Renovating an old house

[momofmine]

We are doing some work on our 100 yr old house, in part because there is a lot that needs to be done and in part because we want to add on some extra space. But everything is related! I feel like we should just move out of the house for three months and let someone come in and do everything all at once. But that's not really possible, I don't think. But all the things that we know we want to do lead to other things. You want to do Z, but you have to do Y first, but you have to do X before you can do Y, and then you have to do A, B, and C before you can do any of it.

And everything leads to something else. For example, we would love to put a second bathroom upstairs where the bedrooms are, but then that leads to the issue that there is likely lead paint under many layers there (it's still the old original plaster upstairs). So, if we are going to be taking out a wall to add a bathroom, we will have to deal with the lead paint issue. I've been feeling like we should do something about the plaster up there anyway because there are places where it is cracked, and I do worry about the lead paint possibility, and so then I think maybe we should just have them come in and rip it out and put up drywall when they do the bathroom. But that would be a HUGE job in all three bedrooms up there. We literally would have to move out, I think.

I just want to move everything out of the house, fix it up, and start all over.

Plus, where do you stop?? We must get a new floor on the first floor once the basement issues are fixed (water, dirt basement, etc), and then I think about the things we want to do in the kitchen, like fixing that up, redoing the cabinets, getting a dishwasher, etc, and I think maybe we should do all of that before we get a brand new floor. Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe I am overthinking all of this? It just feels like there is no easy way to take small steps and do a little at a time.

[zinemama]

You are right. One thing leads to another and there is no easy way to take small steps at a time. Renovating an old house is a long slog and often the things you spend the most on are the things no one ever sees (insulation, rewiring, new roof).

If you can afford to move out and have someone else do it, all at once, I'd do it.

[momofmine]

You know, I really never thought of that until I wrote that out, but I wonder if that actually would be possible. I guess we could stay in an efficiency apt and put all of our stuff in storage. That would probably be really expensive though. Ugh. It seems like so much work. It makes me want to just move and get a house that was built after 1978! My partner does not want to do that though, and thinks we should just stay where we are and chip away at it in small steps. My problem with that is that we are going to refinance our mortgage to do the work, and we need to know now how much we are planning to spend to do everything. So, even if we do it over time, and not all at once, we need to know now what we are going to do.

[Peppermint Leaf]

this is just a thought -- but can you get a "POD" .. and move everything from the upstairs into the POD -- if you have room you can keep it in your driveway and if not they take it somewhere warm and safe until you need it again ... but then to save money could you possibly all camp on the main floor rather than staying in hotel.. until the work is done.

[Cutie Patootie]

I so hear you. We just moved into a 110yo house and wanted to renovate everything before we moved in, but ripping out all the plaster and putting up drywall in all the rooms...$19,000! And before we do the new drywall, we need to do the electricity and heat/air vents in the walls. We still have the original "knob and tube" electric.

That said, if you have the means to move out and and get it all done at once, I say 100% do it. It will save your sanity. PODS are a great suggestion, too. We used them when we moved.

[beanma]

3 months is probably a very optimistic estimate for major additions repairs. We just DIYed a remodel of our kitchen and it took more like 6 months, though granted, that was because we were DIYing and not working on it all day every day. But that's not doing a major addition. We didn't mess with the plumbing or add a new bathroom or anything like that. A neighbor down the street has been putting an addition on their house (not DIY, they've hired it all out as far as I can tell) and it's taken them most of a year. They were in the house the whole time, though, and it's a big addition.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by Peppermint Leaf

this is just a thought -- but can you get a "POD" .. and move everything from the upstairs into the POD -- if you have room you can keep it in your driveway and if not they take it somewhere warm and safe until you need it again ... but then to save money could you possibly all camp on the main floor rather than staying in hotel.. until the work is done.

Yes, a pod is a good idea. I didn't realize that they would also take them elsewhere for you. My partner was not enthusiastic about that idea because we don't have a very big lot, no driveway, etc.

The thing about camping out on the main floor is that there is a ton of work to be done there too. In one of the main rooms on the first floor, at some point previous owners took out the old plaster, but then only put up some really thin paneling. That's it, no insulation or anything. It's rather odd. Just some thin, wood-look paneling. So that room is really cold in the winter, and the room above it is pretty cold in the winter too. So we need to get that out of there and put up drywall. (Actually the contractor suggested just leaving it there and putting the drywall right over the existing paneling, but that does not make any sense to me because there is NO insulation underneath. I honestly don't think he believed me!)

