question regarding narcissism/possible personality disorder

[bananabee]

My therapist is the one who suggested H may have NPD, and it was when H searched my room while I was out that he found the pages I'd printed out about it.

When I first told him I'd filed for divorce because he said he didn't love me (along w/horribly neglecting me and taking away my "allowance"), he didn't believe me. His behavior got really unpredictable and eratic, as he seemed to be freaking out over how to handle things. He hasn't been violent at all, just angry as in yelling, harassing me and arguing with me or demanding things like sleeping w/my infant daughter... I called the police two nights in a row, and although they couldn't really do much, it did get it across to him that he couldn't just do whatever he wanted without someone in authority documenting it all.

Then he totally flipped the next day into "I'm sorry - now I'm finally willing to put everything I have into making things work...I'll do anything you ask! For life!"

I did, after a week, start to reconsider, and let him rub my feet. Then he later wanted to kiss me...I asked him to back off and slow down. I also had been joking around with him...then when I mentioned I had a credit card payment due by the 3rd, the subject of what was going on with the divorce came up...I said I wasn't ready to cancel it yet so we should continue to base plans on having the temporary hearing on the 1st. That's when he flipped out that I was "abusing" him in my joking around. I apologized, then he started twisting all my words, screaming "you're an Fing B!!", etc while I was holding the baby...

Okay, so now that I am DEFINITELY NOT canceling the divorce, um he has relaxed and is back to being nice to hang out with.

Is that typical w/NPD or people who are pathologically control freaks? Or is it possible he's treatable? He did go to one therapy appt, but rather than make the appt w/someone my therapist recommended, he went to another one who I've already seen months ago, so she couldn't take him on. Not sure if he'll really seek therapy seriously. To make matters more complicated, he's in the Navy and is moving in Dec. I'm not sure if therapy will look bad on his record or not.

Anyway...

Just wondering.

TIA

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

All I have to say is..............Does it matter?

mama. You need distance from this man. he sounds FRIGHTENINGLY dangerous. He is riducously abusive, and I have to ask if youve considered joining the SA forum. I think you will get a ton of help over there.

[Halfasianmomma]

He's leaving in December? If I read that right, it's your ticket to freedom. That man sounds seriously disturbed (how do I know? My DH was/is either a narcissist or a psychopath) and you definitely need some support in getting far far away from him.

[bananabee]

Yes, he'll be leaving then. I just find it odd that he can be so "normal" that it disarms me a little. Mind-boggling. In our temporary agreement, I've basically asked for supervised visits and zero overnights by asking that all daddy/baby interactions take place here and putting no limit on when he can see her. Hopefully that will keep him in this relaxed mindset. He says he was telling a friend how great we get along when we're not trying to make things work.

I guess it's silly to expect a narcissist to have any self-awareness.

Thanks for your responses. I was just curious. I know I'm doing the right thing.

[Avani]

Don't bother trying to analyze him. Just do what you need to do. Personally I think therapists should not attempt to diagnose people they have never met. Either way just focus on yourself and the children. During breakups and divorce aftermath people's emotions can be all over the place.

[Mulvah]

I agree with the others that if he's leaving in December, that's your ticket out. Please take it; I can almost promise that you will regret staying, but you won't regret leaving.

Please keep yourself and your baby safe. He is not worth it.

Edited by Mulvah - 1/29/11 at 4:00pm

[Holland73]

Originally Posted by Avani

Personally I think therapists should not attempt to diagnose people they have never met.

As someone who has experienced a few amazing therapists and as a therapist-in-training myself, it is bad business to be diagnosing, or even giving the suggestion of a diagnosis, to a client about someone they have never met.

Additionally, NPD is one of the most difficult personality disorders to diagnosis and it is never "just" NPD... there are often other disorders mixed in there. Diagnosis is very rarely so clear-cut.

Ultimately, and thankfully, for you... it just doesn't matter. All that matters is that you need to take the steps to keep you and your baby safe. And, it looks as though you have a perfect window in December to do just that.

