When the Natural Consequence Is Far-Reaching or Worse for Me

[EdnaMarie]

I keep falling back into a very bad habit of threatening natural consequences, which are only partly natural (see below), which I really want to avoid. Most of them involve breaking up our daily routine, which we all enjoy (pre-school, park, walks, library, study time with mom, bath time, story time, and so on).

A lot of this has to do with getting out of the house and just getting moving. I try to make it playful, I really do, but I only have so much energy and sometimes it doesn't work. When I forget to be playful and make up a game (say, at 7:30 pre-coffee), we're screwed.

I am trying to be patient but she dawdles like crazy. If we miss certain windows, we can't do certain things, things she asks for, begs for, things she runs towards when we get there. Things DD2 also loves and should not be asked to miss on a regular basis. Things we all deserve to do regardless of whether DD1 is a dawdler or not.

How can I encourage her to just move? I feel like more talking, more explanation, really ends up as me berating her because she doesn't seem to care at that moment. She's just so in the moment.

I feel that I'm doing more and more for her, even more than I do for the baby, because I'm so sick of using words to explain this stuff. I mean, you don't want to nag, so then what? I had a thread awhile back and I realized that "do it or I'll do it for you" was something I'd left behind, but now I remember why.

SHe likes it when I do that. In fact, that's what she's asking for. For me to do it. But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

I want to get out of the house, to have her do it, and not to nag or threaten.

Is that possible or am I just dreaming?

[liberal_chick]

If you find a solution, let me know. It is like pulling teeth to get my 5 year old dressed and out the door for school every day. 95% of the time I just end up practically putting his clothes on for him.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

SHe likes it when I do that. In fact, that's what she's asking for. For me to do it. But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

I want to get out of the house, to have her do it, and not to nag or threaten.

Is that possible or am I just dreaming?

If that's what she's asking for, why are you withholding it? What's wrong with just helping her?

Neither of my kids could do these things independently at 4. They could physically do the steps, but they needed my presence to keep them on task and engaged in what they were doing.

I found that doing it together was simply much more pleasant than nagging constantly. My kids needed that little bit of extra attention, why not give it? 1st-2nd grade is when the could and would do these things themselves.

Have you read The 5 Love Languages of Children? It's worth a read. One of the "love languages" is acts of service. Another is time. For ds, these are his major love languages. He needed me (not just wanted me) to do these things for him to feel connected. Dd's love languages appear to be words and touch. She was more independent in self care than ds was at 4, but by being there with her, I could give her the touch and the words that she needed.

She won't go to college with you dressing her. Trust me on that one.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

DS is 5.5 and still needs help with these tasks. Every morning I dress him, and even getting into jammies requires some helping. Shoes? Forget it. That's why he has boots for rainy days and crocs for sunny days. Pull on, pull off.

I'm just saying. However, sticker charts worked really well for us at 4-5. If he did something independantly he got a sticker and if he got 15 stickers in a row, he got to have a special dinner for him (like picking up his room after school, or making his bed). But getting dressed just takes too long and things wind up backwards or stretched/ripped, just not worth it. I can dress him in his sleep before he even wakes up, most days.

[One_Girl]

My dd used to want me to dress her, after she picked out the clothes, at that age as a way to connect with me. It took maybe three minutes and it helped us get out the door quickly while also helping dd feel connected. If that is all it takes to get out the door without a long battle then I think you should go for it. By the time she was five she had phased out of that and was very independent. We put on shoes and coats on at the same time, I always made it a race at that age and it also helped.

[dogretro]

There are def more choices than having her dress herself or not going. You could dress her yourself. You could pack her clothes and shoes in a tote bag & let her leave in her pj's. She could choose to get dressed (or not) when you get to where you are going. You could have a sitter come over & stay w/ dd1 & just take dd2 out. It comes down to thinking about it and deciding which choice you can live w/ and going w/ that. It would kill me a little on the inside to have my kid leave the house in pajamas, but if it got us all out of the house smoothly on time & w/ no fights, I would suck it up and do it.

[Minxie]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

But shouldn't a four-year-old be able to dress, put on shoes, and buckle up?

Do you mean "buckle up her car seat?" My son is 4.5 and he can't buckle his car seat, nor do I let him.

