epigenetics and methylation

[tanyalynn]

This is a really interesting article on how both mom's and dad's current health can change how our genes are expressed in our kids-at least in rats, they've shown that genetic switches can change in sperm and eggs during the parents lifetimes and then those changes are passed on to the kids, and can even be passed on to the grandkids.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/30/h...-and-eggs.html

I haven't tracked down the original study yet, don't know if it's above my head or not.

A couple quotes, let's see if I can keep them short...

the life experiences of grandparents and even great-grandparents alter their eggs and sperm so indelibly that the change is passed on to their children, grandchildren, and beyond.

... 27 words

Other labs, too, are finding that experiences—everything from a lab animal being exposed to a toxic chemical to a person smoking, being malnourished in childhood, or overeating—leaves an imprint on eggs or sperm, an imprint so tenacious that it affects not only those individuals’ children but their grandchildren as well.

... 50 words

And the part I didn't quote--if I understand it right, methyl groups are turning the switches on and off. Being low on methyl groups is a huge deal. We use methyl groups when we run into heavy metals, when we deal with all sorts of environmental chemicals like BPA, if we're low on folate or B12 we'd be low in methyl groups. I had to look it up--we also get rid of the epinephrine (adrenaline) our bodies make by attaching a methyl group--if I'm understanding this right, that's a pretty direct way that long-term stresses (things we _feel_ stressed about) reduce the number of methyl groups available for other uses. I'm sure our bodies have some ability to deal with some stresses--lots of things have found humans tasty over the eons--but I know I've had times when I dealt with stress poorly and I _felt_ extremely stressed.

Isn't this really, really significant for the health of future generations? They speculate that part of the increase in obesity and other health issues is an increased propensity due to parents' health before conception.

I mean--if we can turn switches on and off throughout our lives, then our kids should be able to as well, and I'm certainly hoping that's the case for my kids--but given the average diet out there and the average number of chemicals in most homes, overall that seems problematic at a population level.

So... I'm not sure I'm certain of how to get this right before pregnancy--seems like the time before conception is pretty important. Avoiding nasty environmental stuff and eating well seem important, as always. I've seen enough changes in my own health that correspond to how I'm coping with stress that that seems important too.

I've read that a few traditional health systems, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine come to mind, consider the mental health and lifestyle of the mom-to-be quite important. I haven't looked into the specific recommendations of either in depth.

Seems like adopting a regular prayer or meditation habit would be a good thing? I mean, besides its benefits to the one actually praying/meditating.

[JaneS]

as you know, I love reading about epigenetics.

This is one of the studies quoted:

Chronic high-fat diet in fathers programs β-cell dysfunction in female rat offspring
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture09491.html

Chronic HFD consumption in Sprague–Dawley fathers induced increased body weight, adiposity, impaired glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. Relative to controls, their female offspring had an early onset of impaired insulin secretion and glucose tolerance that worsened with time, and normal adiposity.

I wish I could find out the specific fat they fed. I'm guessing it's not healthy saturated fat from unaltered coconut oil or grass fed animals.

This study showing negative effects of a high fat diet fed to rats specifically says rat chow made with oil... which means it's likely dried and massively oxidized so has lots of free radicals. Therefore as you know, "high fat" has nothing to do with the basic nature of why that diet was so harmful!
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/fj.09-139691v1

[tanyalynn]

They do seem to do a lot of studies on rats and one of the concerns I have about trying to take specific dietary lessons from them is that I'm not sure what the ideal rat diet is supposed to be. Are they well-equipped for a high fat diet? I know rabbits aren't, but I'm not sure what the best macronutrient ratio is for rats. I mean--I'm not sure I'd trust them to use great quality fat anyway (corn or soybean oil? seems possible they would be chosen), but I'm having a hard time envisioning rats naturally finding lots of high fat food sources, so how well adapted would they then be for a high fat diet? I think they're well-equipped for grains, aren't they? I think they can break down phytic acid in their digestive tracts, and people can't.

So yeah, I ignored everything they said about high fat diets causing obesity, I've read enough that I don't think that's particularly true for humans. But I do wonder about really high levels of polyunsaturated fat and sugar consumption in our diets, and what epigenetic changes are you going to pass on when you're already having insulin resistance issues, or you're hypothyroid.

