Logical consequence for drawing on walls

[EarthMamaToBe]

So the 5 year old I keep drew ALL over a wall with a pen. I am having him clean it but he is making no progress with all the whining and not really trying. How long should I expect him to work on it?

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I'm mean... at five years old, I'd make him work on it for a while. I'd ignore the whining, and make him spend another 10-15 minutes on trying to get it off... at least in one spot so he can see how hard it's going to be. Don't set a timer, just tell him you will wait til some of the ink comes off the wall before you let him take a break. If you set a time, he will just dilly dally til the timer goes off.

If he can get some of it off, I'd give him a break and have him get back to work on it later. If it's just not coming off at all, I'd give up on making him work at it.

If it's bad enough, you can have his parents come back this weekend and help you clean it. He's five.. he knows he's not allowed to write on someone else's wall. If he were two, I'd say you should have been watching him closer... but, at five, we assume he can handle having a pen without writing on your walls.

[ssh]

I can't think of anything that would take ink off a wall that I'd let my almost 5 year old touch. I wouldn't make her clean it, I might have her watch me clean it. I would ask her where she draws with pens and remind her drawing elsewhere is a bad idea. The messes she can help clean are ones that can be picked up or wiped up. Scrubbing walls is for older people who can safely use cleansers. On principal, I don't ever force helping because I don't want to undermine my DDs natural desire to help and participate.

If a child can't be trusted to remember to draw on paper with a pen, the pens should be out of reach. That's as far as we go with logical consequences "If you can't use something safely, you can't use it.". My DD's actually really good with using pens, paint, glue, scissors, glitter glue and other messy things appropriately, probably because using things appropriately means unlimited access.

[EarthMamaToBe]

It's scrubable paint so the ink WILL come off with a little effort and a magic eraser. He is an EXTREMELY bright child who snuck the pen out of a drawer and took it to bed with him and drew on the wall, two throw pillows and a comforter.

His mother took away his computer time but did not stick with it for even one night so thus far there have been NO consequences.

[GoBecGo]

i would tell him he will clean until it is cleaned, and i would have him load the washer with the textiles he drew on. and while he's doing it i would try to talk about what motivated him to do it. i would also remove pens from drawers and put everything up high - major hassle i know, i had to do it for dd1 when she was 3. for her it was a territorial thing.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by EarthMamaToBe

It's scrubable paint so the ink WILL come off with a little effort and a magic eraser. He is an EXTREMELY bright child who snuck the pen out of a drawer and took it to bed with him and drew on the wall, two throw pillows and a comforter.

His mother took away his computer time but did not stick with it for even one night so thus far there have been NO consequences.

I wouldn't let my almost 5 year old any where near a magic eraser. That's what we use to clean off ink too. We don't do punishment, so our DD doesn't sneak. I know you can't control that, but when kids have an adversarial relationship with adults because of punishments and threats you get more misbehavior that is retaliation because the kid's angry. I'd still try to foster a co-operative relationship with the child even though his parents choose the more oppositional type. I taught for 5 years and kids can respond really well to being treated with respect and an expectation of co-operation regardless or what they usually expect from adults.

[EarthMamaToBe]

(Meant to quote SSH)

Why? There is nothing dangerous about a magic eraser.

I guess I don't understand why cleaning up your own mess is not a logical consequence for making a mess. What does he learn if I clean it up?

As far as sneaking he has access to pens and crayons and such but I call it sneaking b/c he took it to bed with him which he knows is not allowed.

[ssh]

The magic eraser box says "CAUTION:keep out of reach of children...." in red letters. I let my DD dust, sweep, clean stuff with water, vinegar or baking soda ....... not chemicals or abrasives. The idea that a person 'needs' to learn from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm. He's already learned that you get annoyed or angry if he draws on the wall and he'll notice it has to be cleaned up whether he actually does it or not. He's also lost some of the trust you have in him. Kids notice that stuff, and those are the real natural consequences. A respectful, sincere "Please don't write on my walls. I don't like cleaning up extra stuff. It's a bad idea. Write on paper." will work. People don't have to be made to feel bad to get the idea that something is a bad choice and they shouldn't do it.