[*MamaJen*]

For both NPD and BPD (borderline personality disorder) and for abuse in general, yes, it is absolutely 100 percent normal and actually to be expected for the abuser to act abusive and then shortly afterwords, act to kind.
Have you heard of the "cycle of abuse"? It's a really useful way to understand any kind of abuse. Basically, there's the walking on eggs tension-building phase, followed by the outburst of abuse, followed by the "honeymoon phase", which is what you're in now. Rinse once, repeat.
Nobody would stay in abuse (at least initially) if it were horrible every single second of the day. That mix of abusive behavior followed by kind/normal behavior creates a really potent mix in the victim's brain. It keeps you always thrown off guard -- you don't know if you're going to come home to Jeckel or Hyde. It makes you doubt your own memories and perceptions. If he's being so nice and normal now, was he really that bad? Surely he's changed. Abuse victims have this uncanny ability to minimize, deny and forget past abuse, or convince themselves that every honemoon phase means the abuser has changed. Of course, he hasn't. That's why writing down every episode of abuse is so hugely helpful. When you go back and reread it, you see the truth emerge. And also, that abuse-honeymoon phase actually creates something very much like Stockholm Syndrome in the mind of the victim, where people bond with their captors. Abuse is literally a very effective form of brainwashing, which is one of the reasons why it's so hard to break free.
Abuse almost always follows the cycle of abuse, and it almost always escalates. Also, I personally believe that the vast majority of abusers fit profiles for some kind of personality disorder -- if you look at abusers, there's a ton of PBD, NPD and good old fashioned sociopathy in there.
In terms of "treating" abusers, it's insanely difficult. First off, they have to really truly want to change. Many of them give lip service to wanting to change, but they're lying. They just want to preserve the status quo.
After I got out of my own emotionally/verbally abuse relationship with a guy with BPD, I have talked to dozens, maybe hundreds, of women who are in abuse or escaped abuse. Not a single one of their abuse partners ever changed.
The only way to not be abused is to leave, and I'm so glad you've found the courage to take that step. Good luck, and keep us posted. And yes, I would highly, highly recommend joining the surviving abuse forum.

[sparklefairy]

Here's a graphic that illustrates the "cycle of abuse" concept:

http://www.theduluthmodel.org/pdf/PhyVio.pdf

Originally Posted by *MamaJen*

For both NPD and BPD (borderline personality disorder) and for abuse in general, yes, it is absolutely 100 percent normal and actually to be expected for the abuser to act abusive and then shortly afterwords, act to kind.
Have you heard of the "cycle of abuse"? It's a really useful way to understand any kind of abuse. Basically, there's the walking on eggs tension-building phase, followed by the outburst of abuse, followed by the "honeymoon phase", which is what you're in now. Rinse once, repeat.
Nobody would stay in abuse (at least initially) if it were horrible every single second of the day. That mix of abusive behavior followed by kind/normal behavior creates a really potent mix in the victim's brain. It keeps you always thrown off guard -- you don't know if you're going to come home to Jeckel or Hyde. It makes you doubt your own memories and perceptions. If he's being so nice and normal now, was he really that bad? Surely he's changed. Abuse victims have this uncanny ability to minimize, deny and forget past abuse, or convince themselves that every honemoon phase means the abuser has changed. Of course, he hasn't. That's why writing down every episode of abuse is so hugely helpful. When you go back and reread it, you see the truth emerge. And also, that abuse-honeymoon phase actually creates something very much like Stockholm Syndrome in the mind of the victim, where people bond with their captors. Abuse is literally a very effective form of brainwashing, which is one of the reasons why it's so hard to break free.
Abuse almost always follows the cycle of abuse, and it almost always escalates. Also, I personally believe that the vast majority of abusers fit profiles for some kind of personality disorder -- if you look at abusers, there's a ton of PBD, NPD and good old fashioned sociopathy in there.
In terms of "treating" abusers, it's insanely difficult. First off, they have to really truly want to change. Many of them give lip service to wanting to change, but they're lying. They just want to preserve the status quo.
After I got out of my own emotionally/verbally abuse relationship with a guy with BPD, I have talked to dozens, maybe hundreds, of women who are in abuse or escaped abuse. Not a single one of their abuse partners ever changed.
The only way to not be abused is to leave, and I'm so glad you've found the courage to take that step. Good luck, and keep us posted. And yes, I would highly, highly recommend joining the surviving abuse forum.

