Advice: How to parent when others don't? - Page 3

[ellemenope]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama

I just don't see why you would quote me and suggest I am apathetic and jaded or suggest I don't stand up for my kid. And of course I want every person in the world to treat my son fairly and justly. But that simply won't happen.

What we CAN do is help them navigate the INEVITABLE bumps and bruises they incure along the way. And packing up your kid and leaving each time you think something isn't going his way won't help him at all.

Like everything it is a balance-helping your kid to learn to help himself, and being ready to step in when you sense he doesn't have the tools or ability to figure it out. IMO the OP is lacking this balance. Life is unfair sometimes. No we don't have to endlessly remind our kids of that fact, but they will experience it and we do need to help them work through the unfairness without the "I am taking my toys and going home!!" attitude.

The implication in the OP seems to be that she and her husband are doing their parenting perfectly in order to raise an ambassador to the world while the rest of us raise little heathens that hurt her kid. And I too would love to hear her opinion of what is running wild. But alas, this is her only post on MDC.

I removed your quote because it was not fair to you. I was not quoting you to call you jaded or apathetic. But, it was your quote or line of argument that was the impetus of my 'mini rant'. It should not be (and was not meant to be) directed at you, especially reading your next post. I have just heard the extension of this argument (the argument that you should not shelter your kids from disapointment because they need to get used to it) in real life a couple times now and it drives me batty.

Are we cool?

[oaktreemama]

Totally cool.

[aloha girl]

Originally Posted by savithny

I don't believe children are inherently good.

I don't believe children are inherently evil.

I think all children, from the moment of their birth, are looking to the adults around them, studying them to learn what is appropriate behavior for the culture into which they have been born. Babies as young as MINUTES old will mimic adult facial expressions.

You cannot just leave children alone, give them no feedback as to the cultural appropriateness of their actions, and expect them to turn into functional members of society. They need -- and instinctively want -- to know how their actions affect others and whether what they're doing is "okay" according ot the rules of their world.

Different cultures have different rules. Kids raised within a culture that accepts or even values violence learn from their elders that violence is good -- by the parents showing their approbation of violent behavior. In our culture, even if we claim we're not raising our children via behaviorism or rewards, our responses to their behavior are what shape their concept of what is and is not okay -- and if we truly do not respond to their behavior, they may not learn that. Or they make take away the message that *anything* is okay. Or they may take away the message that no one cares enough to even teach them the rules of the tribe.

Yes, agree with this! Toddlers totally need guidance, they are like little cavemen otherwise! We do need to teach them how to behave. I think once an incident happens, the more aggressive child should be reprimanded and if he/she does it again removed from the playdate situation. I do think they learn very quickly to behave when leaving is the consequence.

[lisavark]

I'm fascinated by this thread. I can totally see myself in BOTH extremes--sometimes I feel like I'm a helicopter parent, and sometimes I worry that I'm THAT parent letting my kid run wild. I've probably been both at one time or another.

However, I do think it's interesting that nobody seems to be addressing how they handle other people's kids when those kids are doing something to your child. DD is in a playgroup that has been together since they were newborns, and maybe it's just that I know those moms so well, but I don't think twice about correcting other people's kids at playgroup. We all do it. If another kid snatches a toy out of DD's hands when I'm right there and his mom is on the couch nursing her baby, I will talk to the kid and say hey, DD was playing with that, please let her finish and then she'll give you a turn. Of course I would never punish or impose consequences on someone else's child (but then I don't punish my kid either ), but I will intervene if it looks like somebody is going to get hurt. And I'll do that with strangers on the playground too. I've asked older kids not to go up the slide at the playground and asked kids to be careful with the swings. It's not a matter of parenting other people's kids--it's just being part of a community, making sure that everybody stays safe. I only intervene if I see a safety issue, but sometimes that safety issue might just be the fact that I know my daughter will bite or shove if someone steal a toy she's using!

I would like to lean toward the free range end of the spectrum--I believe people are naturally social (not necessarily "good," but I like what a PP said about how they're primarily imitative) and that kids need to learn how to interact without adult intervention. But it's definitely an age difference, too. When DD was 18 months I was a helicopter parent (that biting stage didn't help, either ). Now she's 2.5 and I definitely get to sit on the bench sometimes at the playground. And I love it when that happens!

[bronxmom]

Originally Posted by paxye

QUOTE]Since becoming parents, my husband and I decided to be very interactive parents. We plainly believed that all children misbehaved and need to be guided to proper/polite behavior; we also believed the one(s) responsible for such guidance were the parents. Moreover, if its quality you want its quality you have to give- in essence, you only get what you put in. Following this line of reasoning, if unsupervised, our child would interact improperly with others, would not receive adequate instruction regarding behavior and would continue to behave improperly to the detriment of themselves and others.

