s/o what should 4 yo do if another hits her?

[ElliesMomma]

inm

Edited by ElliesMomma - 5/29/11 at 12:10am

[Llyra]

I taught my DD1 (who's six now) to stand directly facing the other child, and say, "don't do that to me. I don't like it," and then to turn and walk away, and go do something else. I helped her learn to raise her voice a bit, not screaming but just assertive and strong, and to stamp her foot for emphasis. We talked about how getting a little bit "mad" works much better than crying or getting upset.

[BunnySlippers]

I told my dd that if someone was repeatedly hitting her, in her face, or hurting her in any way, that she was to look the person in the eye and very firm and loud say "STOP THAT!"
If the actions do not stop and there is no adult around (which should never be the case hopefully) she is to put her hands on the other person's chest or shoulders and shove them away forcefully, while saying loud and firm "get out of my space!" We have a third step if the bullying continues.

Mostly there is always someone around, but when I first started a daycare, there was one boy larger and a bit older than her that was obnoxious and violent. I wanted to give her tools to use instead of just shrieking, nd I wanted to be sure that should she ever be alone with a child like that, she could keep herself safe.
She used this techinique on the boy (in my line of vison) and it worked. He also settled down eventually, and they became very good friends

[waiting2bemommy]

[QUOTE=ElliesMomma;15996196]
it is a little baffling to me that she has been on the receiving end of hitting a fair amount. like something about her is attracting this treatment? even her 3 yo cousin (a boy) has gone after her, out of the blue, right in front of us, for no apparent reason on DD's part.

[QUOTE]

the other kids know she won't hit back. sure, she can tattle,, but by then thedamage hasalready been done. Don't take that power away from her. teach her how to defend herself. what if there wasn't anadult in the immediate vicinity?

It is one thing to start a fight, and quite another to defend yourself. we teach our ds how to fight. he is not a bully and I have not seen him initiate any kind of physical altercation, but he can hold his own when he gets into scuffles.

In a perfect world kids would all learn peaceful ways to resolve conflicts but thefact is that some kids (and adults) will want to fight. a long as the victim runs away, the aggressor will keep on coming back. fight back and they will leave your dc alone.

[Smithie]

I have never told my elder children (4 and 6) to shove or hit "back" when they encounter a shoving hitting kid. But honestly, that's the reaction I prefer. It lets me intervene with a generalized "stop that!" rather than blaming anyone, eliminates the tattle factor, and sets the appropriate expectation - that bullying J or S is not a good idea, as they will object vigorously and painfully.

I am also glad to see another kid give tit-for-tat when one if MY kids is the bully, and my reaction is exactly the same. I intervene, as the adult, and remind them that violence is not allowed.

[EdnaMarie]

We're from the "don't hit back" school. In Washington State, you can be charged with assault even if you are hitting back. You may only use force to get them off you and get away, not for revenge. At school, both hitters get suspended.

Also, at our playground a lot of people do use the "hit back" thing and frankly... it hasn't worked. They just keep hitting and also they wait, tattle, go back, then hit, and then they're all crying. It's positively idiotic.

My daughter is to not play with that child any more. If the child wants to be friends, they can apologize, but if I see it happening repeatedly, we just leave.

I don't care why the other kid is hitting. There is never a time when you "can" hit another. You might not get punished but... if that is how you are raised, buh-bye.

Frankly, none of us have time for that level of drama in our lives. At two, it's a different story. When they get older, if there is a child that just needs the physical violence, they can indulge on other people that like it. We have better stuff to do. Namely, hang around normal people!

As for family, if that were happening in our family (which, thankfully, it doesn't), I suppose I'd speak to the parents because that's something we need to work out as a family. As for school, I'd speak to the teachers. There is an authority there and they need to enforce the same rules as in society. I would not send my child to a school that allows assault and verbal attacks and I let her know it's not acceptable before putting her in school.

The rule is, you hit, you get a time out. Or go to jail, or give up something you like (toy if you are a kid, $$$ if you are an adult). How much more simple could it be?