Then we have to get a new floor on the whole first level, which then leads to, what do we do with the stairs? Because right now the front foyer has carpet, which goes all the way up the stairs, so what do we do when we replace the floor on the first level, because we need to do something to the stairs then too. And then the paint on the stair rail is peeling, and it literally comes off in pieces (luckily this is not lead paint, this was painted after 1978, but I wish they had never painted all this wood trim in here!!). So, when it peels off, it floats down and sticks to the floor. I don't want to get a new floor down here until that is taken care of. See what I mean about everything needing 5 other jobs to be done first?

Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie

I so hear you. We just moved into a 110yo house and wanted to renovate everything before we moved in, but ripping out all the plaster and putting up drywall in all the rooms...$19,000! And before we do the new drywall, we need to do the electricity and heat/air vents in the walls. We still have the original "knob and tube" electric.

That said, if you have the means to move out and and get it all done at once, I say 100% do it. It will save your sanity. PODS are a great suggestion, too. We used them when we moved.

Ooh no, knob and tube. We still have remnants of that upstairs. Because we have NO storage in this house, I had the brilliant idea a few years ago that I would get a handyman to come in and put in one of those pull down ladders into the attic so that I could at least have some storage for Rubbermaid bins of winter clothes, etc. When he cut through the ceiling up there, first of all, tons of mouse poop, like inches of it, fell on his head. Which is just nasty, but apparently a normal thing to be in an attic of a 100-year-old farmhouse. I try not to think about this at night. But the other thing is that there were remnants of the old knob and tube electrical, and although we think everything is changed over, we just did not want to mess with it. So, he closed up the hole, and I left well enough alone with the attic!

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by beanma

3 months is probably a very optimistic estimate for major additions repairs. We just DIYed a remodel of our kitchen and it took more like 6 months, though granted, that was because we were DIYing and not working on it all day every day. But that's not doing a major addition. We didn't mess with the plumbing or add a new bathroom or anything like that. A neighbor down the street has been putting an addition on their house (not DIY, they've hired it all out as far as I can tell) and it's taken them most of a year. They were in the house the whole time, though, and it's a big addition.

Wow, yes that's a long time. Oh man, I just want something new and environmentally safe, out on a little piece of land somewhere idyllic....

I also worry about fixing up the house "too" much, given comparable houses nearby, etc, and just the fact that the house is 100 years old. I mean, if we fix it up, will it last another 50 years?

[HeatherAtHome]

We have a 100 year old fixer upper too, even with the dirt basement.

1-I accept (and love!) the fact that we have an old house and I plan on keeping it that way. We don't have plans to gut the interior to make it look new and modern. If I wanted a modern house I would have bought one. Embrace the 'character' of it.

2-I tend to think of doing things in stages. Stage one renovating would be painting the mismatched ugly flooring upstairs all white so that it looks a bit better. Stage 2 (which will happen someday) is putting in all new flooring. Stage one is painting all the bedrooms. Stage two is ripping out the drywall to insulate then put in fresh new drywall that will be smooth and free of cracks.

But before we insulate/put in new drywall upstairs, we should really look into jacking and/or putting in extra supports under certain parts of the house and I swear, a load bearing wall was taken out on the first floor causing a slope on the second. If we replace drywall in bedrooms, new cracks could form so all the other stuff has to be done first. So painting over walls, cracks and all are what's happening NOW to make me happy.

That's one example. There are so many others.

My suggestion? Take things in steps, BUT make sure you don't live with ugly for 20 years thinking you can't make things look nice while you're saving/waiting to do the BIG things. Make things look nice, cheaply while you're waiting to tackle the big stuff.

Oh, and 3-Assume everything will take longer and cost way more than estimated. We're big DIYers and gutting the crapily built/water damaged addition from the 60's has taken us 4 mths and counting. Hoping to have it done by Christmas for a total of 6 mths. And yes, it cost more than we expected! It's only a 12x14' room for pete's sakes! Once we opened up the inner walls, we realized we had to COMPLETELY tear out one wall and lived with a tarp on the side of our house for awhile. Haven't done much on it lately as DH was working overtime.... to pay off unexpected reno cost! Sort of a catch 22. We're on the homestretch now.

I have a blog if you're interested. Here's everything labeled "renovations".

[HeatherAtHome]

Originally Posted by momofmine

Wow, yes that's a long time. Oh man, I just want something new and environmentally safe, out on a little piece of land somewhere idyllic....

I also worry about fixing up the house "too" much, given comparable houses nearby, etc, and just the fact that the house is 100 years old. I mean, if we fix it up, will it last another 50 years?

