testing and partner reluctance

[VisionaryMom]

Are there any at-home tests we can use for DS? I know this sound bizarre, but my husband has a significant reluctance to the idea of giftedness. (I can give you my pop psychology reasons, but I'm not sure they're necessary.) My husband is really bright. He had his IQ tested as a child as part of a school assessment, and his IQ is in the low 130s. I don't think his resistance is that sort of dislike of giftedness that I often hear and feel. Instead he's just afraid of pushing DS and making him an outcast. (For the most part, DH was fine in school and at work. I have had much more significant social problems.)

I'm in tears right now. DS is crying about now wanting to go to school. This is only his 3rd week, though school has been in session for about 9 weeks. He said that it's too long just to do nothing and that he'd rather be at home. He was explaining what they do, and I've seen what he brings home. I'm not kidding when I say that he was doing this stuff at age 2.

While on the one hand, DH says that he feels it's wrong to send DS to a school to "wait" while the other kids catch up to him, otoh, he feels that the purpose of kindergarten isn't to learn anything. I spend countless hours as a child sitting in classrooms that offered nothing for me, and I can't stand the thought of doing that to DS, even for the rest of this school year.

Besides, DH keeps saying that we're not sure that DS is gifted because though he can do problems I pulled from an old algebra text of mine, he does not have his $@!& arithmetic tables memorized. He still has to think for a few seconds, so DH (and I'm afraid DS' teacher as well) will view that as counter-indicative of what he can do. So I'm thinking that if I could administer a test at home (so there's no pressure), then I could use it to convince DH and then we could talk about addressing school and/or private testing.

[moominmamma]

What would your aim be in using such a test? Would knowing that your ds is gifted change your dh's beliefs about the value of school? From what little you wrote it's hard to see why any of the objections your dh has to alternative educational programs would magically vanish if your ds was designated officially gifted. He's already said that KG isn't really about learning academics.

I spent a long 18 months gradually convincing my dh that home schooling made sense for our eldest and it had little to do with her giftedness. It was a process of showing him how here social needs could be more than met without school, how she could take on enrichment learning that wouldn't fit into her life if she were in school, how wonderfully and yet asynchronously she could learn without school, how "normal" and "successful" older homeschoolers tended to be and how happy our dd was without school.

Personally I would put the emphasis on your ds's right-now happiness, on what makes him thrive, engages him, brings him to life. Draw his dad's attention to that.

Miranda

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

What would your aim be in using such a test? Would knowing that your ds is gifted change your dh's beliefs about the value of school? From what little you wrote it's hard to see why any of the objections your dh has to alternative educational programs would magically vanish if your ds was designated officially gifted. He's already said that KG isn't really about learning academics.

DH has some concerns that DS isn't actually gifted - that he's average, but we're enamored with him (as his parents). I disagree about K being about academics. I don't think it should be heavy on academic subjects, but neither do I think it makes sense that it's only for learning to raise your hand before speaking or standing in line for the bathroom. So I'm prepared to have that argument with DH, but I really need something more than my own gut feeling. DH is a systems architect with a math degree. He responds to numbers & logic.

Originally Posted by moominmamma

Personally I would put the emphasis on your ds's right-now happiness, on what makes him thrive, engages him, brings him to life. Draw his dad's attention to that.

We provide wonderful enrichment for DS at home, but that doesn't change the fact that he's currently in school. DS being in school is the best decision for our family as a whole right now. I'm not convinced that DS being in *this* school is best, but it's what we have.

If we're going to have him in this school system, then we have to try to make things work where we are. I think there are some wonderful things about this school. DS seems to love the art teacher, for example. (Of course they're talking about spatial relationships between objects in art, which appeals to his math brain.)

DH, unlike me, has no problem saying that sometimes you're not happy, and you should suck it up and deal. He wouldn't want that forever, but he would have no problem saying that if DS is miserable in kindergarten, it's not a long-term problem, so talking about DS' happiness level won't get my anywhere with DH.

[loraxc]

I don't know of any at-home IQ test, but there are some achievement tests you can do at home. They may help bolster your case. Here is one:

https://eprcontent.k12.com/placement...angarts_2.html

Can you ask the district to test? What would happen if he did test gifted?

[Roar]

To answer the initial question, no there are not good IQ tests you can use at home. There are some achievement testing options and those may actually be more helpful or persuasive. http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/...es/010499b.htm Really though I don't think testing is probably going to be the most effective way to handle this situation. It sounds instead like more discussions about your son's happiness and other educational options would be a better place to focus.

If you want some piece of evidence to introduce into the conversation maybe it would be helpful to Google for your state standards of what students should know at the end of kindergarten, first grade, etc. It may help your partner to see where your son is relative to those standards.

[loraxc]

double post

[VisionaryMom]

Thanks for the assessment links. I will check them out.