[Dukey25]

Sadly I don't have the answer. My DS is 7 and I don't know what to tell him. Right now we tell him to leave the area if someone is teasing him, bugging him, hitting him etc Hitting back for him would be the worst idea because he is small and it would just escalate.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

We're from the "don't hit back" school. In Washington State, you can be charged with assault even if you are hitting back. You may only use force to get them off you and get away, not for revenge. At school, both hitters get suspended.

Also, at our playground a lot of people do use the "hit back" thing and frankly... it hasn't worked. They just keep hitting and also they wait, tattle, go back, then hit, and then they're all crying. It's positively idiotic.

My daughter is to not play with that child any more. If the child wants to be friends, they can apologize, but if I see it happening repeatedly, we just leave.

I don't care why the other kid is hitting. There is never a time when you "can" hit another. You might not get punished but... if that is how you are raised, buh-bye.

Frankly, none of us have time for that level of drama in our lives. At two, it's a different story. When they get older, if there is a child that just needs the physical violence, they can indulge on other people that like it. We have better stuff to do. Namely, hang around normal people!

As for family, if that were happening in our family (which, thankfully, it doesn't), I suppose I'd speak to the parents because that's something we need to work out as a family. As for school, I'd speak to the teachers. There is an authority there and they need to enforce the same rules as in society. I would not send my child to a school that allows assault and verbal attacks and I let her know it's not acceptable before putting her in school.

The rule is, you hit, you get a time out. Or go to jail, or give up something you like (toy if you are a kid, $$$ if you are an adult). How much more simple could it be?

That is the rule many places but to expect your child not to defend himelf is unfair. Adults are not always around to fix everything. A real bully will manipulate situations to where the the child cannot, or will not, ask for help.

And to think that your child will never have an unavoidable encounter with someone who is bound and determined to fight him, is unrealistic. I don't think that because someone is teaching their child to defend themself, they are "not normal." I certainly don't encourage violence. I don't think that it is an excuse or a replacement for learning social graces and learning to resolve coflicts.

But I also know that on our street we have one child who tattles. If someone snatches a toy from her, she runs in and tells mom. If someone gets in her face, she tells. If someone pushes her off her bike, she tells mom. Guess what? No one wants to play with her. Frankly I'm getting tired of her playing with my kid, too, because I just feel like...you're 8 years old. Handle yourself already. If my kid is not treating you right, do what you need to do to make him stop. I'm not going to get mad at her if he is in the wrong, and i've told her this. But she just continues to tattle and it is very, very tiresome.

I mean, if I'm in the street, and someone punches me, I'm not going to run in and tell my DP, "someone punched me!" I'm going to defend myself. And I'm aware of the rules of many police that both participants in an altercation are held responsible. There are also "rules" about vaxing your kids. That doesn't mean they are reasonable, or in the best interest of the individual.

If my child went to school and was attacked and defended himself and got suspended, you better believe we would be on the 6 oclock news complete with our medical records from the ER. I would raise hell. I have worked in the schools and seen it happen, and 9 times out of 10 the victim was eventually allowed back to school. Because it sounds good on paper but when you watch it play out, you realize that you are just reinfocing the roles of victim and bully.

[EdnaMarie]

But I also know that on our street we have one child who tattles.

Mine doesn't tattle, either.

My take is, if you don't want to be here, we'll leave.

Because it sounds good on paper but when you watch it play out, you realize that you are just reinfocing the roles of victim and bully.

I disagree. It's not being a victim to leave the situation.

I mean, if I'm in the street, and someone punches me, I'm not going to run in and tell my DP, "someone punched me!" I'm going to defend myself.

This is fascinating. I would smile. "You just got yourself the lawsuit of the century, buddy, and I know a couple of lawyers. Have fun with that. The next few years are going to be hell for you. HAHAH!"

Maybe because I'm physically small? I'm not going to win in a fight. How am I going to punch back? It would be such a joke. Not even with karate skillz. I have never been bullied (though one girl tried... I told her to get a life. She found it so boring to mess with me--because I just did not feed into it--that she stopped in about three weeks, moved on to another girl who did try to stand up, fight back, etc. etc. and that lasted FOREVER with the freaking tit-for-tat... ugh. What a useless drama).

It's pretty simple. Use your words. If the other person can't, exclude them from the play. The. End.