I know our house is built quite sturdy. Log walls, huge beams in basement etc. They don't make them like that anymore! Our neighbour (who grew up here) said that our house will be around for a good long time. Let's hope.

[anarchamom]

Also just moved into a 100+ yr old farm house in need of repair. Though I admit that after reading these posts, it's in relatively good shape.

I agree that your house if cared for and restored will be around for a long time. Everyone (not necessarily you) always wants to replace wood with synthetic materials as if the wood didn't already do the job for over a hundred years!

I wanted to pass on something that was mentioned to me by our house inspector whom was a great guy and experienced with old houses, renovations, etc. When we first considered buying our house I was totally in the "let's spend whatever we have to to get all of the lead paint out of the house and protect my baby" camp. But after talking to this inspector I feel very differently. His key piece of advice was that if you go full scale lead abatement, bringing in specialists etc, you may never get the air clean in your house again. Well, not without a lot of time and a great deal of money. He said that if you test your air beforehand and then after, you will probably find that you need to hire someone to come in with expensive air purifiers to attempt to get it to the level it was prior.

Since the airborne lead dust is the really dangerous stuff we're going a different way. I will do offsite lead abatement (doors, window, and anything i can remove) and paint over and seal up anything else.

this seemed like really good, practical advice from someone who had nothing to gain from an expensive project like lead abatement.

His other piece of advice was "pay attention to what your children are doing"

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by HeatherAtHome

We have a 100 year old fixer upper too, even with the dirt basement.

1-I accept (and love!) the fact that we have an old house and I plan on keeping it that way. We don't have plans to gut the interior to make it look new and modern. If I wanted a modern house I would have bought one. Embrace the 'character' of it.

Thanks for sharing! While I did feel that way also when we moved in here 9 years ago, the issues have now become health issues more than just embracing charm. Because the floors are not sealed and because there is no moisture barrier in the basement, the moldy, musty smell penetrates the first floor of the house anytime it rains and we get water down there in the dirt basement. It's particularly bad in one room, to the point where I can't even go in that room when it rains, and it is one of the main rooms on the first floor (and there are only three). It cannot be good for us to be breathing this in, and I am allergic to mold and it really bothers me.

We also had an animal living in our basement at some point because things just aren't sealed up down there, and something had found it's way in. Our dog was barking like crazy and finally my husband found a place where we think it had been coming in, and we did our best to block its entrance, and it didn't return.

I'm not going modern, that's for sure, I just want to fix things up and make it so that we can enjoy our house and be healthy. Our health is actually my main concern in all of this.

Originally Posted by anarchamom

Since the airborne lead dust is the really dangerous stuff we're going a different way. I will do offsite lead abatement (doors, window, and anything i can remove) and paint over and seal up anything else.

this seemed like really good, practical advice from someone who had nothing to gain from an expensive project like lead abatement.

His other piece of advice was "pay attention to what your children are doing"

Can you elaborate on this last sentence a bit more? If the airborne dust is the biggest problem, then I am just wondering what this means. Do you mean not eating paint chips?

The contractor that came in here said something similar. He actually didn't mention the air quality, but he did say that they would have to tape off each room with plastic as they did it, and that it's a very big job, and very expensive. And he suggested not removing it but rather just sealing it all in. He wanted to just drywall on top of it, and not disturb it. WHat do you think about that?

At first I thought that seemed like more trouble later down the road, but maybe it is the better thing. I guess that's what I mean when I say that sometimes I just want something new and environmentally safe. Not that I need modern, it's just that the lead paint, etc, that you just can't ever get rid of. Even the foundation of the house was painted at some point, and that is probably lead paint, and it is just chipping off into the soil, running off into the ground, into my garden, etc.

Although I guess that will happen anywhere in the city and it is a fact of the products we have produced and used in the last hundred years.

[HeatherAtHome]

Yes, the health factor would be important!!!

So about your basement/first floor smell issue; are there any vents leading from the basement? Any sort of heating ducts etc? We had an oil furnace in our basement and we got rid of it asap, took out all the ducts and closed up the vents that were in the floor (Stage 1 was covering them with duct tape until DH could get around to taking them out and replacing with wood; stage 2 ) We heat with electric baseboard heaters instead.

Our basement doesn't really leak, but it feels damp and has fieldstone walls. When we had the house inspected before buying last year, the inspector suggested either pouring a concrete floor (something we don't really want to do) or laying sand down to make floor smooth, putting a THICK plastic down on top and then more sand. (Just spent 5 minutes staring out the window thinking of all the things that need to be done in the basement!) Supposedly that would help cut down on the damp factor, but I still worry about the walls...

