Gifted, Spirited or Something Else?

[Sadie's Mom]

We are at our wits end with our 2 y.o. son- hoping for some advice on how to keep our sanity!

DS has been a textbook spirited child from the day he was born: intense, persistent, sensitive, prone to tantrums. We also have reason to believe he could be gifted. By 18 mo, he had a vocab of several hundred (a thousand?) words- we stopped counting. He probably knew 50+ animal names alone. Knew all letters, numbers, colors and shapes and was starting to speak in full sentences. He just turned 2, and is starting to recognize words, spell his name, has portions of several books memorized, recites songs, etc. He has an amazing memory, and will literally bring up something we haven’t talked about in months. He remembers who gave him just about every book and toy he owns. He is amazingly perceptive for his age, for example- commenting on a particularly pretty sunset while driving home one evening or recognizing an abstract turtle shape in a tile floor in the airport (it took me 10 seconds of staring at the floor to figure out what he was talking about- but he “got” it immediately). He doesn’t call something a “bird”- it’s a cardinal, or a gold finch, or a woodpecker. He has an unquenchable desire to learn- we don’t push him- but he is constantly asking for more and more. I am in awe of him at times, and at other times I almost feel sorry for him because he has such a hard time relaxing.

My concern lies in the fact that he also has a lot of difficult behaviors. We are having a hard time differentiating between “spirited/gifted behavior” and “red flag behavior”. They tend to come out a lot more at home (as opposed to his daycare classroom) and they do seem worse first thing in the morning and when he is tired. My primary concern are his obsessions. I know toddler obsessions can be normal, but these seem a little extreme. He lives by a lot of self-imposed “rules”. He lines up his toy animals and if one animal is “off” even an inch he’ll throw a fit until it’s fixed. Books for bed have to be stacked in a specific order and if you deviate from that he goes nuts. Animals have to be laid down before bed with heads facing the window with a cloth diaper on top (their “blanket”). If we are listening to a CD in the car, he wants to know what number each song is (because at home on his little CD player he can see the number) and he can’t relax until I tell him. Recently we read a “lift a flap” book. 10 minutes later, he suddenly got very tense and cried for the lift a flap book over and over again. I finally gave it to him and he had to go back to a page where he forgot to lift one of the flaps. After he lifted it he was fine and stopped crying. He has also started to do this thing where he occasionally twists his wrist repetitively- it’s almost like a stress relief or something. He’s also very emotional- he will cry off and on for days after we have family members visiting because he says he misses them and wants them back- he takes everything so hard :-(

I don’t know where to turn- this is our first child and there certainly wasn't a chapter about this in our baby book- we just know that we’ve never met another kid like this in our lives. I guess I’m just hoping to hear from other moms who have similar children, because I don’t come across them in my day to day. I really feel like my husband and I need more support/parenting advice but I’m not sure of the best avenue. Counseling for us? Or do we just ride it out and wait (hope!) for it to get better with age?

[loraxc]

I'm replying because I feel bad that you haven't heard from anyone! I think your son does sound gifted; much of your first paragraph sounds familiar to me. Also, many gifted children are emotionally intense and demanding. However, with total acknowledgement that I do not know your child, it does sound like he is experiencing a great deal of frustration and perhaps anxiety. It is very possible for a child to be gifted and to have some other exceptionalities. As I say, I certainly can't tell one way or the other, but I agree that there may be some red flags there. My child did not have that exact kind of issue, but she was concerning in other ways, so I know what it's like to worry over an intense and different child. I would suggest perhaps speaking to your pediatrician? There are also some great books out there...I have this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-D.../dp/0910707642

[crunchy_mommy]

This makes me think of OCD.

A lot of your first paragraph reminds me a of my 20mo (in fact, I was thinking, "hey did I write this?" lol) but he doesn't seem to have *too much* of the obsessions you mentioned (though there are definitely some).

I think most toddlers display OCD traits or autistic traits to some extent, but your DS sounds like he is experiencing this a little more intensely... He could just be very anxious & his 'gifted' tendencies amplify the anxiety... It couldn't hurt to mention it to a health care professional though, perhaps this warrants further evaluation?

[mommyfied]

Originally Posted by Sadie's Mom

recognizing an abstract turtle shape in a tile floor in the airport (it took me 10 seconds of staring at the floor to figure out what he was talking about- but he “got” it immediately).

He lines up his toy animals and if one animal is “off” even an inch he’ll throw a fit until it’s fixed. Books for bed have to be stacked in a specific order and if you deviate from that he goes nuts. Animals have to be laid down before bed with heads facing the window with a cloth diaper on top (their “blanket”).

