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"Attention seeking" vs SPD

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
I'm trying to think of how to phrase my query, but I'm not sure where to go with this, so I'm going to describe the incident and let you all telll me what you think.

DD is 2E -- she's gifted and SPD. She's 4, will be 5 in January. While SPD has been a challenge for her in school since she first started, her behavior really went downhill shortly after age 3. She went through a hitting/shoving phase, in which she swore other kids were always shoving her, so she would shove them. Likely this came about because she had poor vision, and it began to disappear after she got glasses at 3.5.

But around the same time, she started acting out in other ways at home and at school. She gets all wound up, and has a hard time calming down. She will throw stuff or use materials inappropriately (she is at a Montessori preschool and appropriate use is important). She talks loudly, constantly, and will repeat a question or statement over and over if you don't acknowledge that you heard it. She often narrates what she's doing (cute when she's playing with her dollhouse, not so much at school). She has no volume control. She gets too busy talking to listen, talks over other people. She can be very bossy. And so on.

At the same time, I was in the first tri of my pregnancy, and very sick. I came home every day, collapsed on the couch, leaving only to run to the bathroom. At 16 weeks I was laid off from my job (i was the family breadwinner). DH, who was a SAHD, went back to work and eventually got an excellent job, so I became a SAHM. DS was born about a year ago, so that was a big change for DD as well. DS is now a year old.

ANYHOW, so that's all background. On to the issue:

We went for DD's parent/teacher conference at preschool last week. She's in her 3rd year of Montessori preschool, but the teacher is new this year. She's an older lady and has lots of experience, but doesn't know DD well. Earlier in the year we sat down and I tried to describe SPD. I sent a weight vest and some brushes, and talked about how to use them. (Kinda. Our OT wasn't very awesome about telling ME, so my descriptions were probably less than awesome.)

Anyhow, so in conference, the teacher said they used the weight vest but that DD still has trouble in circle time. She often is sent to the hallway to stand "until she can calm her body." Apparently she usually manages this and comes to join the circle after several minutes.

Teacher also expressed that DD often talks loudly while working, interrupts conversations, and tries to tell the other kids how to do their work. Sometimes she has meltdowns. Teacher expressed that she believed this was attention-seeking behavior, and suggested that it might help at school if we were able to give her more one-on-one time at home. She thought that would help especially since the last 18ish months have been disruptive for DD at home, with all the changes.

So. I'm not sure myself where to draw the line between "SPD-caused problem behavior" and "almost-5, loves attention, no longer an only child", but I felt like her teacher was not leaving much room for SPD in there. But I'm not sure how to react or what to do.

I wish her teacher from last year was still there.
post #2 of 16
It sounds like this new teacher is not familiar with SPD sensory seeking behavior. I'd be amazed that your DD can actually pull herself together when told to stand in the hall. That's exactly the time she needs to be getting appropriate sensory input to calm herself.

My DS is also always loud...constantly talking as well. He also interrupts and is bossy. I keep trying to remind him (and model myself) a quieter voice. I also keep trying to remind him about interrupting people. Although, I think at least some of my DS's issues are related to his being on the spectrum.

I have not put him in preschool, but have opted to homeschool him because with the way he is, he can best learn here at home. He can take sensory breaks when he needs to, and he's not "disrupting" a whole class of children expected to sit quietly at act appropriately at specific times. I realize that homeschool may not be an option for you, but I'm just throwing it out there that this particular school environment may not be suitable for your DD. Are there other schooling options around you?
post #3 of 16
I have to agree that this is typical SPD behavior. I also would basking myself if this is the right preschool as well, it doesnt sound like the teacher knows much about spd and hashed mind set on it being behavioral.

For group time I'd recommend a fidget she can hold in her lap and play with and a carpet square to sit on. She should be allowed to move around if she needs it, a carpet square will give her boundaries to that movement while allowing her to wiggle. The speaking out is something I'd work on but she is a bit young to fully grasp that IMO. My daughter is 7 1/2 and we had the same conversation with her pre-k teacher lol. She'd pretty much take over the class and take charge. She still is like that. Fortunately her teacher is very patient (and had her brother a couple years ago who is autistic). So I don't have any suggestions for that part, still looking for solutions myself, lol.
post #4 of 16
I really don't have much advice for you because I haven't really worked with SPD children. However, my friend says that at her son's school (which works with a lot of autistic children; he has aspergers) they have a "calm down" room for when the children get overwhelmed. It has bean bags and they learn to figure out on their own when they're starting to feel overwhelmed and need to calm down and, on their own, they go to the calm down room until they feel that they are ready to go back to class and resume working. My friend says it works really well for her DS.