[ishereal]

HOw fun! We learned of this in my psychology class and it fascinates me to no end! Here is a link we used in class Epigenetics!

[ishereal]

Originally Posted by JaneS

as you know, I love reading about epigenetics.

This is one of the studies quoted:

Chronic high-fat diet in fathers programs β-cell dysfunction in female rat offspring
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture09491.html



I wish I could find out the specific fat they fed. I'm guessing it's not healthy saturated fat from unaltered coconut oil or grass fed animals.

This study showing negative effects of a high fat diet fed to rats specifically says rat chow made with oil... which means it's likely dried and massively oxidized so has lots of free radicals. Therefore as you know, "high fat" has nothing to do with the basic nature of why that diet was so harmful!
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/fj.09-139691v1

EXACTLY!!!!!!! I really would like to know the source of the "fat"...

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by ishereal

HOw fun! We learned of this in my psychology class and it fascinates me to no end! Here is a link we used in class Epigenetics!

I had a bit of trouble with the original link... let me change it above (I just took out an extra http and a couple slashes). And thanks for the link, both for the topic at-hand and because some of the other stuff on the site may be useful for one of the topics the kids were asking me to cover this year, but back on topic... this page below as one of the linked pages, also interesting.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte...ics/nutrition/

When pregnant yellow agouti mothers were fed BPA, more yellow, unhealthy babies were born than normal. Exposure to BPA during early development had caused decreased methylation of the agouti gene.

However, when BPA-exposed, pregnant yellow mice were fed methyl-rich foods, the offspring were predominantly brown. The maternal nutrient supplementation had counteracted the negative effects of exposure.

So when they say there's decreased methylation of the agouti gene, it looks like the BPA the mice are consuming needs to be methylated and that's depleting methyl groups that would otherwise be available for normal gene expression.

Cause let's face it, unless we can radically change our environments (no carpet, couches without foam containing flame retardants, _always_ making food from scratch, lots of stuff), well, it's hard to avoid chemicals that need to be methylated. Worth the effort, and I think changing out cleaning chemicals and personal care chemicals (shampoo and such) makes a significant impact, but there's still more of this stuff than, say, 10,000 years ago. So it behooves us to bump up our folate and B12 intake a bit extra? All these studies discuss folate (and they keep calling it folic acid as if they're identical) but I wonder if they just aren't measuring B12 which is just as important in the methylation process. Sigh... another reason to re-start my frozen liver pill habit.

What it doesn't discuss, and something I'm pretty torn on, is, in a person who has a history of not having enough methyl groups (specifically me), is it ever prudent to consider direct methyl donors during the pre-conception period? Something like methyl B12, or possibly DMG? I can see both being specifically very helpful to DS, but given that he's a kid and I'm an adult, and maybe mostly because I've made more progress on my health than on his, I *think* both are helpful to me now, but are they too much permanently? Heck, would it be worse to have a small amount too many methyl donors than a small amount too few, given the toxic world in which we live, where kiddo is more likely to have too few than too many?

This one discussed an interesting study on methylation changes in newborns delivered via C-section. It doesn't discuss, AT ALL, the long-term health issues associated with skewed gut bacterial colonization in c-section babies and the effect that has on the immune system, but it's still interesting.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0629081443.htm

Blood was sampled from the umbilical cords of 37 newborn infants just after delivery and then three to five days after the birth. It was analysed to see the degree of DNA-methylation in the white blood cells - a vital part of the immune system.
This showed that the 16 babies born by C-section exhibited higher DNA-methylation rates immediately after delivery than the 21 born by vaginal delivery. Three to five days after birth, [….] there were no longer significant differences between the two groups.
“Delivery by C-section has been associated with increased allergy, diabetes and leukaemia risks” says Professor Mikael Norman, [...] “Although the underlying cause is unknown, our theory is that altered birth conditions could cause a genetic imprint in the immune cells that could play a role later in life.

[deditus]

On the flip side, read this book about how YOU can change your genes through nutrition, exercise, meditation, energy medicine, bodywork, etc! It is a serious issue for the future of humans, but that doesn't mean it is unchangeable!

http://www.genieinyourgenes.com/

[tanyalynn]

Emily, you just reminded me that I own Lipton's The Biology of Belief but I haven't read it! I'll check this book out too.

