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| Originally posted by Ilaria Since my first reply, I looked at the links he provides and they are all very strongly anti-circumcision. |
While I agree that parents don't have the right to alter a baby's appearance for cosmetic reasons - THEY STILL DO! They have "the right." It's a simple (sad) fact.
(Sadly, most parents are not given any information 
- particularly con - by the OB or whoever does the circ.)
| He stated that it's a parents right to make a decision to have a man circumcised. |
| Regretably, parents can choose to do this. Nobody can stop them |
| Originally posted by Tanibani Frank, While I agree that parents don't have the right to alter a baby's appearance for cosmetic reasons - THEY STILL DO! They have "the right." It's a simple (sad) fact.Regretably, parents can choose to do this. Nobody can stop them. |
| Originally posted by Frankly Speaking He stated that it's a parents right to make a decision to have a man circumcised. That is not a very popular opinion here. It totally ignores the rights of the victim and his rights to not have his genitals modified to someone else's wishes. In fact, the parents do not have a right and the reason it is allowed is that those who have a responsibility to uphold the law choose to ignore it. It reminds me of once when I was pulled over for speeding. I asked the trooper why he didn't get those who were passing me. He asked me "Have you ever gone fishing?" I replied "Yes." and he asked "Did you catch all of the fish?" In this case, those responsible for catching the fish aren't even going fishing. Frank |
| Originally posted by Frankly Speaking (1.) I very well may offend you too. You have, but I'll keep trying to reach out. (2.) Unfortunately, everyone is asleep at the switch on this issue. That is no excuse for non-action. You haven't answered my question here; who do you believe is responsible for the well-being of children, if not the parents? (3.) When the medical profession has been saying the risks of the procedure out weigh any unproven benefits and the procedure is cosmetic, the medical profession has a responsibility to step up to the plate. Too many children have died from this useless procedure for it to continue. The medical profession has been irresponsible and continues to be so for more than 30 years and counting. There is no other medical procedure the profession will allow on normal healthy organs for appearance only and solely on the request and demand of the parent. The truth is, MANY in the medical profession have been saying it is unecessary and harmful. Agreement among them is not 100%. The not-yet-addressed-issue is liability; would you support the lawsuits of thousands of doctors who initially believed they were doing the right thing...and came around to admitting circumcision is inappropriate? When a doc reverses his stance, he has lots to lose. (Picture the witness stand, prosecuting counsel asks the doc, "So, you NOW believe circumcision is WRONG?" Dr. "Yes. I've changed my policy, based on information new to me, and long, careful thought. It's a procedure I did. I no longer do them, and believe it's a violation of a child's constitutional right to wholeness." Attorney: "Fine. You did a procedure for years that you now believe is a violation of childrens' rights. I rest my case." -- The MD loses his shirt, his livlihood, and his practice. -- Your cause 'wins'. -- We all lose the benefits of a practicing physician who --according to your requirements-- must commit financial and professional suicide to be considered 'correct'. -- Where's the incentive to ask parents to be better informed? (4.) Would you say the same thing about an Ethiopian parent who wanted their daughter's clitoral hood and labia removed? Why not? Isn't that sexist and discriminatory? How can you justify different treatment of the two sexes? Keep in mind that currently we do not perform FGM here in the USA. It IS sexist and discriminatory that we continue to do male circs (personally, I do not support the practice) and I don't justify different treatment of the two sexes. It's an unfortunate fact of the current reality. FGM is now, (according to Hanny-Lightfoot-Klien's website) being performed by nurses in hospital in Africa. The infection and dirty-razor issue is being eliminated: isn't it interesting that the point was missed there about the child's need for an intact body? Clearly, the cultural ideas about female purity and bloodlines are more important to those who continue the practice. Surprises the heck out of me! However, I am speaking of what's currently practiced here. -- but the rate of male circs here is falling steadily. When parents stop asking for a procedure, it will die a long-overdue-death. (5.) If you continue to offer and support genital modification of males, we simply don't agree. It is purely wrong. I didn't continue to offer it....never have. I don't support it. I also don't speak for all doctors or nurses....and this isn't addressing my question, which is an important one: in the dialogue, it seems best to find that middle ground of agreement. When a child arrives in the OR with a broken leg, I don't refuse to assist in treatment because the parents had him circumcised. Maybe I don't understand your point....you're not suggesting this are you? You also ignore the impact of the media: last time I picked up a PARENTS Magazine, the issue of circumcision was not addressed as strongly as I'd hoped. Why is that, I wonder? (6.) It takes maturity, compassion and skill to educate the parent about the wrongness of purely cosmetic genital modification that is painful, disabling and a violation of a human being's constitutional rights. It takes a moment to tell a parent you don't do those things to an innocent being who can't speak for himself. Altering the genitals of a man purely because the parent is not educated and you won't take the time or effort to educate them is not the best outcome for the child. It is the worst outcome that can possibly be. Frank, you're not addressing the fact that many parents aren't willing to even discuss the ethics involved circumcising their son. Their reactions are all over the place. Some parents aren't willing or ready to hear what has been taken away from them! (if the father is circ'd) --- I still get answers like, "I'm doing it because he must look like his dad, and our sex life has been just fine, thank you very much!" (7.) A cleft palate is a birth defect. A foreskin is not. In the case of a foreskin being a birth defect, it is only a birth defect of being born to the wrong parents. A physcian is not obligated by any law or custom to carve up the genitals of a newborn. Yes, a cleft palate is a birth defect. However, many children don't get the cosmetic benefits of reconstruction since the defect isn't seen as life-threatening. My point being that not all cosmetic surgery performed on children isn't with the incorrect intent or outcome. It's hard to take an 'all or nothing' stance and not think of an exception that 'breaks the rule'. That was my point.The problem becomes how to differentiate the two legally w/o 'legislating' more and more subjective aspects/decisions of parenting? (8.) They are either cowards for being afraid to confront parents who are ignorant or they are greedy and want the cash flow in their practice more than they want to protect a man's constitutional rights. Take your choice!*** There are no other options. Just because they have gone to school and showed up for their job everyday does not mean they deserve respect. Respect is earned by actions and any person who would cut up the genitals of another human being from fear of confrontation or greed has not earned respect. They have earned angst and condemnation. That's what they get here. ***The third choice is this: parents turn away from educational opportunities about circumcision all the time. We confront parents frequently, Frank. Some are willing to hear the facts about circumcision. Sadly, many, many are not. Some are incredibly defensive about the practice, to the point of hostility. They make up their minds, and believe me, when most American women say they think an uncircumcised penis is ugly....parents perceptions go a long ways towards making this a reality, despite offering education to the contrary. I believe it is far more productive to remain in dialogue with the parents (who go outside the practice and have their sons cut), and look for the ways and means to continue the dialogue without alienating them. The first thing we try to do is develop trust. Until a parent trusts us, what we have to say falls on deaf ears. Respectfully, Ocean_Swimmer Frank |
| You haven't answered my question here; who do you believe is responsible for the well-being of children, if not the parents? |
: I'm not allowed to remove the tip of my child's finger because I feel like it....... even if I believed I was being responsible for the well-being of my child. You'd call CPS on me and my child would be taken away. I'm a bit confused by the point you're trying to make.
