My verbal, social son flaps arms and goes into reveries

[michrichmond]

My son is five years old and his been flapping his arms since he was six months old. He does it when he is excited, but also when he is thinking. If we don't intervene, he can flap his arms while walking around the house on his tiptoes, hopping, and making sounds like "ppssshp pssssh" for twenty minutes at a time. He often will tell us what he was thinking about (usually it involves building robots inside his head).

He just started Kindergarten, and his teacher wants him to stop flapping. It has never bothered him before, but he now comes home feeling anxious, saying, "I flapped five times today." So he's aware that he's doing it, and he can stop once he starts if he is in a place where he's been told it's inappropriate (school), but he can't prevent it.

He's never had trouble making friends, and he has always been very verbal. I'm confused because any time I look up arm-flapping, the number one result that comes back is autism spectrum disorders, but because he has always been very verbal, affectionate, and social, I'm not sure how he would fit on that spectrum. He does have a hard time sitting down. He loves touching my hair or his dad's hair, and he can become very angry if he doesn't understand something or if we don't understand something he's trying to tell us. He also can be obsessive (having to stand at a specific spot on the carpet to hug his dad goodbye in the morning, etc.)

I found this board because a woman in 2007, username careywarey, posted about her son, whose behavior was identical to my son's...has anyone experienced this and found a diagnosis for it?

Thank you!!!

Michelle

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

[lotusdebi]

You can be on the autism spectrum, and still be verbal, affectionate, and social. I think you should look more into ASD. Also, look into sensory processing disorder. Here's a good site for that:
http://www.sensory-processing-disord...checklist.html

If I were you, I'd have a conversation with the Kindergarten teacher about the arm-flapping and your suspicions. I'd hate for the teacher to increase your child's anxiety, when the arm-flapping is something that may very well help him. If the arm-flapping is too distracting for the classroom, I'm sure you and the teacher can work together to find less distracting things that help your child in the same way.

Now may be a good time for you to find a developmental pediatrician and get on the calendar for an evaluation. And, if your insurance covers it, you might look for an occupational therapist near you. You may also ask about an evaluation through the school and occupational therapy through the school.

Good luck!

[michrichmond]

Thank you so much for your reply, lotusdebi. After doing some research a few months ago I looked into Aspergers and also read The Out-of-Sync Child and Sensational Kids, but I could not find enough corresponding symptoms to feel that Asperger's or sensory processing disorder were a good fit. We are on a wait list to see a pediatric neurologist at Stanford, but that will take months. Trying to figure out what makes our son tick is sort of like swimming in a big ocean looking for a single coral reef that looks like many other coral reefs. The range of disorders is so vast, with so many overlapping (or contradictory) symptoms.

His school is intervening, but we worry that they're doing it for the wrong reasons. His Kindergarten teacher is new and inexperienced and has never seen a child flap his arms, and I worry that she is quickly labeling him (only 8 weeks into his school experience) because of the arm-flapping. She has told us that none of the other children notice it yet, but because it's so disturbing to her, an activity that once gave our son comfort has become a terrible source of anxiety for him.

[EdnaMarie]

We cross-posted.

Can you talk with the teacher about it in more detail, and the principal?

[physmom]

Hi,

Your son sounds a lot like DD. She's been hand flapping since I can remember. She also does toe-walking too. I've looked into autism too but none of the symptoms really fit but we do wonder if she might have sensory issues. We've talked to our pediatrician who didn't see any need to worry at this point since she does so much pretend play and is very social. However, we are keeping an eye on the sensory issues (but at the moment it doesn't seem to be affecting he development). So I'm interested in what everyone else has to say.

With the hand flapping it doesn't bother me either but I know how it's perceived so I've found that distraction and playing around with it seems to help her. For instance, if she starts doing it and I do it too then she'll giggle and stop. Or if I get her involved in some sort of hand play it seems to help too. In DD's case hand flapping normally preempts a big temper tantrum if whatever is bothering her doesn't change ASAP.

[logan&jordansmommy]

My son is verbal, pretty social and on the spectrum. Not saying that is what is going on just saying that you can be those things and on the spectrum.