Since we're getting closer to potentially TTC, and I'm actually starting to feel like I'll feel pretty good by then (and not have another pregnancy like my last one), this is bubbling to the surface a bit more. And I'm trying to find that healthy balance between creating a reasonable, healthy, sustainable lifestyle and the worry that I won't do that well--despite the fact that I'm almost guaranteed to do far, far better than I did preparing for my other 2 kids, and I don't think they're going to want to burn me at the stake by the time they reach adulthood.

Because of course if I think I can make important changes now, then of course my kids can too. There _is_ a lot of stuff that's strongly influenced, and sometimes totally determined, pre-conceptionally, but there's still quite a bit of influence at all the stages of life. And I'm not going to stop learning this year, health is such an interesting topic. So in 5 years or 10, I'll know more, I'll have figured out more about our particular health strengths and weaknesses.

[Koalamom]

Subbing for this awesome info!! Thanks tanya for starting this.

So what are these methyl food groups we can work on? The frozen liver thing, Eeek, I have never brought myself to taking it. It has b-12 and folate right? I am going to need more encouragement on this.

I for sure want to have one more babe in perhaps 2 years, but only after I am not such a gene pool mess.

[chlobo]

I'm subbing because I"m short on brain cells & methyl groups.

[mamafish9]

I can see how this works in sperm, they're made from scratch every few weeks. But girls are born with all their eggs already made. They get activated at puberty, but their DNA is already pretty set, no?

Are there any studies that show direct methylation/genetic effects being passed via the mama? I know we have a big impact because we grow the babies, but can they show effects just from our impacted eggs? At least based on what I understand of the different biology of eggs and sperm, that doesn't make sense to me.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1

So what are these methyl food groups we can work on? The frozen liver thing, Eeek, I have never brought myself to taking it. It has b-12 and folate right? I am going to need more encouragement on this.

Folate, B12, and methionine are important, and ideally if our bodies have enough, they'll make plenty of methyl groups, but there are a lot of steps involved and a lot of places where we can have inefficiencies (separate from the excess toxins we encounter using up methyl groups). And it's those inefficiencies that confuse me. I'm not sure if any foods directly have methyl groups that we can use.

Sadly, beef liver is a really great thing for this--seems almost perfect, except for that whole taste/texture issue.

I want to find a fairly straightforward picture of how methylation happens. I've seen complicated pics and I don't understand them completely.

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I can see how this works in sperm, they're made from scratch every few weeks. But girls are born with all their eggs already made. They get activated at puberty, but their DNA is already pretty set, no?

Are there any studies that show direct methylation/genetic effects being passed via the mama? I know we have a big impact because we grow the babies, but can they show effects just from our impacted eggs? At least based on what I understand of the different biology of eggs and sperm, that doesn't make sense to me.

2nd page of the first link says that they think that mother mice in enriched environments, before conception, affected their offsprings' memory (improved their brain function in a way similar to what it did for the mother).

I'll be the first to admit, my biology and organic chemistry background is fairly weak, but I'm wondering if this isn't similar to the stresses other cells undergo throughout the cells' lifetimes? For cancer, for example--I haven't read a lot on the topic, I thought part of what was going on was DNA damage and I thought that wasn't necessarily when the cell was first formed, I thought it could be anytime.

I think it's saying that methyl groups can really get around, they can activate or inactivate stuff all the time, I assume not just in reproductive cells but throughout our bodies.

[lakeruby]

This is so interesting!
I read Bruce Lipton's book a few months ago and it has really changed the way I view my health. I'm trying to adopt a much more centered and positive attitude. We're hoping to concieve a child soon, and so I'm really focusing on my myself and my happiness (actually putting my needs above others right now!) becuase everything I'm reading seems to show that the parents health-- and that includes mental health-- has a huge effect on future kids, especially during the pre-conception time.

The more I read, the more encouraged-- but also the more overwhelmed-- I feel.

[farmerjess]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I can see how this works in sperm, they're made from scratch every few weeks. But girls are born with all their eggs already made. They get activated at puberty, but their DNA is already pretty set, no?