We do this in adult life as well, at least, in my area! People who regularly get into fights, even in "self defence" (funny how some people are always needing to use their self-defense skills and so many others... manage to use words and social power to fend it off), end up in criminal justice.

And to think that your child will never have an unavoidable encounter with someone who is bound and determined to fight him, is unrealistic

.

If they're cornering you, scream. If they hit AND are cornering you, go ahead and try to defend yourself, but really, if you end up in that situation, we're changing schools.

We don't join societies that have "hit and kick and use physical violence to defend yourself because we have no defensible social contract and no standards of civilized behavior enforced here" as a rule, implicit or explicit.

Where are you ladies from? Honestly, I do know people that hit back and they are all from the poorest, most pitiful backwater counties in places with ridiculous crime rates. I suppose if I were there, I'd have to live in the whole "law of the jungle" attitude.

Luckily I do not. I have the resources and the skills to leave messed up social circles, and I intend to do so whenever necessary.

I don't want a scar over my right eyebrow because of some stupid high-school brawl!

[EdnaMarie]

And yes, before you ask... why, I *do* think a crime rate of over 8 per 100,000 is disgusting and messed up. Totally. Look up your state's rate and the nearest major city's crime rate and tell me... is it over six or seven?

Then you're living in one of the most dangerous places in the "rich world", far more dangerous than most people in the US and nearly 10 times higher than most of Europe.

And yes, that is messed up. I know most people have no choice in the matter, but fix society, don't keep engaging in this horrid tit-for-tat eye-for-an-eye violence that destroys the social fabric.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

Where are you ladies from? Honestly, I do know people that hit back and they are all from the poorest, most pitiful backwater counties in places with ridiculous crime rates. I suppose if I were there, I'd have to live in the whole "law of the jungle" attitude.

Luckily I do not. I have the resources and the skills to leave messed up social circles, and I intend to do so whenever necessary.

I don't want a scar over my right eyebrow because of some stupid high-school brawl!

My family is from Brooklyn and I was raised in Virginia. None of us are from the "backwoods" and my city is a tourist city & does not have exceedingly high crime rates, but I still went to the roughest school in the city and was threatened daily because of my looks and the way I carried myself (trying to get good grades and stay out of trouble.) I carried a blade to school every day of my junior year. I was sexually assaulted at least twice that I can remember. I'm glad you hae the "resources and skills" to leave a messed up situation, but not all of us have that advantage. Not everyone can just change their child's school, buy a new house, or quit their job on a whim.

Please try to keep in mind what you said--"luckily." You are lucky. If someone hit me in my neighborhood and I threatened to sue them or call the police I can assure you I would not be safe to sleep in my house that night.

You sound kind of condescending, like those of us who teach our kids to defend ourselves are too ignorant or something to know better. Have you ever heard the saying "there but for the grace of god go I"?

I don't think anyone is advocating for violence. What I *am* advocating for is giving my child the tools to deal with any situation. If he is in an environment where the situation can be settled with words, that is wonderful. But if he is not, I want him to feel empowered, not helpless. It is HIS body; if someone is hurting him, he has EVERY RIGHT to defend himself. If that person gets hurt as a result, that's on them for initiating it. And I bet you next time they are spoling for a fight they won't go to him looking for one.

Oh and I'm not sure what you think size has to do with anything....I am 5'1" and 100 lb soaking wet and I have fought both girls in highschool and defended myself against my abusive ex who has 80 lbs on me and nearly a foot taller. Once he almost cracked my collarbone when he was beating me. If I hadn't fought back I know without a doubt that I would be dead. Or perhaps I should have just threatened him with a lawsuit like you suggested while he continued to wile out on me.