As for the rest, he can dress himself and put on his own shoes but he often does dawdle. I solve that in a number of different ways based on how the morning is going:

1) Calmly help him while we chat about our dreams and our day.

2) Get frustrated and raise my voice.

3) Special breakfasts: "I'll be making oatmeal for everyone who gets dressed really quickly!"

4) Pick out his clothes: "I will be glad to pick out your clothes for you!" He loves to pick out his own clothes so he will hop up and get moving, especially because I will invariably pick a shirt he doesn't want to wear.

5) Challenge him to see who can get dressed first.

6) Get him to help me: "Could you find my white shoes for me please?"

7) Set an earlier bedtime that night so we can get up earlier and have dawdling time, which is what it really comes down to for us. We are slow starters and need extra time in the morning; if we have extra time, we can get ready peacefully and happily together.

[Smithie]

When there's another one who's going to be disappointed, that's when I draw the line. "Your sister/brother will not be punished because you are dawdling. Missing X would hurt her. Get those shoes on now." And then, if the dawdler doesn't leap into action, I DO physically help them, because I really meant it about being unwilling to punish the other sibling.

Since my big ones are 4 and 6, usually the one who wants to get out the door will start cheerleading the other one, and that helps enormously. But that's probably not going to happen with your toddler for awhile yet - my toddler just started walking out to the car independently last week, and has no faint clue where her siblings are at in the getting-ready process. So part of it may just be a waiting game.

[mamazee]

My dd couldn't buckle her car seat at 4. And I don't know if I'd trust her to listen to it click at that age. I'm not sure if she could do her shoes then either, but I do think she could dress herself, so long as there wasn't anything too complicated. But she absolutely needed me to be right on top of her reminding her to do it, if not helping along the way.

4 is still really young. My dd at 8 can do all of those things, despite me helping her for so long. And I do think they don't really have the same concept of time that we have, so the idea of "dawdling" isn't really there. They're just doing their thing with no idea of how long it takes or how much time they have.

[Petie1104]

I noticed you have a 4 yr.old and an 18 mo. old. Here is the habit that I bet almost EVERY mom of more than one falls into. Baby is born and older sib looks SOOOO big in comparison that we expect them to behave older than they actually are. Remember, 4 is still really young. Not to mention, she has a sib, which means whatever you do to help 18 mo old, she is desperate for. She wants to know that you still have time for her, that her sister isn't taking away from her.

I just know that too often I wanted to expect dss or ds, or dd to be able to do things for themselves that even though they had the physical dexterity for, they just were not ready to be that independant. Don't worry, the day WILL come when you go to help her with her shoes and she says, "NO mom, I'm too big for your help". At that point, you'll miss the days when she begs for your help.

[Kuba'sMama]

I will go against the grain here and say that I DO expect my four year old to do these things independantly (minus the buckling, I don't drive). She goes to school and the teacher expects them to do it by themselves for the most part as well. I don't think it's beyond their abilities at all. I personally do not know any children my dd's age that are not expected to put on their clothes or shoes by themselves and I know A LOT of 4 year olds.

I think for the most part the dawdling is a result of just not understanding the concept of "being on time". I try to make my mornings as smooth as possible ( I have a baby as well) by doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE the night before. So, laying out the outfits for everyone, preparing any snack bags, diaper bags, backpacks, etc, etc. Even pouring out cold cereal into bowls and putting out the spoons, so all that's left to do in the morning is just pouring milk over it. I think they might think we have more time than we do when they see us running around grabbing this and that and not being too organized ourselves. "Hey mom is dawdling, why shouldn't I, lol".

Give yourself more time than you think you need-- think you need about 20 minutes to get everyone dressed and out the door? Give yourself 40. I don't think 4 is too early to begin understanding the concept of time, my daughter can be told "we have to leave the house when the big hand is on 12", for example. Show her what time the playgroup (or whatever) starts, and what time you have to leave the house to make it.

[Bay Area Babe]

Hey Kuba's Mama - Meet my 4yo! Lucas turned four in August. He's just not interested even though he's fiercely independent. I don't push the issue and figure he'll do it when he's ready.