No matter what though, I would have a huge problem with the teacher making my son stop flapping just because SHE doesn't like it. My son hums and the kids don't care but his teacher and aide card and I quickly told them if it is not bothering anyone, to leave him alone. I have talked to one person personally (and I know there are more) that is on the spectrum and she told me when she was in school her teacher slapped a stick across her desk everytime she flapped. Well she stopped flapping by the end of the year but instead she started picking her skin and to this day can't stop the picking.

I would look into an OT eval with someone with sensory integration experience in the meantime of getting your eval. Given the right sensory input he may even stop flapping.

Good luck!

[joensally]

I don't know diagnostically what it could be - it could be just a kinetic activity that your son enjoys. Think about the people who chew gum, click or jitter with a pen and a host of other fidgets. It could be SPD or ASD, as they are both a spectrum. I think you're on the right track consulting a specialist.

As for the teacher - she needs to get a grip. In your shoes, I'd go in and tell her:
"We recognize that the flapping may be distracting and may or may not be an indicator of something neurological and we have an appointment with a neurologist in xx date to pursue that. In the meantime, it helps Sam keep his equilibrium and focus - it's actually productive for him. My concern is that if we're simply asking him to stop it without offering other strategies to meet whatever need this fills, and it's an entrenched pattern, he will be unsuccessful at stopping it, feel anxious, doubt himself AND not have whatever need it fulfills met. Making him self-consious about it could be very harmful and counter-productive."

If she doesn't come onboard, I would ask what resources the school/district can bring in to consult - maybe if she consults a resource teacher she'll gain a better understanding.

GL

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by joensally

I don't know diagnostically what it could be - it could be just a kinetic activity that your son enjoys. Think about the people who chew gum, click or jitter with a pen and a host of other fidgets. It could be SPD or ASD, as they are both a spectrum. I think you're on the right track consulting a specialist.

As for the teacher - she needs to get a grip. In your shoes, I'd go in and tell her:
"We recognize that the flapping may be distracting and may or may not be an indicator of something neurological and we have an appointment with a neurologist in xx date to pursue that. In the meantime, it helps Sam keep his equilibrium and focus - it's actually productive for him. My concern is that if we're simply asking him to stop it without offering other strategies to meet whatever need this fills, and it's an entrenched pattern, he will be unsuccessful at stopping it, feel anxious, doubt himself AND not have whatever need it fulfills met. Making him self-consious about it could be very harmful and counter-productive."

If she doesn't come onboard, I would ask what resources the school/district can bring in to consult - maybe if she consults a resource teacher she'll gain a better understanding.

GL

Ditto this.

She is making the situation worse by making him anxious about it. She should stop addressing it directly to him and take her concerns to you and/or the principal.

But, YES you can be social, verbal and be on the autism spectrum. It is a spectrum- with a wide variation of behaviors. One of my DDs has a PDD_NOS dx. She toe walks, flaps, 'touches' stuff, and has some sensory needs. BUT she is advanced academically,has a fantastic verbal ability, is very very affectionate, and has been/is in a general PreK program that she does just fine. She has toe walked since she could walk and flaps when she is excited/nervous/tired. It is just the way she is. Her teacher has her seated (during circle time) so that her occasional clicking (verbal), or flapping do not distract anyone else. Problem solved and everyone learns and participates.


Obsessions are also developmental.Most 3-6 yr olds have them, but it is the DEGREE and intensity that they look at autism spectrum. A lot of people display autistic behaviors at some time in their lives, but again---the amount, degree, and intensity is the determining factor.

I would go ahead with an evaluation if you want to ease your concerns or get some more information. I have found that school evaluations are helpful in knowing how to academically make school a positive experience. They also give you an outside opinion on how your child is doing for their age.

If you are not comfortable with the eval, you can postpone it or deny it. It is your right as a parent.

Is he academically and socially otherwise on track?

I would absolutely talk to his teacher though. She needs to make sure your son feels supported, not anxious. Especially if it is not interfering with his interactions with other students.

[SpottedFoxx]

Originally Posted by joensally

I don't know diagnostically what it could be - it could be just a kinetic activity that your son enjoys. Think about the people who chew gum, click or jitter with a pen and a host of other fidgets. It could be SPD or ASD, as they are both a spectrum. I think you're on the right track consulting a specialist.