[rlynn08]

i do get what you are saying. yes in a situation where self defense is the only option i want my child to know that of course she can fight back but there is a huge difference between being hit or pushed in frustration by a friend or playmate and being beaten and assaulted. when my daughter is 4 i wont be telling her to hit another child back if they hit her as if thats the general rule around our household. because i feel that 4 is awfully young to expect her to really work it out whether a given situation warrants retaliation or not. fighting back in my opinion should be a last resort. id much rather she come to me about it. then we can work it out together if this is something she can handle on her own (non violently) the next time or if she needs me to step in and help. i want my daughter to be able to stand up for herself but standing up for yourself doesnt always mean hitting and fighting back with violence.

the OP said her daughter has been hit a fair amount at preschool. if this were my daughter, id ask for the details first. oh yeah...so and so hit you, what was going on, why do you think so and so did that, how did it make you feel. then id go to school and have a talk with the teachers. id ask if my daughter is really being hit as much as she claims to be (children do not have the most accurate perception sometimes; i worked with kids and ive seen it with them and my own child), id ask the teachers for their advice on how to stop the hitting and we'd go from there. in general, right now i teach my 2.5 year old to say loudly, "dont hit me. i dont like it" and then to walk away. but honestly while yes, children should know not to hit at 4, as long as they arent wailing on the other children, i wouldnt be concerned that this is the case of clear bullying. it sounds like they might just need more supervision and tools for how to handle frustration and anger. 4 is still really young. its barely out of the toddler stage.

[EdnaMarie]

Have you ever heard the saying "there but for the grace of god go I"?

I think my unwillingness to tolerate drama and my sense of who's going to create it does make a difference.

I'm not saying that my kids can avoid all drama.

I am saying that unless life or limb is in danger, WALK AWAY.

If you cannot walk away, yes, defend yourself, by all means. But do not go tit-for-tat hoping to somehow make the bully recognize that "they can't mess with you" or "violence doesn't work". It has been shown again and again that this DOES NOT WORK. First, because you might lose. Second, because they are messed up in the first place and probably thrive on that violence (sadly). Third, because it puts you in a compromising position.

What I *am* advocating for is giving my child the tools to deal with any situation. If he is in an environment where the situation can be settled with words, that is wonderful. But if he is not, I want him to feel empowered, not helpless. It is HIS body; if someone is hurting him, he has EVERY RIGHT to defend himself. If that person gets hurt as a result, that's on them for initiating it. And I bet you next time they are spoling for a fight they won't go to him looking for one.

My tools for dealing with violence include words, ostracization, and civil recourse.

Not an eye for an eye. Self-defense is fine but we're talking about hits and shoves here.

Violence does not "teach people a lesson", especially not the lesson, "don't mess with others." Usually they come from a messed up background in the first place and getting the poop beat out of them is not going to suddenly make them re-think violence.

There's a reason it's always the same people in the principal's office... they don't know how to cope without violence.

If someone hits my kid, and doesn't get suspended or issue a formal apology with parents, staff, etc. present, and the school doesn't take it seriously, my kid's not going to get it again, either.

She'll be in a school where they have real rules. I know you think I'm naive. I've seen fights. I've had people try to pick fights. Aloof, non-violent, firm and assertive have ALWAYS worked. They move on to someone that gives them a reaction. Because that's what they want.

Or perhaps I should have just threatened him with a lawsuit like you suggested while he continued to wile out on me.

I'm not saying, if someone's trying to kill you, walk away. Defend, then LEAVE. How does a child pushing on the playground compare to spousal abuse and attempted murder?

Is it easy? No! But for crying out loud, don't pretend like relying on your own physical prowess is going to get you through life. He might have killed you ANYWAY.

Stay away from drama. You have been beat up how many times? Yes, I'm lucky, but I dare to say that the coping mechanism of "recognize drama, and get the hell out of there, it's nothing but trouble and you just get messed up" is not a bad one.

You can avoid a great deal of drama in life by staying away from messed up people, you really can. It's not 100% up to us, but if you get into that many fights, than your tactic of meeting it head-on is really obviously not working for you!

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/brooklyn/crime/

Jesus. I appreciate that you couldn't really leave Brooklyn, and again, if I were raising my kid in a place like that, I might re-think my attitude towards self-defense (or consider living out of a van in Bismark or Spokane or SOMEPLACE).

Consider the fact that your kids are in one of the safer states in the Union. They have and enforce a CIVIL contract in Virginia. Your kids need to know first and foremost that appealing to a higher authority and strengthening the civil contract for violent disputes is something they can rely on! Not, "Nobody's gonna help you so you gotta defend yourself with your fists."