I have a different way of seeing it...

Since becoming parents, my husband and I decided not to micromanage our children. We plainly believe that kids are good, will interact well with others and will work thing out on their own and seek guidance from us parents if they need it. We also believe that kids should feel comfortable to come seek guidance without fear of being punished, and believe that they will do so. We believe that kids learn each others limits and learn to adapt to different people and situations when they are left on their own to do so.

My question to you is who decides what is a positive experience? You, or the children? Who decides when chaos begins? Who decides when kids "running amok" are just having fun or are out of control? I have four kids, the 3 oldest are boys... My normal may very well be another person's Chaos. From the outside some interactions might look negative when they are if fact very positive.

In my circle of friends kids are encouraged to be kids, to play and have fun and work things out together and come see the parents if they need help without fear of retribution. They have learned to adapt to situations and know what is acceptable and where...Each place has different "rules", each person has different limits and the kids know that somethings work differently depending on where you are and who you are with...

I can't imagine not being in the kitchen helping a friend out with a party, or sitting around the table talking while the kids all play together and have fun... I also can't imagine having a parent watching over my every move as a kid and stepping in whenever something wasn't to their liking.[/QUOTE]
YEAH to you!!! My thoughts exactly. It's not that other's aren't parenting, it's that they parent DIFFERENTLY than you. And that's just fine. I go a little crazy when I see parents micro-managing their kid's interactions with my kids or elsewhere, but that's there style and I've got mine. But please back off the judgments.

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Hi, i completely understand what you are saying- I was doing everything you were doing and felt the same way. Now hes about to be 3 and the other children i am refereing to are 4, and 5. Also they dont temper tantrum, or push- they are verbaly abusive. The give dirty looks and manipulate situations- knowing that my son will get into trouble for it or that what they are doing is wrong. So, yeah, when he was smaller and was with other children around his age- theres nothing you can do because it has to do with maturity and learning. I used to tell my son, "oh, its ok honey, hes still learning to share" and he would smile, not get angry but have compassion- thats the son I've raised and invested thime in. He understands whats rude, mean, and nice- so HE gets "sad" about his cousins being mean- eventually he tells me hes "mad" and doesnt want to see them anymore or "i dont want niko in my house anymore"

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Originally Posted by Petie1104

I'm actually more concerned about this comment...


"I'm trying to produce positive feelings people, positive thinking, a positive child, a positive person. Having my child become angry at being treated unfairly( typically without any punishment/guidance for the offending child) isn't part of that plan."

I know the desire, especially with a first child, but you CANNOT offer only positive feelings, positive thinking, and positive people in your child's life. To expect that is unreasonable for the rest of us mere humans who want nothing more than to offer our children a life, safe, happy, and full of diverse people. Offering only good things means that your child will only face disappointment when it is too late. You will not be able to protect him all the time from all the negative, and if he hasn't dealt with it before he is school aged, then there are going to be explosive, or completely devastating reactions to it. A child learns that not all kids do the right things, and this is GOOD. A child learns that life isn't fair and this is GOOD. These are good things because it allows them to experience a small amount of what we as adults feel, and isn't that the ultimate goal, to teach our children how to be happy in the world they will be living in as an adult, after we can no longer control every interaction? This attitude of "only positive" really concerns me for your child. I know you are trying to do what is best, but please know that a little disappointment, a little unfairness, seen by your child is a GOOD thing. I have 4 kids, and one thing you learn with more children is that you cannot control every situation, there is just one mom and 4 kids, so things are going to get missed. If a child is never allowed to test out their ability in conflict resolution, they will never learn how to resolve conflicts.

I, like the others, would like to know what you mean, specific behaviors, that you are describing as "kids running wild".

Thank you so much for your imput- I really needed to hear that. My main concern is for my sons emotional well being. He is extreamlly friendly, and outgoing. We're not helicopter parents- we are 6 ft away from our child , usually talking to ourselves while he does what he does; we only interject when something is wrong- kids pushing; snatching toys from each other when they are 4,5,10 yrs old and already know whats sharing/being mean is. When my son was younger- we did help social interactings because the kids that played on their own really weren't playing with each other- they would only play next to each other. They would get so shy when talking them we would just keep up the encouragement (with other kids) making them feel safe, and comfortable- then they would play with out kid who would always be excittedly waiting-hes very patient.