Roar, we have looked at state standards, and DS knows roughly 85% of what the kids are supposed to know by the end of Gr 3. By comparison, 3YO DD meets or exceeds many of the benchmarks for 1st grade. We are in a state that probably has lower standards compared to other states, so I'd imagine they would probably be a grade or so back in other states. DH has looked at the lists, but they're very difficult for him to accept.

I don't want it to come across that DH doesn't care about the kids' happiness because that's not the case. I just think he struggles more with this than I do. He is 1 of 5 children. One is special needs. Of the others, 3 have IQs in the 130s and 1 in the 150s. MIL was awful when DH was a child at allowing the sister w/ the highest IQ to talk about how much smarter she was than her siblings. It's resulted in DH really shutting down when it comes to these discussions and why I'm seeking out something with numbers. He accepts numbers in a very matter-of-fact way.

[beanma]

What is your ds's teacher saying if anything? I think if you think she's receptive I might have a conversation with her to begin with. You could mention that you think your ds is not as challenged as he'd like to be. It sounds like that may be the main part of why he's unhappy at school right now. If you can get her interested in meeting him where he is she may mention something to you (perhaps suggesting testing) and in turn you could mention that to your DH.

I do agree that K is not really about academics, but it's certainly not about raising your hand and standing in line. For a lot of kids it's more about learning to be together, especially if they haven't been to preschool, and really getting a handle on some social skills—learning to share, take turns, make friends, be kind, etc.

[loraxc]

Yes--what exactly does your DS say about school? Can you tease it out with him more? We had a hard K year, and some of it was about academics, but that wasn't all. Has he been to preschool, and how did he like it?

I think an actual test could be more convincing to your partner than looking at the standards (which often do sound very low). Those K-12 ones seem pretty good to me, and from what I've heard, they underassess (that is, they tend to place kids lower rather than higher).

[eepster]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I don't think it should be heavy on academic subjects, but neither do I think it makes sense that it's only for learning to raise your hand before speaking or standing in line for the bathroom.

A completely non-academic kindergarten might be perfectly fine for your DS. The issue arises when there are academics being taught, but they are significantly outside the students instructional level.

[straighthaircurly]

Other posters on mothering directed me to this website. Tons of great articles and resources. Dr. Ruf happens to be local for me and I actually was teaching in the 90's at the same school her very gifted son attended. http://www.educationaloptions.com/

Dr. Ruf recently created this online assessment. It was very useful for me to decide if we should have DS given a full workup. It costs $60, is based on your observations of the child throughout the years. It does not test IQ but will give you an estimated range of IQ as well as a summary of strengths/weaknesses, school options that work best for that level of giftedness. The better records you kept of milestones, the more accurate the assessment will be.
http://www.talentigniter.com/

Sounds like your DH needs to do some reading about the problems that can arise for gifted children who are left bored in the classroom. Fortunately for me, DH was a child who was failed by the school system and his parents. No one ever tapped into his capabilities. It took him until his 40's to realize his high intelligence and to start living up to his true learning potential. So he is extremely supportive of everything I do with DS and pushing for differentiation in the classroom.

As for your DH's concern about your DS not fitting in...regardless, other kids are going to figure out that your DS thinks and processes info differently. Better to build DS's confidence as well as teach him early that it doesn't make him "better" than other kids, just different.The K teacher for DS was great. She taught the kids in her class that not everything in her class would be equal, but that it would be fair. She said that everyone has different needs and that she will be fair in making sure everyone gets what they need to do their best learning.

In K, I communicated at least weekly with the teacher, made easier by volunteering in the classroom regularly. Open up a dialogue.

[Marimami]

Originally Posted by eepster

A completely non-academic kindergarten might be perfectly fine for your DS. The issue arises when there are academics being taught, but they are significantly outside the students instructional level.

I absolutely agree with this. Many of our problems began in pre-K when the school started introducing worksheets and such (just 1 of many factors). I hadn't expected it at all from this school, and it contributed to the unfortunate year we had. Same school had a very play-based preschool, and I felt a bit side-swiped when the worksheets started popping up in the pre-K/K combined classroom. I heard some parents say that they didn't think there were many, but in my opinion, any worksheets in pre-K are too many. So, I clearly just had a very different opinion about school, which is why we moved on.

We homeschool now, and DD spent most of her K year learning about birth. It was her obsession. Humans. Mammals. Birds. You name it, we learned about it. We did very little "real" learning. Yet, she still managed to pick up all kinds of skills and knowledge last year.

She's technically a first grader now, but her skills are all over the place. At this point, she wouldn't fit into a first grade classroom at all. It's much easier to work with her asynchronous abilities at home.

OP, I recall your posts at the beginning of the year with your plans for homeschooling. It sounds like you now have switched to schooling for family reasons. I say this very gently because I can hear the eagerness in your posts to find the right solution for DS. But, maybe you just need to step back a bit for now. If I recall, you had a very well-structured plan for homeschooling, particularly for math. For whatever reasons, that didn't work out for your family so now you are facing these school issues. I know that my DD often picks up on my worries and concerns and projects them as her own. It just seems that your focus has changed very much in a short time, and he might be picking up on this. I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say other than maybe everyone just needs some more time to acclimate to the change before making another one.