[PoppyMama]

It was pretty inappropriate and really not helpful for your therapist to give a diagnosis on your stbx. Only a Psychologist/Psychiatrist should be handing that out and only after first hand analysis of the person. I also want to point out that his behavior is to be expected for someone with a PD but is also "normal" for addicts (often multiple diagnosis there), bipolar (not a PD), etc. If you haven't already found yourself doing it too you may soon. It's all part of the crazymaking. My x was an addict (who may have had more issues but who snowed every therapist he saw when we were together) and by the end I felt like I lived on a world where up wasn't up and down wasn't down and the ground was always shifting beneath my feet. It took me years to feel normal again and it doesn't take a whole lot to dredge some of that "crazy" up. It probably would be harmful or fatal to his military career to end up with a psych diagnosis but that is not your responsibility. It's also not going to help you to try to get him help- don't waste time trying to understand. Get out and keep moving forward in the really normal direction...your own.

[*MamaJen*]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

It was pretty inappropriate and really not helpful for your therapist to give a diagnosis on your stbx. Only a Psychologist/Psychiatrist should be handing that out and only after first hand analysis of the person.

I'm going to gently disagree with this.
Of course, it wouldn't be appropriate for a therapist to literally diagnose someone they've never met.
However, I think it is incredibly appropriate for them to say, "Many of the actions you're describing sound like they might be consistent with NPD. You might want to read up on the disorder and learn about it."
I had never heard of borderline personality disorder. Then I wound up in an abusive relationship with a guy who, while never sticking around with a psychiatrist long enough to get diagnosed, shows every BPD trait in the list. I stumbled across the term BPD when I googled emotional abuse, and wound up researching BPD. It was a major lightbulb moment to read this list of traits and see my abusive boyfriend in every one of them. It finally let me understand what was going on and why he was doing the things he was doing. I finally believed that it really wasn't my fault. And that helped me to leave the abuse for good.
In my experience, it's always helpful for an abuse victim to understand the specific disorder that the abuser has. Narcissists act different from borderlines, and both act different from people with anti-social disorder. They abuse in different ways. It's just always good to have more information, I think.

[bananabee]

Originally Posted by *MamaJen*

However, I think it is incredibly appropriate for them to say, "Many of the actions you're describing sound like they might be consistent with NPD. You might want to read up on the disorder and learn about it."
I had never heard of borderline personality disorder. Then I wound up in an abusive relationship with a guy who, while never sticking around with a psychiatrist long enough to get diagnosed, shows every BPD trait in the list. I stumbled across the term BPD when I googled emotional abuse, and wound up researching BPD. It was a major lightbulb moment to read this list of traits and see my abusive boyfriend in every one of them. It finally let me understand what was going on and why he was doing the things he was doing. I finally believed that it really wasn't my fault. And that helped me to leave the abuse for good.
In my experience, it's always helpful for an abuse victim to understand the specific disorder that the abuser has. Narcissists act different from borderlines, and both act different from people with anti-social disorder. They abuse in different ways. It's just always good to have more information, I think.

Yes - that is exactly what happened. When I kept expressing that I didn't understand the way he acts...that he seems so genuine and sincere, yet he can be so completely crazily accusatory towards me, that he's extremely naive in some ways, and extremely judgmental in others. It just didn't make any sense until she told me to go google NPD, and that might fill in some of the pieces.

I guess you could say I'm still trying to fill in the pieces, as I'm seeing how he acts with different mindsets. Just wanted to know if it was typical for someone with NPD to be relaxed and happy and friendly once we've kinda mutually decided there was no hope of reconciliation. It's not like he's trying to get me back.

I have tendinitis and occasional carpal tunnel so I try to keep things short, which is why I sometimes leave details out that might be pertinent when that's not the focus of my question.

Thanks again for your responses.