If the smell really is coming up through the flooring itself, you shouldn't just put new flooring on top, otherwise the smell would go through that too over time. I remember hearing about a special primer/paint that you can use to seal a floor when it is stinky from too many pet accidents. It might not last forever, but it's something worth looking into. Or laying plastic down? would that work?

And then of course, trying to keep as much water from coming in the basement as possible; making sure gutters drain water away from the house, make sure land slopes away from house so water doesn't collect near wall, there's a paint you can use to seal basement walls to keep out moisture (drylock?) and if all else fails, a dehumidifier might be the answer. I know what you mean about one thing needing to be done to fix another. It's the story of my life here. Year one and we're still ok with it. If we're still at this point by year 9, I might go crazy!

Seeing we're doing most of the work ourselves (only hired an electrician so far) what I find exhausting is having to become a "specialist" at everything. All the reading and research that goes into learning how to do things properly... I could do without it.

[Caneel]

Originally Posted by anarchamom

I wanted to pass on something that was mentioned to me by our house inspector whom was a great guy and experienced with old houses, renovations, etc. When we first considered buying our house I was totally in the "let's spend whatever we have to to get all of the lead paint out of the house and protect my baby" camp. But after talking to this inspector I feel very differently. His key piece of advice was that if you go full scale lead abatement, bringing in specialists etc, you may never get the air clean in your house again. Well, not without a lot of time and a great deal of money. He said that if you test your air beforehand and then after, you will probably find that you need to hire someone to come in with expensive air purifiers to attempt to get it to the level it was prior.

Since the airborne lead dust is the really dangerous stuff we're going a different way. I will do offsite lead abatement (doors, window, and anything i can remove) and paint over and seal up anything else.

this seemed like really good, practical advice from someone who had nothing to gain from an expensive project like lead abatement.

His other piece of advice was "pay attention to what your children are doing"

We live in a nearly 100 year old house and lead was also a concern of mine. Over the years, we talked to several abatement contractors we know through work and they all had the same opinion - it was better to seal it up then sand/scrape it off because of the dust issue never really going away. These were companies we were working with so they had no reason to lie or try to turn down business, meaning I had no reason to doubt their advice.

We did have the air test done (in conjunction with an asbestos removal) and while I don't remember the reading, it was at the very bottom of the measurement scale.

As far as the kids go, that was the same advice my doctor gave us - watch what they put in their mouth. He said every single lead case he has seen over 20+ years was kids chewing on inappropriate objects (stair tread and window stills especially. Seriously, who would let their child do that?!?!) or eating paint chips.

With a few exceptions (the bathroom being one due to a large amount of water damage) we put drywall right over top of the old plaster walls.

[Cutie Patootie]

Originally Posted by momofmine

Thanks for sharing! While I did feel that way also when we moved in here 9 years ago, the issues have now become health issues more than just embracing charm. Because the floors are not sealed and because there is no moisture barrier in the basement, the moldy, musty smell penetrates the first floor of the house anytime it rains and we get water down there in the dirt basement. It's particularly bad in one room, to the point where I can't even go in that room when it rains, and it is one of the main rooms on the first floor (and there are only three). It cannot be good for us to be breathing this in, and I am allergic to mold and it really bothers me.

We also had an animal living in our basement at some point because things just aren't sealed up down there, and something had found it's way in. Our dog was barking like crazy and finally my husband found a place where we think it had been coming in, and we did our best to block its entrance, and it didn't return.

I'm not going modern, that's for sure, I just want to fix things up and make it so that we can enjoy our house and be healthy. Our health is actually my main concern in all of this.

Same here. We love the old charm of the house, but some things just need to be updated to keep the house safe and livable for our family. The walls are a must. Most of our walls upstairs are covered in wallpaper, but you can see the plaster cracks bowing up underneath. We did have a plasterer in to give us his thoughts, but that made the $19,000 for a whole house of drywall look like penny change. LOL So much for that idea.