That kind of thinking breeds more violence, which in turn breeds even more violence. Again, if you're being attacked for life or limb, by all means, defend yourself, but for heaven's sake let's not all start pushing back.

the OP said her daughter has been hit a fair amount at preschool. if this were my daughter, id ask for the details first. oh yeah...so and so hit you, what was going on, why do you think so and so did that, how did it make you feel. then id go to school and have a talk with the teachers. id ask if my daughter is really being hit as much as she claims to be (children do not have the most accurate perception sometimes; i worked with kids and ive seen it with them and my own child), id ask the teachers for their advice on how to stop the hitting and we'd go from there.

I completely agree with this. My daughter was bit once by a friend in an argument. Neither child speaks the language of the pre-school so both can get intensely frustrated. There was no hitting back, the girl got a cooling-off and time-out, and her mother was informed and spoke to her. They are still friends and I'm okay with that, because they are quite young. I would never dream of telling my daughter to bite back rather than appealing to her pre-school teachers! What a mess that would be.


I am sorry about your ex. I hope you did sue his a** off after you got out of there, and that you got out right away.

[Smithie]

"Your kids need to know first and foremost that appealing to a higher authority and strengthening the civil contract for violent disputes is something they can rely on!"

The thing is, I don't believe that's true. My own life experience has demonstrated to me that situations constantly occur where appealing to an outside authority is fruitless. When I or DH are around, then yes, the kids can appeal to higher authority with 100% confidence every time. But at school (if they ever go?) On a sports team? On a subway? In a public park? Apparently the world is full of authority figures who can't or won't step in when somebody is throwing rocks. Which leaves fleeing or standing your ground, and there are times when the former is best and times when the latter is best.

I'm actually a huge believer in anti-bullying campaigns in schools, and I hope that the climate around these social issues will change. But I'm not moving to Sweden meanwhile, in an attempt to avoid any chance of a situation in which someone in my family will feel called upon to throw a punch in self-defense or sibling-defense.

[EdnaMarie]

someone in my family will feel called upon to throw a punch in self-defense or sibling-defense.

There are pre-schoolers threatening your children's life and limb?

My own life experience has demonstrated to me that situations constantly occur where appealing to an outside authority is fruitless.

Okay. I'm sorry. That must really suck. I have a lot of luck appealing to authority. I have no idea why. I realize that there are times when physical defense is necessary, but again... there are also ways to avoid bullies and jerks. Please don't think I'm blaming the victims here, because I'm not. Suggesting that ANY thing other than a total change in social mores is going to placate a bully, in my opinion, is going to fall short of what one or another child needs to do.

Which leaves fleeing or standing your ground, and there are times when the former is best and times when the latter is best.

When is it best to get rocks thrown at you and throw rocks at other people? To get involved in a rock fight or wrestling match?

How is that EVER better than finding a better place to play?

What does it achieve? You win, you get the leaf pile, a bloody nose, an enemy, and a black eye? But you didn't have to leave the park, and the bully has one more bruise than you?

HOW is that useful to anybody?

On a sports team, there are referees. You don't just beat the stuff out of the other team.

[waiting2bemommy]

[QUOTE=EdnaMarie;16003205]

When is it best to get rocks thrown at you and throw rocks at other people? To get involved in a rock fight or wrestling match?

How is that EVER better than finding a better place to play?

What does it achieve? You win, you get the leaf pile, a bloody nose, an enemy, and a black eye? But you didn't have to leave the park, and the bully has one more bruise than you?

HOW is that useful to anybody?

QUOTE]

Well, fpor starters, if I want to play at the park, or walk my dog there, and someone is throwing rocks, why should I leave when I'm not doign anything wrong That "walking away to avoid physical violence" is actually reinforcing to the bully that his behavior brigns about the desired consequence. If I get fed up enough and the bully loses and has to leave the park, and I can then stay and enjoy walking my dog or playing in peace, then yes I consider taht a success.

And you would be surprised because I am NOT a confrontational person IRL. I really don't go up to people and just start drama. I hate drama....it is one of the reasons I don't have a lot of female friends, because drama exhausts me. But by golly if someone challenges me, they have picked the wrong person because I am not going to back down without a very good reason. As an adult one of those very good reasons is when I know that retaliating will a) model something I don't want to model in front of my kids, or b) result in a worse consequence for me (for example, if someone shoves me in line at a movie or club, I am more likely to give up the spot rather than start a brawl that will end up with me in jail. I'm not stupid.)