The behaviors I am talking about are not simple social customs(shaking hands, saying good-bye, saying hello, not poking your nose,lol) - the behaviors I am talking about come from 4, 5, and 10 year olds: who give ugly looks, say something mean then snack away toys- who break things and ask my son to say he broke it- who intentionally ignore him to be mean- who snub him and refuse to say hello- who wont share their toys but ask my son to share all of his or insist that sharing mean my son get to hold a toy for two seconds before it belongs right back to them.

Obviously the behaviors I am most upset about are the ones that upset my son the most and that is being ignored, snubbed and not said hello to(part of being ignored i guess), and having others not share with him when he shares.

I just see how these things are completely inappropriate for kids their age to be doing- they are meant to be mean and my son feels that. If its undeniable that my sons feeling get hurt then its something i shouldn't let him endure without reason- that what I thought and thats the reason behind leaving or not engaging with those people. The children I speak of are from my family so we see them often- they will always be around so i dont see the point in too much exposure to being bullied/being treated with malice.

Thank you so much, I feel like this is lesson now, something horrible that our son can learn from instead of it just something mean that happens to my son at EVERY family function.

[LadyCatherine185]

I am glad you clarified the situations in which you were talking about.

In the case of a 5-10 year old family member acting that way, I would talk with the parents. Bring up specific situations and let them know what your DS is saying about the situation. Chances are, the parents probably have no idea that kind of bullying is going on. If they do, and don't want to do anything about it, maybe avoiding family functions for a little while is the way to go? sorry you are going through this!

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

assuming everythings ok motto

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

I suppose all of our parenting is based in part of our own experiences as a child. This being the case I would like to respond to the above bolded with my experience.

I don't see how parents paying attention to what is going on with their children is micromanaging. Or perhaps is is...but I guess I don't see the problem. I suppose its because I don't believe that children are good, and I certainly don't believe that interacting well with others is the default. My experience is that kids in groups tend to behave more like in Lord of the Flies. Kids like the feeling of having power over other children, and are often cruel as a result. As a parent I want to know when this is happening to my kid, and I certainly don't want my kid to feel like they have to deal with it alone. Sure kids learn from each others limits...but that learning only signifies growth if the two respect one another, which is often not the case.

My childhood was pretty free range, and as a result I have tons of emotional scars, because the children in my neighborhood,and my school were cruel. No adult protected me. My teacher told me that kids teased me because I deserved it, and that I had to learn how to deal. These scenarios are not healthy for kids, and it is the responsibility of adults to monitor them. If all your kids and the kids of your friends love one another and get along great then you are a very lucky woman...enjoy helping out in the kitchen. But if not than I do not agree with your decision...because it might be a positive experience for you but not the kids.

Its not the chaos that bothers me...kids should be able to run around and be loud and have fun. Sure. But they should not be unsupervised.

Thanks,
Someone who has similar experiences as I. When we go to the park, when there is a group of children and they are unsupervised all i see is kids bullying, being not rude but down right disrespectful, its crazy and it is just like the lord of the flies! So yeah, i stay close. My parents did the "you are free to be kids" idea and i was bullied endlessly until I became the bully;very sad- and i think their parenting sucked then and i still think it does not. Its not ok to assume everythings ok- you should know because 15-20yrs later the excuse of "i didnt know" dont cut it- I remember how they were having a good time yapping while i was left to defend myself against the pack of wolves.

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

I am glad you clarified the situations in which you were talking about.

In the case of a 5-10 year old family member acting that way, I would talk with the parents. Bring up specific situations and let them know what your DS is saying about the situation. Chances are, the parents probably have no idea that kind of bullying is going on. If they do, and don't want to do anything about it, maybe avoiding family functions for a little while is the way to go? sorry you are going through this!

thanks for your understanding. I have told them, my other family members have brought up/pointed out the behaviors I am talking about. They either get defensive, go into denial mode, shake their head like "yeah, yeah, yeah" or if we are real lucky they might from where they are sitting(usually very very far away) yell weakly, "so in so- stop it" and then return to ignoring they kids.

I dont know what to do anymore, their kid is being hurtful to mine- nothing gets done- i dont think thats going to change:[ But my son, he's very loving and we've taught him to be forgiving and he always wants to try again(to be friends)- and we do but it always ends up the same way: that kids being malicious, and my son feeling sad.

How is this going to shape him, how do i guild him through this

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Originally Posted by belltree

I have been reading your posts several times by now and I am not sure, I am imagining the same situations as you are. Maybe our neighborhoods are very different?