I would also look into schools that either cater to, or have a lot of experience working with, special needs children like SPD. I grew up in Montessori so I completely understand the desire to keep your DD in Montessori, but another method may work better. Of course you can call other Montessori schools and ask if any of their teachers have experience (and success) working with children who have similar issues to your DD....and not really as in "kids that act out" but as children who have special needs behind it...even if a lot of it IS simply a matter of acting out, the way of handling her would be different because of her SPD...kwim?

HTH!

ETA: I would suggest looking into a new OT. If they couldn't explain to *you* very well about the vest and brushes, they're probably not your best choice... perhaps post in Finding Your Tribe here and see if there are any local special needs parenting groups in your area where you can get references.
post #5 of 16
Well - it sounds like the teacher really wanted to be able to say SOMETHING that would be constructive and show she 'knows what she's doing' - I find it somewhat irritating that her comments were targeted at YOUR behavior -
seriously, how does she know you DON"T spend LOTS of 1:1 time with her?

Kids with SPD will be impulsive and seem less mature than their peers - what else do they do for her to help with her sensory issues? - is the loud class room what gets her keyed up? Is there any where for her to go (besides the hall?) for quiet time if the noise/stimulation gets too much?

Do you have any info on SPD to share with her? She might just need some more strategies to employ to help your dd - does your OT have any suggestions/input?
post #6 of 16
Sounds similar to my little guy who is also in Montessori. A truly authentic Montessori would be a wonderful environment for him, but the modified public Montessori he's in this year is still better than a traditional classroom for him. A well run room should be peaceful and calm enough that the stress or chaos wouldn't be additionally contributing too much to his behaviors.

Before his dx, his teachers last year talked a lot about my responsibility in shaping his behavior - make sure he has responsibilities at home, etc. I also had a baby about a year ago and saw a LOT of behaviors at that time (which is no surprise, considering he has a hard time recognizing and regulating some emotions). Anyway, since I didn't have a dx, and was just beginning to think about SPD, I didn't have a leg to stand on, and it made me feel like I was doing something wrong.

To me, though, it sounds like your dd's teacher kind of tries to help, especially if she's offering the weighted vest. The brushing should ideally be done every 2 hours or so, but we don't deal with that at school - just before and after. If I didn't know anything about SPD, I might be a little wary of the brushing too - especially if you didn't have the solid information to give her due to your OT's explanation. Furthermore, I'd be quite hesitant to do the joint compressions that always follow the brushing if I were not specifically trained in them. There's a liability issue there. Also, I'm going out on a limb to say that you'd be hard-pressed to find a teacher with SPD experience who isn't a special education teacher. And even then, it seems to be most widely recognized/accepted in students with ASD, rather than as a stand-alone (or even with ADHD, as is also the case most times).

I wonder if her teacher would be willing to try some of those other suggestions - a fidget during line time, maybe a space nearby she could move to if she's too squirmy on line, but that's still close enough to hear what's going on and that has her vest and/or another sensory item, maybe one of those rubber pillow things to sit on during line, or some heavy work tasks for her to do a few times per day (carrying a box of something to the office, maybe?). Ds constantly got in trouble for movement during line - from the time he was in traditional "preschool" (daycare) until now. But most people simply removed him so that he wasn't disrupting others, but still within earshot, and then invited him back when he was calmer.

I'd continue to gently educate the teacher, offer her information about SPD and how it relates to your dd. If you can find something that works, then she will start to "buy-in." Be consistent about the brushing before and after school, for sure (this helped a ton for ds!), and keep her on a sensory diet at home, and see if you can fine a few things that could help her at school. For ds, his teacher agreed that gum would be acceptable if it keeps him focused and from chewing on non-food items, and I sent a time-timer to help him budget time (he's in 1st, though).