EdnaMarie - We miss things if DS dawdles though we only have one so there is no punishment for another sibling if we miss things. That would be incredibly unfair. But maybe once it happens a few times she'll figure it out. Sometimes DS has decided not to do things that I know that he loves (ice skating, park, story time, ride his bike) or we miss nearly all of something because he'd rather play with his Legos or read a story at home or take FOREVER to go to the bathroom. When he later realizes that he missed his chance, he's sometimes incredibly sad, and that is hard for me, but what is worse is a frustrated/angry mama from struggling to get out of the door. For us, that's also why we don't schedule many things with concrete times.

I like the suggestion of leaving in pajamas or whatnot or helping your DD1 get dressed. Sometimes I think my 4yo should be doing these things on his own, and if I forced him I am sure that he could/would, but it's just not my parenting style.

[LessTraveledBy]

The more you talk the worse it probably gets. If you can stay calm and "there" mentally, you can let go of the extra talk.

Our dd is 5.5 and has been dressing herself since she was quite young. However, even now she often needs more time than I would like. That is just how it is. When we need to go somewhere, I tell her we need to go now and help her find what she needs to wear. (She picks her own inside clothes, I pick the coat, etc. what is appropriate for the weather.) If she is for some reason not able to put her things on, I ask if she would like some help. Then I remind her once that we will go as soon as my clothes are on. If she chooses not to get dressed, I throw her clothes in my bag and we go. (No blame or anger there... Sometimes this is a lot of fun for her. You know, the shock of not wearing a coat, for example. Rebellious in a fun and safe way.) Since this is not a power struggle, she is also quick to ask for her coat, etc. when she starts to get cold.

If I needed to, I would also calmly take her out by the hand or carry her out. She knows that there is no option called "make other people be late." The options all have to do with how much and what clothing she puts on. At her age, it really also helps to have clothing she has picked out. (I buy most things used on Ebay and ask for dd's opinion before deciding to buy something.)

If all else fails, try to remember, that this will not last very long... Some years from now she will be dressed faster than you to get out the door...

[OkiMom]

Mine isn't quite 4 yet but she does have her own way of doing things.. A lot of times I have to help her out a lot. A few things that help:
1) I do everything in an assembly line. We all go to their room together and pick out clothes, take it to my room and lay them out. We all shower together, we all dress together. Usually if she sees me putting clothing on her little sister it prodes her into moving. If Im in a hurry Ill tell her something along the lines of "See if you can get dressed faster than DD2 and I can".
2) A lot of the problem with both girls doddling is that they have to many options. So I pick two things out and they pick one of the two. Otherwise just picking out clothing can take up to an hour and telling them we are going to miss something just doesn't work.
3) DD1 doesn't buckle herself in, she doesn't have the hand strength to do the croch buckle. Instead she will do her chest buckle (she knows to check the straps to make sure they are twisted) while i put in DD2 then I reach over and buckle her croch buckle. Takes maybe 30 seconds, a minute if Im worried the straps aren't done right.
4) Start getting ready EARLY. I try to start getting ready an hour before leaving the house. The more stressed/hurried I am the more they feed off of it and the worse it gets. Then I get more stressed, they slow down, stressing me out.. you get the drift. Finally I snap, the girls cry, I have to stop doing whatever it is Im doing (stressing myself out more) and calm them down.. etc. If I can keep myself from being stressed it stops some of the problems.

I wonder if its something to do with 4 year olds. The closer my daughter gets to four the more needy she is getting. She use to do a lot of things herself that she now insists she needs help to do. For example, shes been potty independant since shortly after her second birthday, lately shes been wanting me to take her to the potty and help her wiping. Two months ago she would have freaked and screamed NO if I tried to help her. Same with picking out clothes, brushing teeth, getting shoes on etc. She use to do it by herself, now she insists she needs help.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by OkiMom

I wonder if its something to do with 4 year olds. The closer my daughter gets to four the more needy she is getting. She use to do a lot of things herself that she now insists she needs help to do. For example, shes been potty independant since shortly after her second birthday, lately shes been wanting me to take her to the potty and help her wiping. Two months ago she would have freaked and screamed NO if I tried to help her. Same with picking out clothes, brushing teeth, getting shoes on etc. She use to do it by herself, now she insists she needs help.