[hakeber]

I have Benjamin clean up his own messes when he has done stuff like this. He has been washing his doodles off our walls since he was about two and a half (with help). If it doesn't come off he forfeits his pocket money towards paying for a can of touch up paint and he helps me paint over the mess (as he did when we left our last house and after moving furniture discovered he had drawn a mural under his bed in permanent marker he had taken from my school bag, at the age of 4.5)

His own money didn't cover much (about 2%), but he gets about the equivalent of 25-50 US cents a week for doing extra small chores (apart from the basics of making his bed and keeping his room tidy, like if he helps to fold a load of wash, or rakes the leaves, or takes the trash out every morning on the way to school) so when he had to wipe out his savings, it was a lesson that stuck with him. Things cost money and we can't afford to replace those things whenever he feels destructive.

I believe if he is a child you watch, you should ask his parents to pay for a professional cleaning service, and/or replacement of the items destroyed. If I had left Benjamin with someone and he had done that, I would offer to pay (and then ask Benjamin to pay me back over time.)

And in the future, he doesn't get access to any pens or pencils or get any time in my house unsupervised until _I_ feel comfortable with his impulse control again.

[phathui5]

We have gloves, so I would be comfortable letting a child use a Magic Eraser.

[mamazee]

If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.

[Petie1104]

I think that cleaning up the mess is the logical consequence. If I make a mess I clean it up. If my kid makes a mess, they clean it up, it's logical. A 5 yr. old is perfectly capable of understanding that I am not responsible for cleaning up his messes.

Now, here is where I differ, I help. Basically, we treat others how we want to be treated and if I accidentally make a mess I'd like for someone to help me out, even if it wasn't so accidental it's nice to have someone help me.

[Petie1104]

Originally Posted by mamazee

If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.

I agree. Though I would use a magic eraser while the child is helping by cleaning up with a regular sponge, I wouldn't have them use the magic eraser without the parent's permission.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by ssh

The magic eraser box says "CAUTION:keep out of reach of children...." in red letters. I let my DD dust, sweep, clean stuff with water, vinegar or baking soda ....... not chemicals or abrasives. The idea that a person 'needs' to learn from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm. He's already learned that you get annoyed or angry if he draws on the wall and he'll notice it has to be cleaned up whether he actually does it or not. He's also lost some of the trust you have in him. Kids notice that stuff, and those are the real natural consequences. A respectful, sincere "Please don't write on my walls. I don't like cleaning up extra stuff. It's a bad idea. Write on paper." will work. People don't have to be made to feel bad to get the idea that something is a bad choice and they shouldn't do it.

I get what you're saying, but I do not see why the OP should have to pay with her time or her money to clean up destructive choices of a 5 year old child. He is not a baby. He is capable of donning rubber gloves and getting his own elbow grease into the mix to RECITFY his poor choices and restore justice.

When we make mistakes we should make it up to the harmed person by righting our wrongs, not just feeling bad about it. I don't think it does a child any favors to pretend that guiltiness and shame is enough to make things better. I think it's vital they see what actions they can take to make it right. Ideally they are a part of finding that solution, but sometimes they need a little help finding an appropriate action to resolve the consequences of their poor choices, ya know?

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by mamazee

If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.

Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by hakeber

Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.

They do work well at cleaning walls, and cleaning fingerprints off appliances. And lots of things.

[Petie1104]

They are an abrasive type of sponge. Work wonders to take ink and nastiness off almost anything, but from what I understand they use a pretty alkaline mix to do this. Some kids have reactions to them such as rashes and such on their hands, and if they touch their faces with it it can cause a rash there too.

[Mommel]

Originally Posted by hakeber

Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.

Email me your new addy and I will send you one, sis. <3

[Petie1104]

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar...raser-burn.htm

This explains it and says that the title "chemical burns" is misleading as there is no evidence of it being the alkalinity that caused it, but there are photos showing what can happen with the magic eraser.

[hakeber]

oh my We've always just used dish soap and regular sponges here...probably why the ink never comes out so well.