I guess it comes form being raised by someone who never ever stood up for herself and was basically a patsy, always "turning the other cheek" and "walking away because it just isn't worth it" rather than putting a stop to inappropriate situations.

fwiw outside of my experiences with my ex I have not been in a real fight sicne I was 18 or 19. I really don't run around beating people up! But i'm not afraid to stand up for myself, and I agree with smithie that telling an authority figure is not always a legitimate option in a moment of crisis.

If my ds is at school and someone hits him, he knows to tell the teacher. But if he is in the neighborhood running around with the other kids, I dont' expect him to come traipsing home to tell me about every minor scrape. I suppose there is a bit of the "jungle" mentality..... I guess it really is a background thing because we see that as important to his development aht he learn to handle himself.

[Latte Mama]

If my ds is at school and someone hits him, he knows to tell the teacher. But if he is in the neighborhood running around with the other kids, I dont' expect him to come traipsing home to tell me about every minor scrape. I suppose there is a bit of the "jungle" mentality..... I guess it really is a background thing because we see that as important to his development aht he learn to handle himself.

Ok I have to ask... Your TWO yr. old runs around the neighborhood? If I hadn't read your siggy, I would have thought you were talking about maybe an 8- 10 yr. old!

[ErinYay]

I think there's a big difference between teaching a 8-9-year-old or older kid self-defense, and encouraging a preschooler to hit back. Older kids can easily learn to use their skills only when needed, but the under-6 crowd tends to lack the perspective and self-control to hit back only when truly needed.

[GoBecGo]

A 4yo should say loudly "DO NOT HIT ME!" and then alert a nearby adult. A 4yo should pretty much ALWAYS have a nearby adult, because they are 4 and need that level of input/support.

An older kid...it gets more complicated. I have stood up to bullies my whole life (i am tall and gentle, which is the target zone apparently...). But i have almost never hit them. I once walked the length of a corridor with another girl LITERALLY clinging to me, trying to wrestle me down (i just kept walking). Eventually i turned my head and said "you're like a dog on heat" and she let go. We ended up friends. I did avoid the people who i knew would escalate it with a blade or get older more violent relatives involved. But on the whole i talked my way out of things. I committed 2 acts of violence during my teens, once a boy feigned a "trip" to "fall" and grab my (very large) breasts and i knee'd him in the crotch, not very hard, not injuriously, just enough to take the wind out of his sails, and hissed "i will CASTRATE you next time". The other time i was being mocked for my (flowery) doc marten boots. A boy teased me every. single. day. for about 18months. One day he pinned me against a wall and spat at my face and i kicked him as hard as a could with my flowery right boot. But he had me pinned, i could NOT get away. I was 15 and 16 respectively. I never hit anyone but my brother the rest of my whole childhood. And he was a whole other story.

[Petie1104]

OK, let's remember we are talking about children here, not adults, so talking does not always work. I only condone defending oneself when all other avenues are closed. If you are being continuously bullied by the same person, if the teachers have failed to help, and if you are in a situation where you cannot get away.

I remember being 9 and on the school bus where the driver assigned us seats according to grade and last name. I had to sit next to Jimmy. Jimmy spent every single day punching me repeatedly. I went home with bruises on a regular basis. I told the driver day after day until he punished me for tattling. My parents talked to the driver who told them that I was exaggerating and that he had never seen me get punched. My brother told the driver that part of his job was to stop this from happening. Finally, after weeks of abuse, my brother got kicked off the bus because he got out of his seat, came up to Jimmy, snatched him up by his shirt and told him to keep his hands off of me. I had gone through every available avenue and nothing worked, I was too mild and weak to defend myself so my brother had to rescue me. When we got home, he was ticked off that I got him kicked off the bus because he had to step in.

So what do you tell your child to do when all other options fail? Really, talking to a 9 yr. old is sometimes like talking to a wall, it doesn't work. In cases like this, where the teachers are apathetic, the parents aren't getting anywhere because of a school that won't admit anything,and a bully that won't quit, sometimes the only option to stop the abuse is to defend youself.