Our basement is not sealed either. Actually half of it is dirt and half of that isn't even accessible unless you crawl on your stomach in the dirt floor crawlspace. That part is directly under the kitchen and sunroom, so it makes it hard to renovate because it's nearly impossible to do plumbing, electric and gas lines under that section.
We have mold as well. We have a window over by the dirt section that water runs through when it rains. I can't even go down there after it has rained. We had someone look at it and it seems we just need to fill in that window space and then spray a bleach solution on the walls to kill the spores that are there. As far as I know, we have no animals living down there. Actually, so totally weird, but we don't have a bug one in this house. Since we moved in, I haven't seen a spider or any other "house" bug. Isn't that strange? I mean, I've actually searched. LOL

We should start a 100yo house support group. I'd love to see pictures of your houses. Ours was built in 1910. It is 2380sq ft with 4-5 bedrooms upstairs and a sunroom, dining room, kitchen and loooooooong living room downstairs...and our moldy basement. :eyeroll We have a hilarious bathroom in the closet under the stairs on the main floor. No sink, because one won't fit and your knees hit the door when seated. 1/2 bath upstairs and a full bath upstairs. We have *no* storage. Must have been nice back then without all this stuff! Our closet are super skinny. We have to hang our clothes sideways. There is a two-car garage in the back. It used to be a carriage house but was added on to become the garage.

[SunRise]

Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie

Same here. We love the old charm of the house, but some things just need to be updated to keep the house safe and livable for our family. The walls are a must. Most of our walls upstairs are covered in wallpaper, but you can see the plaster cracks bowing up underneath. We did have a plasterer in to give us his thoughts, but that made the $19,000 for a whole house of drywall look like penny change. LOL So much for that idea.

Our basement is not sealed either. Actually half of it is dirt and half of that isn't even accessible unless you crawl on your stomach in the dirt floor crawlspace. That part is directly under the kitchen and sunroom, so it makes it hard to renovate because it's nearly impossible to do plumbing, electric and gas lines under that section.
We have mold as well. We have a window over by the dirt section that water runs through when it rains. I can't even go down there after it has rained. We had someone look at it and it seems we just need to fill in that window space and then spray a bleach solution on the walls to kill the spores that are there. As far as I know, we have no animals living down there. Actually, so totally weird, but we don't have a bug one in this house. Since we moved in, I haven't seen a spider or any other "house" bug. Isn't that strange? I mean, I've actually searched. LOL

We should start a 100yo house support group. I'd love to see pictures of your houses. Ours was built in 1910. It is 2380sq ft with 4-5 bedrooms upstairs and a sunroom, dining room, kitchen and loooooooong living room downstairs...and our moldy basement. :eyeroll We have a hilarious bathroom in the closet under the stairs on the main floor. No sink, because one won't fit and your knees hit the door when seated. 1/2 bath upstairs and a full bath upstairs. We have *no* storage. Must have been nice back then without all this stuff! Our closet are super skinny. We have to hang our clothes sideways. There is a two-car garage in the back. It used to be a carriage house but was added on to become the garage.

I read this thread this am and came back to say this (bolded part!)

I agree / like with what HeatherAtHome says about loving your home and doing small things to enjoy it while you save for the bigger projects.

HeatherAtHome - I checked out your blog! Good work. I'm going to creat an account too!

I bought my house last year. Built in 1910. 1799 sq, small urban city / university area.
I had insulation blown in the attic floor / bedroom ceilings and porch overhangs. There is no insulation in the walls yet, but what I have done seems to have helped immensely.
I also had chimney work done last fall as well.

The wiring in my house is a problem too, but not as old as what the PP's have said. Many three prong covers over top of old wiring / non-grounded wiring. Instead of rewiring the whole house at once I am doing a few plugs at a time or in the case of my bathroom, which was completely renovated, I had the electrical updated. I also have to gut and renovate the kitchen so the wiring for the kitchen will get done at that time.

My bathroom has been gutted and fixed. ITs a tiny bathroom and besides wanting to move it next door to a bigger room, I just had to switch the position of toilet and sink. Initially I hired a handyman person that I knew, but we were not on the same page. 7 months later I found a bathroom reno company to finish it off. I didn't relocate the bathroom as that was beyond my budget and I didn't really want to revamp the house either. But I "designed" it, bought the material (tiles), lighting, toilet, sink etc. (exchanged three sinks in the process!) I still need to paint it and hang the mirror and shelf. But I love it!

Bathroom reno:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9536696...7623419249792/

I am also working on a small room where I tore out an old dirty orange rug, had a friend of a friend sand the hardwood floor and I stained it and varnished it. The person who sanded it didnt do a great job, lots of ruts in the corners. But its a give and take ... getting certain things done at a certain price.

This fall I need to complete the small room ... paint the walls (peacock blue), another coat of varnish on the floor. Complete the bathroom - paint the walls (white), hang mirror and shelf. And install a window in the living room and two attic windows (broken).

Me, not so handy, but I really enjoyed staining the floors. Do not like painting. Just had a baby too, so am limited.