I think this is a natural phase before a new step in mental development. I know when I was 17 and about to go off to University, I regressed slightly and wanted to call my mom mommy, and slept in her bed for a while. I needed to know that if I couldn't do it, I could count on her to still love me. I think kids go through these phases around 4 or 5 again around 7 or 8 and then again before adolescence and at the end of it and really before any major life changing phase in life. I think they can sense that they are growing up and might not be as connected to us and so they hesitate in their development, wanting to hold on to us a little longer. The next thing you know they're off and away.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

I think she may be capable, but she is looking for connection. It is not about her physically being able to dress etc, but about her wanting to know her mama is still there for her and willing to help her no matter what. (Does that make it less frustrating for you, probably not! )

I think that *not* helping might make the phase last longer, because the underlying cause is more about connection and safety and all that good stuff. Making it not a big deal to ask/want/need help, will hopefully help her feel secure to do it alone.

Also seeing little sibling become more independant, but still getting/needing a lot of help and attention can be hard for the older (but still young) kid and she may just need to know that she will always be your baby too.

[madskye]

DD is 5.5 and she can dress herself and do shoes. Our car seat buckle is kind of tough--I don't expect that.

Most mornings, I do dress her. It's just easier. I figure some day soon she will say I CAN DO IT MYSELF and not want me to. Since she started kindy, she has been protesting that she doesn't know how to dress herself. I figure she's regressing a bit/craving the attention so I've just been doing it.

At night she can put her jammies on fine. And I'm not usually time crunched so that's less stress for everyone.

DD lives in the moment, so the threat of missing something later has never mattered to her. And as you point out, it just really screws up your day. So, it sounds like an ineffective consequence.

What about, instead, talking about and rewarding cooperation? I talk to DD about cooperation a lot. It's not magic, but I feel like at 5.5 she is starting to get the concept that I can't do everything--and that her help and cooperation is really important.

[Learning_Mum]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

If that's what she's asking for, why are you withholding it? What's wrong with just helping her?

Neither of my kids could do these things independently at 4. They could physically do the steps, but they needed my presence to keep them on task and engaged in what they were doing.

I found that doing it together was simply much more pleasant than nagging constantly. My kids needed that little bit of extra attention, why not give it? 1st-2nd grade is when the could and would do these things themselves.

Have you read The 5 Love Languages of Children? It's worth a read. One of the "love languages" is acts of service. Another is time. For ds, these are his major love languages. He needed me (not just wanted me) to do these things for him to feel connected. Dd's love languages appear to be words and touch. She was more independent in self care than ds was at 4, but by being there with her, I could give her the touch and the words that she needed.

She won't go to college with you dressing her. Trust me on that one.

This is my DS1. I have only come to realise recently that his love language is acts of service. Well, actually, I had realised that before but I didn't connect it with wanting me to get him dressed / undressed. I have tried to battle with him over it, and now I am just going with it. I figure there will come a point where he won't want me to do it anymore and if it makes him feel loved, then why not do it? When he was younger I always gave him time to do things when he was ready (like toilet training, going to kindy etc) so I figure this is just one more thing that he will do when he is ready to do it.

[prothyraia]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

I want to get out of the house, to have her do it, and not to nag or threaten.

Is that possible or am I just dreaming?

Some of those things are almost completely under your control. It's up to you whether you all get out of the house, and it's up to you whether you nag or threaten.

It's up to her whether she does things herself. I mean, I'm sure there's all kinds of tricks, tips, and techniques out there that you could use to encourage her, but ultimately it's not entirely within your power.

So, you get to decide on any given day whether it's more important for you to get out of the house (and just do it for her), or whether it's more important for you to not have to help her (and just stay home). It helps if you figure out which is your priority before you start.

[EdnaMarie]

Thanks, everyone.

I should clarify one thing. One of the reasons I know she can physically do these things herself is that I spent the better part of 2.5 to 3.5 waiting patiently, oh, so patiently, as she insisted she would do it herself. Irrationally, because obviously we did not have an explicit contract, I feel I am "owed" a little help here now that she's even more skilled. I know that she's not obligated, but I do think that it's fair to say she could do the things I'm asking, if she wanted.

I also will clarify that I always check the seat-belt buckle. I just want her to be in the habit.