Good luck in finding the right solution! I know how stressful this is--I was a wreck when we were deciding whether to pull DD out of school or not. These are tough issues!

Holli

[joensally]

Gently, gently, gently said...but DS is not DH, and DS is not living DH's experience. DS is an individual, with needs unique to him and the great good fortune of having loving, attentive parents who want both children to have healthy self-esteem and to grow into whoever they are as individuals. Your DS is gifted and his current situation isn't a fit right now. Denying his gifts and differences aren't going to nullify them, and I don't see any value in a child his age having to suck it up when there are options.

As others have posted, start with his teacher. It can take teachers a while from the time they notice stuff to implement a plan or speak to parents - she may already see it and have ideas. Differentiation doesn't have to look like acceleration down the same old well-worn path. It can include self-directed learning, inquiry based learning, project-based learning etc etc.

You might enjoy this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Call-Brillianc...8716028&sr=8-1

It sits on my bedside table and I randomly read chapters every so often, so I don't have a holistic sense of the book. But I read it when I need to bolster my courage to be ok going down a non-traditional path. We're in school now, but we're certainly doing it differently.

[LittleBattleAxe]

I was the parent who was very, very reluctant to allow my children to be tested for gifted services. I had, and have, a whole big slop of baggage having to do with labeling children and in particular, the gifted label. FWIW, it has made virtually no difference whatsoever in how one child is schooled, and it has made a great deal of difference in how the other is schooled (2 children are designated gifted). I still struggle with issues related to giftedness and how those children are perceived in schools, but *I* own the struggles, not my children.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Marimami

I absolutely agree with this. Many of our problems began in pre-K when the school started introducing worksheets and such (just 1 of many factors).
...
OP, I recall your posts at the beginning of the year with your plans for homeschooling. It sounds like you now have switched to schooling for family reasons. I say this very gently because I can hear the eagerness in your posts to find the right solution for DS. But, maybe you just need to step back a bit for now. If I recall, you had a very well-structured plan for homeschooling, particularly for math. For whatever reasons, that didn't work out for your family so now you are facing these school issues.

I am different from many parents here in that I believe in rigorous academics. I don't know exactly how a play-based K looks, but I don't think it's something I would want. Even if I did, it's not an option at this moment. This is the only school choice for us right now.

Yes, we were homeschooling, but the move to schooling had nothing to do with how homeschooling was going. There were a host of other factors that led us to the decision. I know we're coming into this late, and I'm afraid of waiting too long and DS becoming labeled a distraction.

Originally Posted by joensally

Gently, gently, gently said...but DS is not DH, and DS is not living DH's experience. DS is an individual, with needs unique to him and the great good fortune of having loving, attentive parents who want both children to have healthy self-esteem and to grow into whoever they are as individuals. Your DS is gifted and his current situation isn't a fit right now. Denying his gifts and differences aren't going to nullify them, and I don't see any value in a child his age having to suck it up when there are options.

I completely agree and have made this argument to DH. MIL used to have this editorial column hanging on her fridge that was called "Ode to Mediocrity" about how wonderful it was when people just wanted "average" kids and not "smart" ones. So that was the atmosphere DH experienced, and he believed for a long time (until well into adulthood) that he and his siblings were of average intelligence despite all evidence to the contrary.

We did discuss all of this again wrt to DS. He agrees that we should speak to his teacher and is sort of coming around on the idea that DS shouldn't be asked to just sit around for an hour of math everyday when he's well beyond the work.

Originally Posted by joensally

As others have posted, start with his teacher. It can take teachers a while from the time they notice stuff to implement a plan or speak to parents - she may already see it and have ideas. Differentiation doesn't have to look like acceleration down the same old well-worn path. It can include self-directed learning, inquiry based learning, project-based learning etc etc.

Well, I did get a piece of the puzzle today. (Apparently DS' teacher send home work only every few weeks! We got tons today.) It seems that his teacher likes making little saddle-stitch books. They also have lots of drawings with one sentence, "I like my dog" with DS' drawing of our dog. Then there were these math sheets that required cutting and pasting. DS didn't do the numbers in order. So there were 10 blanks. He put 8 in the 8th spot, but he didn't complete it. He still had 4 numbers that he didn't have time to cut. (He said his teacher said he doesn't "have speed.") So I'm thinking that she saw his odd choices in doing the numbers "out of order" and maybe assumes he can't count.

Apparently she also has concerns that DS doesn't write quickly enough. One sheet was just him writing the words "here" and "like" repeatedly. So I'm emailing her to ask for a meeting next week. I need to determine if his writing speed is indeed a problem because he started crying talking about her telling him that he's not speedy. He kept talking about this kid named Will and that his teacher said even Will is speedy. DS said, "well, he only has 4 letters in his name, and I have 6!" So I don't know if his teacher actually said that or how that all played out, but he has been crying every morning. I suppose the speed issue is why.