As for the teacher - she needs to get a grip. In your shoes, I'd go in and tell her:
"We recognize that the flapping may be distracting and may or may not be an indicator of something neurological and we have an appointment with a neurologist in xx date to pursue that. In the meantime, it helps Sam keep his equilibrium and focus - it's actually productive for him. My concern is that if we're simply asking him to stop it without offering other strategies to meet whatever need this fills, and it's an entrenched pattern, he will be unsuccessful at stopping it, feel anxious, doubt himself AND not have whatever need it fulfills met. Making him self-consious about it could be very harmful and counter-productive."

If she doesn't come onboard, I would ask what resources the school/district can bring in to consult - maybe if she consults a resource teacher she'll gain a better understanding.

GL

You know, my good friend's son is a flapper and toe walker and has absolutely, positively NO developmental delays whatsoever. It maybe simply a sensory thing that your child does to center himself. Doesn't mean he has a sensory issue - we all self sooth somehow - some are just more obvious than others.

[Petie1104]

Seriously, that teacher needs to be addressed. She is probably worsening the problem by her actions, not helping it. I used to flop upside down in my desk. I did that until I was 10. My 4th grade teacher simply told me that if I did while she was teaching then there would be a consequence but other than that I was seen as quirky. (Still don't know why I did that, but I did it at home too, I'd watch tv upside down read upside down etc.) None of my teachers took issue as long as it wasn't disruptive.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by joensally

I don't know diagnostically what it could be - it could be just a kinetic activity that your son enjoys. Think about the people who chew gum, click or jitter with a pen and a host of other fidgets. It could be SPD or ASD, as they are both a spectrum. I think you're on the right track consulting a specialist.

As for the teacher - she needs to get a grip. In your shoes, I'd go in and tell her:
"We recognize that the flapping may be distracting and may or may not be an indicator of something neurological and we have an appointment with a neurologist in xx date to pursue that. In the meantime, it helps Sam keep his equilibrium and focus - it's actually productive for him. My concern is that if we're simply asking him to stop it without offering other strategies to meet whatever need this fills, and it's an entrenched pattern, he will be unsuccessful at stopping it, feel anxious, doubt himself AND not have whatever need it fulfills met. Making him self-consious about it could be very harmful and counter-productive."

If she doesn't come onboard, I would ask what resources the school/district can bring in to consult - maybe if she consults a resource teacher she'll gain a better understanding.

GL

Originally Posted by KCMichigan

Ditto this.

She is making the situation worse by making him anxious about it. She should stop addressing it directly to him and take her concerns to you and/or the principal.

But, YES you can be social, verbal and be on the autism spectrum. It is a spectrum- with a wide variation of behaviors. One of my DDs has a PDD_NOS dx. She toe walks, flaps, 'touches' stuff, and has some sensory needs. BUT she is advanced academically,has a fantastic verbal ability, is very very affectionate, and has been/is in a general PreK program that she does just fine. She has toe walked since she could walk and flaps when she is excited/nervous/tired. It is just the way she is. Her teacher has her seated (during circle time) so that her occasional clicking (verbal), or flapping do not distract anyone else. Problem solved and everyone learns and participates.


Obsessions are also developmental.Most 3-6 yr olds have them, but it is the DEGREE and intensity that they look at autism spectrum. A lot of people display autistic behaviors at some time in their lives, but again---the amount, degree, and intensity is the determining factor.

I would go ahead with an evaluation if you want to ease your concerns or get some more information. I have found that school evaluations are helpful in knowing how to academically make school a positive experience. They also give you an outside opinion on how your child is doing for their age.

If you are not comfortable with the eval, you can postpone it or deny it. It is your right as a parent.

Is he academically and socially otherwise on track?

I would absolutely talk to his teacher though. She needs to make sure your son feels supported, not anxious. Especially if it is not interfering with his interactions with other students.

Yes, I would address this immediately with the teacher. What I found when ds was in K, was that they addressed his behavior issues as strictly discipline issues because "we don't consider ADHD until second or third grade," though his teacher did notice his aversion to loud noises.