I had to laugh because my DD does these exact things. She was pointing out diamonds in upholstery at 19 mo and barking at the woodwork at 20 mo because the knot looked like a dog. Last year she kept talking about this bunny rabbit she saw on the "Texas Roadhouse" logo. It's actually an outline of the state of TX wearing a cowboy hat. I had trouble seeing it and no one else could see it until I pointed out all the body parts.

She's also a little prone to the OCD tendencies. The part I quoted are things she does exactly!! The book thing - there are always a certain number of books too. She has had her animals lined up on the floor for months and if we ever try to help put them to bed she goes crazy because they all have to be in a certain spot with a certain blanket over them.

I do think the giftedness can amplify those behaviors since in your case you're looking at the mind of a 4-6 (or more) year old in a 2 year old body. For us, DH has some OCD tendencies too so it's probably just how her mind works. She can be very emotional and intense. We just try to help her learn how to deal with things appropriately. We've been doing this basically from the start of the temper tantrum stage since she understood us well. I give her examples of what she can do instead of throwing a fit. Ask for help, slow down, take a deep breath, etc. It helps to acknowledge why she's upset. I know you are upset because _____. (Sometimes that's all it takes.) Then I reassure her everything is okay. Then explain here's how we deal with that. If she's too upset, I tell her I will talk to her when she calms down or I'll be able to listen when she is talking to me in a normal voice like I'm using right now. DD recently turned 4 and for the past several months I've been really impressed with her ability to identify and express her feelings. She still throws fits, but she can stop in the midst of it and tell me her feelings are hurt and why. I can use the same approach of helping her think through solutions and she recovers more quickly than she used to.

I haven't figured out how to deal with the OCD stuff yet. I think she'll always be particular about things. When possible we prepare her for changes so she can work it out in her mind first. DH has always been good at explaining things to her in advance (he probably understands how it is). For instance, if we have relatives visiting he tells her what to expect. When they are coming, how long they will be here, what we will do, etc. WAY more details than I ever needed or would think to give. Then before they leave he makes sure she understands when they are leaving, that they won't be coming back for a long time, etc. She handles even stressful situations amazingly well if she's been able to think it out.

[Bird Girl]

Hi Sadie, welcome! I would say that your son definitely sounds gifted, and emotionally intense. But I wouldn't say that the things you describe seem spectrum-y to me. For example, his lining up of the animals, and careful covering them with a blanket sounds maybe a little anxious, but purposeful and related to his imaginings about them (ie that they are going to sleep.) In my experience, when autistic kids insist that something in their environment be "just so," that tends to relate to something outside an imaginary purpose--for example, that the shine from the toy cars form a complete circle, or some such. So while lining up toys often appears on autistic behavior watch lists, it doesn't sound like what your son is doing is particularly autistic.

Two can be a hard age for someone who has so much intellectual awareness and so little maturity to provide perspective. You might ask your pediatrician about anxiety issues in young children if you think that might lead to some helpful tools. Make sure you're taking time for yourself and your DH to rest and recharge as well--our kids are great at sucking every last bit of our energy for themselves!

[joensally]

I wouldn't pathologize it too much . I think the word intensity is a good way to describe this.

My kids did a lot of those types of things at 2. DS still mourns family leaving, and he's 8! Being particular about things can be a sign of perfectionism, or needing to gain control when feeling out of control, or another type of puzzling (ordering, sorting etc). Play and "reality" are pretty fluid for young kids. Needing stuff made right might be part of his makeup, or part of being 2. Reconciling how things "should be" and actually are can be really hard. Two year olds are increasingly exploring their world and identifying themselves as separate from their parents - that's tough stuff and can produce reactive clinginess and controlling behaviour. Another thought is that some people really like rituals, and his ritual with the stuffies is pretty sweet and caring.

Have you tested for allergies? This is a really important rule out.

I would highly recommend the Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis book by Webb, particularly the chapter on ASD. There are overlaps among ASD, giftedness, ADHD, anxiety, ODD, OCD, SPD. It's very hard to discern what's what sometimes, and it's easy to worry over one or another possible diagnosis. Two is very young and developmental norms are highly variable.

In terms of specific strategies, first off empathy and patience. IME, rolling with it and offering an alternative calming strategy lead to a reduction/elimination of the problematic behaviour. So, meet the need he's expressing and concurrently teach him a breathing strategy to self-calm. Hopefully the breathing strategy will replace the stuck thinking/micro-managing behaviour. When he's melting down, tell him "That's so frustrating! Let's find your page and then we'll go to the park when you're done reading." Identify the emotion, let him feel the activity is complete, then switch gears positively. Over time, he'll be able to better manage his intensity by naming the emotion and having strategies to get past stuck thinking/feeling.