Generally I find myself astonished and annoyed by the amount parents are involved in their kids play. To give an example: My son, 12months, was running around the playground and a 2.5 year old approached him, and touched him. Friendly. Immediately, his mom shouted: "Don't attack the baby. Leave the baby alone. " The boy retracted, confused. All talking to the mom and child, that my son is fine and it's ok to touch, lead to nothing.

For me, this is a very typical situation, that kids are interested in playing with my child, but parents intervene any kind of interaction with kids, that are not of the same age.

Another situation: we were at the park, just chilling. A father arrives with his daughter. The daughter was happy, a bit loud maybe. The dad scolds her: "Don't disturb the other people". The dad wanted the daughter to ride her bike - that's why he came to the park with her, but she wanted to run around. The dad again intervenes: "You need to ride your bike". Daughter starts crying. Dad: "When you don't behave right now, we're leaving". 2min later they are leaving the park...

Honestly, I have tons of scenes in my head where parents are micromanaging their kids, they don't trust their kids, the kids don't trust themselves.

I was a free-range child, I ran around, and sometimes scolded, if I did something bad. If I ran into a situation I couldn't handle, I spoke with my parents and they would help out or advice me. I remember for instance a boy, that used to be mean to me on the way to school.

I would like for my children to grow up free-range, I had such a good time not being controlled by adults. It was great. But I could always trust that my parents would be there if need be. Or they would talk with me, if I had done something bad.

God I am glad i read this- if this is whats referred to as micromanagement i think its been framed too nicely- sounds like retardation and extremism. Our family is the family saying hello to strangers- shaking hands! people are so surprised that my son (going to be 3 in jan) goes up to people say "good morning" or shakes peoples hand. My son will bring toys to the park and ask others if they want a turn, or ask the other kids to build/race, etc. We walk behind our kid, and offer encouragement if he seems hesitant to participate in something or attempt some new victory over a playgroup equipment. We don't get step into our kids play unless it seems necessary- for guidance(correction) or encouragement(emotional support).

These people don't sound friendly or interested in building positive social environments. Its funny I've read so many responses implying I am micromanaging but I assure you if this is the definition I am not.
I guess i need a definition now of "free range" because I understand that as the kind of eggs I buy.

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Originally Posted by Auraji

I think it is. My DDS just turned 5 and he has a friend who just turned 4 and DD who will 18M in a week always go upstairs and play in his room with the trains while the parents hang out downstairs, eat, listen to music, go outside.

Most of the time they'll play happily, sometimes I'll hear them have a little argument over a toy or one of them tell the other (usually DD) that hitting isn't nice. I don't come upstairs unless I hear something that needs me like actual crying or kids throwing big things and that rarely happens.

I think you are very lucky people to have 4year olds who don't maliciously interact with your children. I tried the trust thing- turns out the other kid was pushing mine down, snatching toys away, telling him how to play games (only his way), and ignoring him on purpose to make him feel bad. I guess if you find children who behave appropriately then its fine to leave them alone. I let my son play alone with one of my nephews who is 6 but hes well behaved- he doesnt bully. The kids I am talking about are bullies- and i dont see how just subjecting him to bullying is good or part of letting him "be a kid"

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Originally Posted by ellemenope

There is enough injustice in the world. Does that mean parents should not show their children that they will do everything in their power to be fair and just? Should they not optimistically desire such treatment of their kids from others? Honestly, the sentiment that we must prepare our children for life's disapointments by not standing up for them is jaded and apathetic.

As far as supervision, the parent or caregiver is responsible for their toddler's behaviour at all times. Even if it is flippin age appropriate, if it is not something an adult should do without apologizing, the adult needs to be there to stop the behaviour and apologize for the tot. This supervision can be done responsibily in varying degrees and from varying distances appropriately depending on the child.

Seriously, I can't stand it when people think it should be all Lord of the Flies on the playground.

I love you,lol. Really I finally feel like someone understand where I am coming from. Thats what i am aiming for- for my son to be nice- decent. I would like some in return, for people to be nice and it seems like that is asking for too much because "kids need to be kids" while mommy and daddy are out having a good time. I certainly want my son to understand that he needs to be just and kind and if he is not being treated that way and adults approve- why would he continue to view the world as a place worth being participating in.

[TheStruggle4Sanity]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama

I just don't see why you would quote me and suggest I am apathetic and jaded or suggest I don't stand up for my kid. And of course I want every person in the world to treat my son fairly and justly. But that simply won't happen.

What we CAN do is help them navigate the INEVITABLE bumps and bruises they incure along the way. And packing up your kid and leaving each time you think something isn't going his way won't help him at all.