Ds is a sensory seeker, diagnosed ADHD, and possible Asperger's; ds accepts affection and gives it fairly often--what separates Aspergers from Autism "proper" is normal language and cognitive development (ds is advanced academically). I did not know that until ds' OT evaluation, so I had never considered ds might be on the spectrum; but ds does have problems interacting with peers; he tends to dominate social interactions when he engages at all--this has improved with CBT therapy. If his peer relationships are normal, I think that suggests that it is not Aspergers. You could also look at SPD and OCD
Sensory Processing Disorder Checklist


Ds is taking Conserta for ADHD now (1st grade). His K teacher REALLY wanted ds to sit still in his circle on the carpet. Once I started giving him a magnesium supplement he started sitting on the carpet without bothering anyone, BUT he started flapping his arms.

This year his teacher lets him stand apart unless it is essential for the lesson that he be part of the group.

[Kristine233]

I don't have much to add since the other posters covered it so well, but I want to offer my support. Its hard when teachers don't fully understand the wide range of children and how to handle these things while still allowing a child to express and get the feedback they need and desire.

Kids do everything for a reason, its not random. If a child is sensory seeking (flapping) its to fill a need that they need neurologically in one way or another. Many simply don't understand that and think these behaviors are just annoying and can be stopped without consequence. The act of sensory seeking itself could very well be the thing that helps the child drown out other stimulation around them and enable them to focus on the task at hand, asking them to stop isn't going to do anything other than make them focus on the stopped behavior and increase anxiety. Anxiety is a HUGE issue for many kids like ours, or any child now a days with all the expectations thrown at them.

IMO its best to figure out why a behavior is being acted out before trying to deal with it. Once the need has been identified see if there are other things that can fulfill that same need in a less distracting way. If not, you go with what works for the child. I would never ask a child to stop cold turkey and not replace that self stimulation and NEVER punish a child or scold them for it.

A couple years ago I worked with a preschooler who was extremely smart but very very high energy and a huge sensory seeker. Once he got over stimulated he'd start to bite himself in a form of sensory seeking. Its a way of self focusing. He didn't realize he did it. Mom worked out a code word and hand sign with him to help him become aware of it. She'd say "shark bite" and make a gesture with her hand. He'd see or hear that and would stop and realize he was biting himself. She passed that along to us and we used it in the classroom as well. I recognized he was overstimulated when he did it so I could give him the sign from across the room and he'd stop, then I'd make my way over to him and help him find activities he enjoyed that were calming. He was never scolded and it was never negative, but it helped him be self aware in a way that did not increase anxiety.

This type of thing can be applied to many behaviors, but I think its just important to find the cause first and not neglect that need.

[beachcomber]

The school system is galling in it's absolute demand for conformity at the expense of a child's mental or emotional well-being. I agree with PP's who have said the teacher is the one who needs to be spoken with. What your son is doing is not wrong and does not need to be stopped if it helps him focus at school. Kids are remarkably accepting of other kids given the right environment. His flapping is just part of who he is right now.

I also agree with PPs who have said that autism is a very broad spectrum and that a child can be social, verbal and many other things and still be on the spectrum. That said, your son may or may not be. It will depend on what the experts who assess him determine.

I think you've taken all the right steps for him in consulting with the Stanford neuro. I also think you've done a lot of reading to try and figure out his challenges. You are a caring and devoted mom and I really credit you for your perseverence. I hope you find out soon what's at issue and what steps will best help your son.

[Smithie]

Hi beach! Long time no see!

OP, you've gotten a lot of good suggestions here and I hope that you do follow up with a dev ped to see if there is something going on that merits therapy and/or med and/or an IEP.

What I wanted to add is that there may not be. I'm a flapper. I have a cousin who's a flapper. My mother has a less-noticeable but very similar stim. None of us are ASD or, as far as we can tell, messed up in any way at all beyond the normal human condition.

Your son's teacher may be absolutely right to correct this stim. Flapping is socially unacceptable, and people who CAN stop are going to have a lot easier time of it if they are stopped at age five by adult intervention rather than age 15 by social stigma. My extended family (which presumably includes many former childhood flappers that I don't know about) spent YEARS getting me and my cousin to stop flapping with constant (but gentle) verbal redirection, similar to what you'd do with a child who was grabbing their privates in front of other people.

You say that the teacher is young, so she might need some help with ideas for acceptable redirection of the stim. But don't assume that it's not OK for her to crack down on the flapping (humming, twirling, swaying, tlocking, etc.) in her classroom. 25 kids stimming all at once is not going to work out long-term, and five is a good age for a neurotypical child to begin to self-censor that stuff when they're around other people.