Raising Your Spirited Child is a good book, as is Sleepless in America - you mention this is worse when he's tired. I have also found sensory strategies have worked well - your son may really like heavy work. When he's winding up, try having him crab walk across the room, or make the room bigger by pushing against the walls and see if that calms him down.

I have two very intense, quirky, emotional, sensitive kids who used to do what you describe and often drove (drive!) us batty with their perfectionism, need for things to be just so and peculiarities. I actually really enjoy them. As for diagnoses, one is gifted and has SPD, one is gifted and has some mild anxiety.

[Roar]

Much of this sounds very familiar. Yes, I'd say gifted. Yes, I'd say intense. To the rest, only time will tell. There are many highly gifted kids who are very intense two year olds. What I think we hear about more often are kids who direct their upset at parents - do it my way, give me that, I will do it the way I want to do it. It sounds like your son is directing more of his intensity toward trying to use his own abilities to control his environment by lining stuff up and keeping track of what is in his environment.

We saw quite a bit of that kind of behavior and also a related behavior where the child was bound and determined to do something impossible such as stack up objects not designed for stacking. He's work on it, cry, work on it, cry, struggle, cry, work on it. Frankly it was pretty irritating to be around because it was like he was putting himself in an impossible position where he was trying to defy the lines of time and space and then being upset when it wouldn't work.

Fast forward to the teen years. He's not at all OCD. Not a bit. He is an anxious person though. He is still very driven and persistent in ways that are almost entirely positive. That intensity still isn't directed at other people. He continues to have a very clear sense of drive for what he wants to accomplish and fortunately now as an older person he has more appropriate outlets for that energy - schoolwork, writing, music, chess. He remains highly self motivated and wakes up each day with a mission of what he wants to accomplish. There are some traits that work really well in life that are so hard when a child is young.

I agree with joensally's advice to offer empathy and teach words for his emotions and help give him a calming strategy and emphasize ending on a positive note. Learning to be aware of upset and move on is really helpful.

Do you have a very strong routine at your house? I ask because he seems to have less trouble at daycare and sometimes that happens because there is more routine there. If you don't already have it I'd suggest working with him to make a routine chart. Draw pictures of the steps of the bedtime routine and let him paste them on a chart. This may help channel his desire for predictability and routine into something more functional and easier to deal with.

Must run, more later.

[Roar]

Another thing that was really helpful for us was getting the point where the child would take a break. You can set up a cozy break spot - bean bag, stuffed animals, books, gentle calming activities. The goal is not for it to be a punitive time out, but instead that he eventually catch himself getting upset and realize he can take a break for it, calm down and come back to what he's doing (or move on.)

My final thought is to wonder if he is calmer when he gets more intellectually activity or engagement. One reason why many intense kids do better when they get older is because they can get intellectual stimulation and wind down at the same time while reading. I'm wondering if it may help sometimes to redirect him to an activity that engages his mind more constructively.

[loraxc]

There are many highly gifted kids who are very intense two year olds. What I think we hear about more often are kids who direct their upset at parents - do it my way, give me that, I will do it the way I want to do it. It sounds like your son is directing more of his intensity toward trying to use his own abilities to control his environment by lining stuff up and keeping track of what is in his environment.

This is such an interesting thought! Yes, that could be, I bet.

He continues to have a very clear sense of drive for what he wants to accomplish and fortunately now as an older person he has more appropriate outlets for that energy - schoolwork, writing, music, chess. He remains highly self motivated and wakes up each day with a mission of what he wants to accomplish. There are some traits that work really well in life that are so hard when a child is young.

Yes--as my DD gets older and there is more of a place to "put" that incredible drive and intensity, things are improving. It is a fanastic thing to have, that drive. I actually rather envy it. It's very interesting here, because my younger son is also obviously bright but does not possess this same intensity. It makes him much, much easier to parent!

[RiverTam]

I would talk to my pediatrician, and explain what is going on, and ask if he needs further assessment.

There are some red flags, there, but I don't know if it's enough to worry about. Your pediatrician knows your child, and can put it in context more than a Random Internet Stranger.

Talking with my pediatrician usually takes a lot of weight off my mind.

[Sadie's Mom]

These are very helpful thoughts and suggestions. I don't have this kind of community of support in the "real world" and it helps me so much to "talk it out" with other moms in similar situations. When I try to talk with my friends, I feel like they just don't "get it", just like I don't understand some of the challenges in their life that I haven't been thru myself. So thank you, thank you to everyone who responded.