I'm not an OT - just speaking from what I've learned: have you tried any Therapeutic Listening? I was thinking that it could help with her volume and aural seeking behaviors; my OT said that hand-hugs, crab walks, or bear walks could be substitutes for the brushing, but they would still need to be followed by the joint compressions for full effect. Maybe 1/2 effect without the compressions would be better than nothing, though. ? You could ask your OT about some of that maybe.
post #7 of 16
My little one also has SPD and is in Montessori. This is his last year in primary, and honestly, if I had to do it again, I don't think I'd have him in Montessori at all. I love the philosophy, and for my other kiddo it has been wonderful,but for my SPD kid, I think it's not a great fit. We were initially drawn to it because the classrooms were calm and quiet and DS has some auditory defensiveness issues. Now that we've been there a while, I think that there is not enough sensory input for my guy, and he has a way of seeking his own input if he needs it -which tends to make his teacher annoyed. I feel like I spend a lot of time educating and trying to find ways to fit SPD protocols into Montessori activites, Especially finding proprioceptive stuff.
post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 
ETA: Sorry for the typos! I was typing form my phone and it was really hard to see on such a small screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimPM View Post
It sounds like this new teacher is not familiar with SPD sensory seeking behavior. I'd be amazed that your DD can actually pull herself together when told to stand in the hall. That's exactly the time she needs to be getting appropriate sensory input to calm herself.
I was also surprise but was told she usually comes back in within a few mnutes. I have no idea how she manages to calm down. Reading calms her but it's a tiny hall without much reading material.

Quote:
My DS is also always loud...constantly talking as well. He also interrupts and is bossy. I keep trying to remind him (and model myself) a quieter voice. I also keep trying to remind him about interrupting people. Although, I think at least some of my DS's issues are related to his being on the spectrum.
she has gotten better lately about isn't an appropriate voice in sme hme situations, such as if her brother is asleep so I am whispering or talking very quietly at bedtime. Sometimes she does the same. It's really hit and miss though.

Quote:
I have not put him in preschool, but have opted to homeschool him because with the way he is, he can best learn here at home. He can take sensory breaks when he needs to, and he's not "disrupting" a whole class of children expected to sit quietly at act appropriately at specific times. I realize that homeschool may not be an option for you, but I'm just throwing it out there that this particular school environment may not be suitable for your DD. Are there other schooling options around you?
homes hoolng is not an option. I don't have the bandwidth tackle her social and academic needs, both of which are very high. She has learned alot at school during the last two years and generally enjoys going. And she is very much an extrovert who needs t be around other people and kids.

I don't know whee we could move her. For one thing we did comimit to paying tuition here for a year (though we pay mnthly). Our area has high unmplyment and the school s expensive, so enrollment is down. The alternate program we'd considered for this yar ended up renting an mpty classroom at our school and I far trying to get out of our contract and switch to that program would cause trouble. She could probably get a spot in the district special needs program but it is a long distance and they will not accomodate her a academic needs.
post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristine233 View Post
For group time I'd recommend a fidget she can hold in her lap and play with and a carpet square to sit on. She should be allowed to move around if she needs it, a carpet square will give her boundaries to that movement while allowing her to wiggle. The speaking out is something I'd work on but she is a bit young to fully grasp that IMO
The fidget toy is something we haven't tried. What sort of toy would be useful? I have no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smeep View Post
I would also look into schools that either cater to, or have a lot of experience working with, special needs children like SPD. I grew up in Montessori so I completely understand the desire to keep your DD in Montessori, but another method may work better. Of course you can call other Montessori schools and ask if any of their teachers have experience (and success) working with children who have similar issues to your DD....and not really as in "kids that act out" but as children who have special needs behind it...even if a lot of it IS simply a matter of acting out, the way of handling her would be different because of her SPD...kwim?
We did find a local Montessori preschool+elementary that claimed to have lots of experience, but they are full up. Also, very, very expensive. The preschool is pricey for a preschool, but so much less costly than the larger programs. None seem to offer financial aid (certainly not this far after the start of the year).