I think for the most part the dawdling is a result of just not understanding the concept of "being on time".

I absolutely agree with this. Has anyone heard the song, "Time" by Sweet Honey in the Rock? If not, you MUST LISTEN. It's hilarious and so refreshing.

Give yourself more time than you think you need-- think you need about 20 minutes to get everyone dressed and out the door?

It takes us an HOUR! It is THAT SLOW. I'd say 35 minutes if I did everything for her and that's without breakfast (eat in the car). You see... if I do it, she resists every step. If she does it, well, she doesn't do it.

I can reward her, but we often end up in a bribes/rewards arms race and I'm not comfortable with that. All of a sudden oatmeal isn't enough. It has to have chocolate, or be waffles (she demands this). And then there are two battles instead of one (go to bed, and no, no waffles...). Maybe I'm not good at explaining rewards to her?

But maybe once it happens a few times she'll figure it out.

She hasn't. I think it's again due to a lack of understanding of time. She doesn't connect the two experiences (not getting dressed, not going to the park) because sometimes when she does get dressed, it seems like a long time before we get to the park, though I try to make it fast. Things come up. Or she didn't go to pre-school because she was too tired because she didn't go to bed. She's not a particularly consequence/logic oriented person and she just looks at me like I'm giving her a math fact when I explain that.

I am sure it will come sometime, but for now, I have to re-explain the immediate consequence each time. And it sounds like a threat.

For us, that's also why we don't schedule many things with concrete times.

We have a balance with this but with two kids, pre-school, and limited daylight, things are tight. That is part of the problem and I am working over in my head how to make it work, but I just don't see how I can loosen it any while keeping the nap, meals, park, pre-school, bedtime routine, special time with each kid. Yep, that's pretty much it. LOL!

Okimom- I actually use a technique for getting dressed that completely eliminates clothes battles. We pick out our clothes for the week and put them in those Ikea hanging shelves. Top is Monday, next is Tuesday, etc. We have layers so there's never a weather question. You are right, I cannot IMAGINE picking clothes out at that hour... LOL!

I try to make my mornings as smooth as possible ( I have a baby as well) by doing EVERYTHING POSSIBLE the night before. So, laying out the outfits for everyone, preparing any snack bags, diaper bags, backpacks, etc, etc. Even pouring out cold cereal into bowls and putting out the spoons, so all that's left to do in the morning is just pouring milk over it.

This kind of depresses me because I do that, too, and we don't even eat breakfast, LOL!

I literally stand next to her, if not getting her dressed, repeating calmly, "Now take your pyjama bottoms off. Pyjama bottoms off. Bottoms off. Take your..." She runs away. I bring her back and firmly repeat, until she does it.

Yes, of course I could do it for her. But again, that is another struggle.

Sticker chart: We actually did this for awhile, but then she would have meltdowns if she didn't get the star!!! Ugh. "It's disappointing, but you needed to..." had zero effect. I don't think that will work for her at this point. I plan on introducing it again later, though.

I found that doing it together was simply much more pleasant than nagging constantly. My kids needed that little bit of extra attention, why not give it? 1st-2nd grade is when the could and would do these things themselves.

Have you read The 5 Love Languages of Children? It's worth a read. One of the "love languages" is acts of service. Another is time. For ds, these are his major love languages. He needed me (not just wanted me) to do these things for him to feel connected. Dd's love languages appear to be words and touch. She was more independent in self care than ds was at 4, but by being there with her, I could give her the touch and the words that she needed.

Thank you. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel... LOL! I will just do it, even if she battles. I will also read the love languages book. I think DD is definitely a "gifts"/"service" person. I am XNTP, and she and DH are both ESTP or ESFP (or in-between).

So, you get to decide on any given day whether it's more important for you to get out of the house (and just do it for her), or whether it's more important for you to not have to help her (and just stay home). It helps if you figure out which is your priority before you start.

This is a good point. I think part of the problem is that I'm somewhat conflicted, and therefore not as confident. Maybe she's picking up on that.

I will set first grade as my goal (end of first grade, she'll be nearly eight by that time as she's an October baby) and count this as part of our "special time" knowing that she can do it, but prefers not to. That gives me a lot of time to relax about it.

Thanks again, everyone...