I did talk to my pediatrician about this at his last appointment. She told me that obsessions and some level of anxiety were normal/expected for this age and that the real concern lies when they interfere with everyday life. I guess that is where I have a hard time differentiating sometimes! For now I don't feel like an evaluation is in order- it is something that we will need to watch over the next few months as DS continues to evolve. I do think that perhaps DH and I could benefit from a few counseling sessions now, though.

I love these suggestions. And to hear about the experiences of moms of older kids is great. I have thought about doing the "routine chart" before- I think that could help. I already try to map out his day for him by talking about it and this does seem to lessen his anxiety. But something more visual sounds like a good complement to it. We also do the "use your words", "ask for help", etc to try to lessen the intensity of the situation before it erupts- I've been impressed with how well my DH does this. I walked in yesterday and could hear him saying "You are feeling tired and this must be frustrating to you. Let's read a few books quietly and then come back to this later". My DS responded really well to this (he doesn't always and wants to finish what he started- but this time it worked!). And the "pushing the walls" thing is great- I will try that. Right now we have a big pillow that I tell him he can squeeze when he is feeling overwhelmed.

Allergies an interesting thought- I am going to start a food diary and see if I can come up with any connections there as a first step. He's a healthy eater at home and the quality of food at daycare is good (no processed foods, they grow a lot of what they eat) but he does eat dairy and wheat (two I kind of wonder about, since he was sensitive to them in the early months when we EBF).

I have the "raising your spirited child" book and will check out some of the other suggestions.

Thanks again everyone!

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by Sadie's Mom

I did talk to my pediatrician about this at his last appointment. She told me that obsessions and some level of anxiety were normal/expected for this age and that the real concern lies when they interfere with everyday life. I guess that is where I have a hard time differentiating sometimes!

Yeah this is a tough thing to discern with toddlers since it seems like EVERYTHING they do interferes with daily life!!!

Is he able to enjoy other things beyond his obsessions? Are you able to do fun things with him or is so much of the day revolving around his rituals that there simply isn't time for anything else? Do the obsessions cause him distress, or does he enjoy partaking in them? Is his anxiety so severe that he isn't able to do typical toddler activities? Those answers would be where I'd start when evaluating how much it interferes with everyday life...

I'm glad you're considering a few counseling sessions. I grew up with very severe anxiety (and some OCD tendencies) and I really wish someone had stepped in & given me some coping techniques early on, it sure would have save me years of misery, hospitalizations, etc.

[ellemenope]

OP-I hope you are still around to read this. I just came across your post and not only was I a bit surprised by how similar our kids are, I can totally relate to your feelings and concerns, and I really want you to know that.

DD is 28 months. I could have written your first paragraph myself. especially the part about finding abstract objects in everyday things.

As far as your second paragraph. We have different concerns, but yeah, we have concerns. The only thing that sounds similar is DD's need and affinity for rules.

Here is a quote from another post outlining her possible signs of ASD

-seems to relish memorizing words, learning new classifications
-learns quickly and effortlessly or not at all
-is extremely picky, eats very little
-will not eat fruit
-chews and spits out 90% meat, veggies
-picks apart food meant to go together, doesn't like mixed food
-hums while she eats
-hates brushing hair/teeth, having a damp sleeve
-cannot stand having a stuffed nose or slight sniffle
-is extremely difficult to get to fall asleep
-gets overstimulated in social situations easily and shuts down, gets anxious
-is hypersensitive to correction
-loves rules, corrects others
-is prone to emotional meltdowns, exhibits guilt and shame
-uses a lot of scripting
-is very litteral
-does not sound like her age at all
-has average to below average fine motor skills which causes huge frustrations
-gets very distracted/obsessive by little things out in the world (gum on pavement)

But she...

-is not rigid
-uses advanced syntax, large vocab, and speaks fast and fluent
-is super-coordinated, cautious
-has a huge imagination
-never tantrums, is easily reasoned with
-is very affectionate, makes great eye contact, empathetic to an extreme
-is almost off the curve, but she has a curve going for her. She's growing

We take it week by week. This past week has been hard. We have not had any ASD red flags, but she is just so darn different, so darn hypersensitive to our emotions and she is acting out because of this. We are stressed because of an upcoming move, and she is being extra quirky as a response.

But, she is also just blossoming intelectually. She has made a couple of mental leaps this week, and I am so proud of her. And, some of these quirks might be attributed to her talking and thinking like a 4-year old, and us thinking she should act like one all the time. I really just want a reality check. I want to know what is normal.

Tonight, DD tried to pick up the 8 pack of paper towells and commented, "I can't pick this up because it is too cumbersome for me." That is probably not normal. I don't know.

This is a great forum for us. I personaly invite you to read more and post. Welcome.