The other programs I found that seemed to know anything about SPD were not willing to accommodate her within their curriculum, though. And frankly, she'd be bored to tears with "learning" letters and numbers when she can sit at home and read herself "Little House on the Prairie" and do basic multiplication. Then she'd just be acting out because she's bored.

Quote:
ETA: I would suggest looking into a new OT. If they couldn't explain to *you* very well about the vest and brushes, they're probably not your best choice... perhaps post in Finding Your Tribe here and see if there are any local special needs parenting groups in your area where you can get references.
We're on the waiting list for a new OT. We are out of insurance-covered appointments for this year anyhow. I'm hopeful we'll be able to start at the new place in early January.
post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufilia View Post

Teacher also expressed that DD often talks loudly while working, interrupts conversations, and tries to tell the other kids how to do their work. Sometimes she has meltdowns. Teacher expressed that she believed this was attention-seeking behavior, and suggested that it might help at school if we were able to give her more one-on-one time at home. She thought that would help especially since the last 18ish months have been disruptive for DD at home, with all the changes.

So. I'm not sure myself where to draw the line between "SPD-caused problem behavior" and "almost-5, loves attention, no longer an only child", but I felt like her teacher was not leaving much room for SPD in there. But I'm not sure how to react or what to do.

I wish her teacher from last year was still there.
This is exactly how ds was behaving last year in K, and his sister was 3yo then . We got the "one-on-one" advice, discipline advice, and every other piece of advice that indicates that ds' behavior must be due to something WE were doing wrong.

This year ds has an ADHD diagnosis/possible Asperger's, and is taking medication for the ADHD. His OT report was very helpful in getting his 1st grade teacher to understand ds.
post #11 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonamarq View Post
Well - it sounds like the teacher really wanted to be able to say SOMETHING that would be constructive and show she 'knows what she's doing' - I find it somewhat irritating that her comments were targeted at YOUR behavior -
seriously, how does she know you DON"T spend LOTS of 1:1 time with her?
I have a feeling Vivian's been vocal about how mama's always nursing that baby.

Quote:
Kids with SPD will be impulsive and seem less mature than their peers - what else do they do for her to help with her sensory issues? - is the loud class room what gets her keyed up? Is there any where for her to go (besides the hall?) for quiet time if the noise/stimulation gets too much?
We moved to this school fro a playschool because it's much quieter and less chaotic, and she's been ok with the volume/activity level in the classroom in the past. So unless the teacher's let things go nuts, I don't think that's the problem.

Quote:
Do you have any info on SPD to share with her? She might just need some more strategies to employ to help your dd - does your OT have any suggestions/input?
Our OT suggested heavy work, and I passed that along, but I'm not sure they've done much of that either. I picked up a copy of "This is Gabriel Making Sense of School" thinking that might be short and to the point enough to get the teacher the general idea, but I really think it's not enough.
post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufilia View Post
Our OT suggested heavy work, and I passed that along, but I'm not sure they've done much of that either. I picked up a copy of "This is Gabriel Making Sense of School" thinking that might be short and to the point enough to get the teacher the general idea, but I really think it's not enough.
I'd have the OT write an evaluation/report with the knowledge that you want your dd's teacher to better understand your dd issues and how to help her. I could send you what ds' OT did for me if you need an example.
post #13 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmeline II View Post
I'd have the OT write an evaluation/report with the knowledge that you want your dd's teacher to better understand your dd issues and how to help her. I could send you what ds' OT did for me if you need an example.
That's a good idea, and I would LOVE to see a copy of what your OT did.
post #14 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose-Roget View Post
Sounds similar to my little guy who is also in Montessori. A truly authentic Montessori would be a wonderful environment for him, but the modified public Montessori he's in this year is still better than a traditional classroom for him. A well run room should be peaceful and calm enough that the stress or chaos wouldn't be additionally contributing too much to his behaviors.
That's why we choose Montessori, and found that it worked much better for DD than the playschool she went to previously. The toughest part of the day for her (from what I've gathered) is circle time, which is also probably the most visually chaotic part of the day.