Are there any studies that show direct methylation/genetic effects being passed via the mama? I know we have a big impact because we grow the babies, but can they show effects just from our impacted eggs? At least based on what I understand of the different biology of eggs and sperm, that doesn't make sense to me.

I think it can be explained by maternal effect.

[deditus]

Originally Posted by farmerjess

I think it can be explained by maternal effect.

Sweet!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I can see how this works in sperm, they're made from scratch every few weeks. But girls are born with all their eggs already made. They get activated at puberty, but their DNA is already pretty set, no?

Apparently, no. I remember reading maybe two years ago that showed that women can (and have), in fact produce more eggs later in life and under different conditions. It was fascinating and I'll have to see if I can find it. I recall being totally amazed by the information and the implications. What a profound thought, isn't it?

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

Apparently, no. I remember reading maybe two years ago that showed that women can (and have), in fact produce more eggs later in life and under different conditions. It was fascinating and I'll have to see if I can find it. I recall being totally amazed by the information and the implications. What a profound thought, isn't it?

I had no idea! So cool!

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

2nd page of the first link says that they think that mother mice in enriched environments, before conception, affected their offsprings' memory (improved their brain function in a way similar to what it did for the mother).

Saw that, but those results are easy to explain without genetics. Being in enriched environments could lower stress levels in mama mice, which reduces stress on future fetuses, which improves their cognitive abilities. Which is still very cool, but a very different mechanism than the epigenetics piece. Unlike the sperm studies, they didn't look at underlying genes and gene expression for the mama mice, so there's a ton of alternative explanations.

Originally Posted by farmerjess

I think it can be explained by maternal effect.

Yup, another way to explain the data, but this is one biologists have known about for a long time. I'd love to know that improving my daughter's methylation now could benefit her future babies, and I think it can by improving her general health, but not convinced yet that it would improve her egg genetics.

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

Apparently, no. I remember reading maybe two years ago that showed that women can (and have), in fact produce more eggs later in life and under different conditions. It was fascinating and I'll have to see if I can find it. I recall being totally amazed by the information and the implications. What a profound thought, isn't it?

I'd love to see a reference for that PB, I love it when science surprises us and makes us think .

[Panserbjorne]

here's one link:

http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/55612/

fabulous implications.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I can see how this works in sperm, they're made from scratch every few weeks. But girls are born with all their eggs already made. They get activated at puberty, but their DNA is already pretty set, no?

Are there any studies that show direct methylation/genetic effects being passed via the mama? I know we have a big impact because we grow the babies, but can they show effects just from our impacted eggs? At least based on what I understand of the different biology of eggs and sperm, that doesn't make sense to me.

Yasko mentioned somewhere that she thinks it's genes becoming unmethylated due to lack of methyl groups that explains why so many kids have blond hair that turns dark when they get older. If things like that can change, and it's the methyl groups that turn the genes on and off, then, yeah, the DNA is set with the eggs, but the expression of it isn't. There's so much replication happening while the fetus is growing that a methyl group reserve is important for DNA expression. Or am I entirely missing your question?

Originally Posted by tanyalynn

Folate, B12, and methionine are important, and ideally if our bodies have enough, they'll make plenty of methyl groups, but there are a lot of steps involved and a lot of places where we can have inefficiencies (separate from the excess toxins we encounter using up methyl groups). And it's those inefficiencies that confuse me. I'm not sure if any foods directly have methyl groups that we can use.

Sadly, beef liver is a really great thing for this--seems almost perfect, except for that whole taste/texture issue.

I want to find a fairly straightforward picture of how methylation happens. I've seen complicated pics and I don't understand them completely.

As I'm learning with our B12 experiments, there's folate, b12 and methionine, which are all necessary in order to used the methyl groups (convert them to SAMe, which is how our bodies most readily recognize/utilize them), but then there's also the methyl groups themselves. They have to come from somewhere. I'm with bluebirdmama, wondering what foods are specifically rich in methyl groups.

Lamb liver tastes WAY better than beef liver. Way better.

I'll see what I can do for a visual for you on methylation. Is it specifically the foalte/b12 methyl cycle, or is it the whole yasko diagram that you want to understand?