3 year old for this, but I have been searching for ways to deal with it. Our problem is, if I state it as a command, he still says "No." For example, "we need to pick up some of these toys so we don't trip." "No" or, more recently, "I want you to do it, Mama." Admittedly, before if he said "no," I would end up doing it myself, so maybe he thinks that's what "no" means in that case (i.e., I want you to do it). But, how do you enforce this one? Physically make him pick them up? We do it together? Any tips here? 

I suspend all fun activity until request is done, unless it is a safety thing and then I just pick the child up and move them to safety. If it is picking up his stuff I let him know that if I have to pick it up he won't see it again for a LOOOOONG LOOOOOONG time.  Generally this makes him snap to because he knows I will.  One follow through was all it took to set the message in his head that I ain't playin'.  Pick it up or lose it.

Edited by hakeber - 11/11/10 at 5:37pm

[GoBecGo]

When DD was 2.5 i kind of ignored "no" since she often said it WHILST complying.  I looked at what she was doing more than listening to what she was saying.

At 4 she is very verbal, very smart and very capable of reasoning.  If i say "Tidy these toys up now please" she is capable of genuinely choosing to say "no" in the knowledge that i WILL do it, and i will tidy the toys into the garage where they will stay for at least a week because Mama doesn't like to do other people's work and if she has to she makes sure we won't have to again!  She is very occasionally so genuinely turned off by tidying up that she will choose that option.  Usually though just the reminder of that being the outcome will have her scrambling to help.  I try to take it on a case by case - if she's been playing happily and is now hungry/tired i ask her to tidy up as i begin helping out.  If she just threw all her toys around the room in a rage over something she needs to pick that mess up herself.

People warned me about 2 but for us 3 was harder and 4 is harder still.  The other day she said to me, in response to me asking would she please pick her toys up, "i don't want to mama, i don'y enjoy tidying, and let's face it, we both know YOU will do it because the baby wants to roll there and you won't make her suffer".  I reminded her that when she left her special teddy at XP's house her sister kindly lent her her own, so she wouldn't be lonely at night, a gesture which she was so moved by that she cried about it at the time (obviously the baby is 5 months old and it was MY gesture, but still) and decided that she DID want to clear a space for her after all.  She is FOUR!  Heaven help me when she's 5.