Quote:
To me, though, it sounds like your dd's teacher kind of tries to help, especially if she's offering the weighted vest. The brushing should ideally be done every 2 hours or so, but we don't deal with that at school - just before and after. If I didn't know anything about SPD, I might be a little wary of the brushing too - especially if you didn't have the solid information to give her due to your OT's explanation. Furthermore, I'd be quite hesitant to do the joint compressions that always follow the brushing if I were not specifically trained in them.
My DH refers to brushing as "voodoo witchcraft treatment" but he still does it if asked.

We didn't ask her to do joint compressions, and suggested that DD might be asked to brush herself if the teacher didn't have time and she really needed to calm down. Her OT thought she could do it, though my faith in the OT is limited.

Quote:
I wonder if her teacher would be willing to try some of those other suggestions - a fidget during line time, maybe a space nearby she could move to if she's too squirmy on line, but that's still close enough to hear what's going on and that has her vest and/or another sensory item, maybe one of those rubber pillow things to sit on during line, or some heavy work tasks for her to do a few times per day (carrying a box of something to the office, maybe?). Ds constantly got in trouble for movement during line - from the time he was in traditional "preschool" (daycare) until now. But most people simply removed him so that he wasn't disrupting others, but still within earshot, and then invited him back when he was calmer.
I'd suggested they try putting her on a chair outside the circle; that's what she did for the first 6 months of her first year. But her teacher said that was not working.

The rubber pillow is a good idea. I'm going to order one. I don't think it would help at circle but maybe during the work period. A fidget might help during circle as long as it didn't distract the other kids (kind of an open question, since the other kids are mostly 3-4 and would probably also love to hold a toy!).

Quote:
I'm not an OT - just speaking from what I've learned: have you tried any Therapeutic Listening? I was thinking that it could help with her volume and aural seeking behaviors; my OT said that hand-hugs, crab walks, or bear walks could be substitutes for the brushing, but they would still need to be followed by the joint compressions for full effect. Maybe 1/2 effect without the compressions would be better than nothing, though. ? You could ask your OT about some of that maybe.
That's interesting about the alternate activities; maybe things like bear walks work as "heavy work" sort of stuff? 1/2 effect WOULD be better than nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maybemom05 View Post
My little one also has SPD and is in Montessori. This is his last year in primary, and honestly, if I had to do it again, I don't think I'd have him in Montessori at all. I love the philosophy, and for my other kiddo it has been wonderful,but for my SPD kid, I think it's not a great fit. We were initially drawn to it because the classrooms were calm and quiet and DS has some auditory defensiveness issues. Now that we've been there a while, I think that there is not enough sensory input for my guy, and he has a way of seeking his own input if he needs it -which tends to make his teacher annoyed. I feel like I spend a lot of time educating and trying to find ways to fit SPD protocols into Montessori activites, Especially finding proprioceptive stuff.
That's an interesting idea that there's not enough sensory input.

This makes me think of when I take DD to the YMCA and put her in childcare. Sometimes she's running around like a wild thing with the other kids, but usually when I come to get here, the other kids are being crazy and loud and DD is sitting at a table writing or reading.
post #15 of 16

The information to me about brushing was that it has to be followed by compressions to have the desired effect.  Kind of like it's providing the 2nd part of the sensory organization feedback or something.  The animal walks act more like heavy work, giving deep stimulation to the joints, muscles, nerves.  I don't understand fully, but that's what I've been told.

 

You could look into a simple "stress ball" or even ask your OT for some Theraputty (or I bought Brain Food at Fat Brain Toys), which you could teach your dd to squish and squeeze during "still" activities.  They provide something for the hands to do that provides strong sensory feedback and without being too distracting to others (if used appropriately).  Many other fidgets I turn out to be really brightly colored and look more like toys.  Gum may also help, depending on your dd.

 

Hope you're getting some ideas to help.  It's hard to find the line between SPD and attention-seeking.  I know my mom and others believe I'm providing too many excuses for ds, but he's little and trying to get comfortable in his body.  I know he really wants to please and just has a hard time sometimes, and I'm sure your dd is very similar.

 

post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufilia View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmeline II View Post
I'd have the OT write an evaluation/report with the knowledge that you want your dd's teacher to better understand your dd issues and how to help her. I could send you what ds' OT did for me if you need an example.
That's a good idea, and I would LOVE to see a copy of what your OT did.


I sent it ;0)

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