Like everything it is a balance-helping your kid to learn to help himself, and being ready to step in when you sense he doesn't have the tools or ability to figure it out. IMO the OP is lacking this balance. Life is unfair sometimes. No we don't have to endlessly remind our kids of that fact, but they will experience it and we do need to help them work through the unfairness without the "I am taking my toys and going home!!" attitude.

The implication in the OP seems to be that she and her husband are doing their parenting perfectly in order to raise an ambassador to the world while the rest of us raise little heathens that hurt her kid. And I too would love to hear her opinion of what is running wild. But alas, this is her only post on MDC.

I appreciate that you " I want every person in the world to treat my son fairly and justly. But that simply won't happen."because that is how i feel, my post is what to do when your kid is being treated unjustly, repeatedly, the parents know and still do nothing.

"And packing up your kid and leaving each time you think something isn't going his way won't help him at all." I dont know what you are suggesting... that I let him get verbally abused, and bullied- i dont see how it WILL help him to incur such injustice while mom just sits there.

"Like everything it is a balance-helping your kid to learn to help himself, and being ready to step in when you sense he doesn't have the tools or ability to figure it out. IMO the OP is lacking this balance." I have looked up your abreviations, but ill assume this is about me- it has the same tone. Those are just unfounded judgment calls- not very productive. My son of course has learned to help himself, he navigates with ease around children who don't act maliciously. He interacts well with others, and usually takes a leadership role on the playground, yet is gentle enough to be a "perfect" play date for the autistic child that lives in our building, not getting angry or upset at his behaviors because he understands that Sam is special. The reason for this thread is because I sensed he didnt have the tools or ability to figure it out when we would tell me hes upset because hes said hello and smiled yet Niko doesn't look at him and is walking in circles to avoid eye contact, and refused to say hello.

"Life is unfair sometimes. No we don't have to endlessly remind our kids of that fact, but they will experience it and we do need to help them work through the unfairness without the "I am taking my toys and going home!!" attitude." In all honesty I tried to address the unfairness(snatching toys, not sharing) to my son, basically lying because the kids 4 and he does share when he wants too/feels like it but I've never left because something was unfair in regards to toys and such. I've left when it becomes bullying- malicious when the kid gives dirty looks, engages my kid so that he can turn away- and its brought to the parents attention and nothings done. I think thats unfair, bullying, and something I dont want to encourage my kid to put up with; thats what i've told him when we've left- If someone is being mean to you, and wont stop you dont keep playing with them- find another friend-someone whos going to be nice- I dont see that as being walking out with his toys because its not going his way- that shouldnt be anyones way.

"The implication in the OP seems to be that she and her husband are doing their parenting perfectly in order to raise an ambassador to the world while the rest of us raise little heathens that hurt her kid. And I too would love to hear her opinion of what is running wild. But alas, this is her only post on MDC."

The reason why i described how my husband and i enter act with our child is because if your going to give me advice- which is what i am asking for- you should probably know how we go about things- maybe there is an error in what we are doing. It wasnt to prove my great parenting or my superiority- i did so that more experienced mothers could easily detect ideals that will hinder my goals in parenting. One nice lady already pointed out that want always positive interactions is impossible making the negative ones experience seem harsher- great- now i realize i should start focusing on how to guide my son through negative situations, since most of my time is spent making positive one; I appreciated this.

I described the parents non involvement because their non involvement is a fact and is causing my child to get hurt. It make sense to assume that, if an adult is watched their kid and see them being malicious/bullying, then maybe they would put a stop to it. So again, I think them ignoring they kid is directly related to my kid getting hurt. If thats your philosophy- to let your kid be unattended even if it hurts someone else- then - yeah i dont like your philosophy it hurts other people and i do think your kids a heathen if he/she is allowed to be disrespectful, mean, uncivil all because they "need to be a kid"- thats a selfish credo to have if it comes at the expense of others childhood.

What i meant by running wild is just that.. running around without any idea of how to behave... being completely untamed having no respect for adults, or other children; acting with violence both verbal and physical. Kids running around playing is something different to me- i though in the context of my post that wouldn't be misunderstood but my apologies everyone- i was pretty distressed and sleepy when i wrote this.

As for not getting back sooner, I was busy writing a paper for my class, the 3rd to last before my degree- i needed to finish. I write the school part for the mommy that said i spent too much time learning about parenting and not enough time letting my kid be a kid. I do, i spend a lot of time reading, but not nearly as much time as i spend watching my son be a kid thats why I was away- i have a tight schedule :]

[oaktreemama]

I think most people agree that if running wild means knocking people over, hurting other kids, pushing, hitting, etc yeah that is unacceptable. Glad you came back and clarified.