[bananabee]

Originally Posted by PoppyMama

It was pretty inappropriate and really not helpful for your therapist to give a diagnosis on your stbx. Only a Psychologist/Psychiatrist should be handing that out and only after first hand analysis of the person. I also want to point out that his behavior is to be expected for someone with a PD but is also "normal" for addicts (often multiple diagnosis there), bipolar (not a PD), etc. If you haven't already found yourself doing it too you may soon. It's all part of the crazymaking. My x was an addict (who may have had more issues but who snowed every therapist he saw when we were together) and by the end I felt like I lived on a world where up wasn't up and down wasn't down and the ground was always shifting beneath my feet. It took me years to feel normal again and it doesn't take a whole lot to dredge some of that "crazy" up. It probably would be harmful or fatal to his military career to end up with a psych diagnosis but that is not your responsibility. It's also not going to help you to try to get him help- don't waste time trying to understand. Get out and keep moving forward in the really normal direction...your own.

More clarification...My STBX is not an addict, and he's also agreed that he has many NPD characteristics (he found the papers I'd printed out). My therapist is a psychologist, and she has met him before, as well as read some of his letters. But again, she wasn't diagnosing him. She was just trying to help me understand how he could be so far flung in one direction, as well as another. She is a very good therapist. With my degree I have had some counseling training, and I would esp not see someone who seemed to have lax judgment in the ethics dept.

[*MamaJen*]

Also, one way of understanding narcissists...they have trouble understanding that other people's emotions are real or actually exist. So if he's not mad at himself for treating you badly, it likely doesn't really register that you might be feeling hurt. So it's no problem for him to act like everything is peachy.

[provocativa]

my ex (well, the divorce isn't final yet) is definitely NPD and has some traits of antisocial pd. i think i looked up npd originally b/c of something mamajen mentioned in a thread a long time ago. anyway, he is definitely congenial now, after an early bout of threats and intimidation right after the separation. however, i think it is manipulation rather than change- he wants what he wants in the divorce decree. also, he is happier away from the stress of the kids, and- he is a narcissist, and so wrapped up in his own world, not mourning the loss of his family as acutely as would an emotionally healthy individual. also, my x is in court-ordered counseling so that may be helping him maintain congeniality. every now and then he slips, and i can see the tension in a jaw muscle that betrays that he is really just maintaining for the sake of getting what he wants.

[red and lulu]

Originally Posted by *MamaJen*

Also, one way of understanding narcissists...they have trouble understanding that other people's emotions are real or actually exist. So if he's not mad at himself for treating you badly, it likely doesn't really register that you might be feeling hurt. So it's no problem for him to act like everything is peachy.

Narcissists, especially those with full-blown NPD, have no empathy. They are completely unable to see how they affect others. They also are incapable of seeing themselves clearly, and so it is one personality disorder that is near impossible to "treat." A narcissist will never say "I'm a narcissist, I need help." when you're getting along, he's more relaxed b/c you're reflecting back to him what he thinks of himself- that he's a great guy, and that you love him. When you challenge that self image, he lashes out. This cycle will not end. Get away from this man. Take care of yourself and your baby.

[bananabee]

Originally Posted by *MamaJen*

Also, one way of understanding narcissists...they have trouble understanding that other people's emotions are real or actually exist. So if he's not mad at himself for treating you badly, it likely doesn't really register that you might be feeling hurt. So it's no problem for him to act like everything is peachy.

Yes yes YES! THIS is what I've been noticing. Thank you for putting it into words. I've said/seen that about him before.

One of the disadvantages I have in all of this is that I have narcolepsy, and with it, memory issues that make it hard for me to remember things that I haven't been dwelling on. That makes it easier for me to excuse him for similar type behavior until I realize it's not a memory deficit, it's an empathy deficit. Whereas I forgive and forget, or just plain forget temporarily, he excuses, ignores, or blames.

Originally Posted by provocativa

my ex (well, the divorce isn't final yet) is definitely NPD and has some traits of antisocial pd. i think i looked up npd originally b/c of something mamajen mentioned in a thread a long time ago. anyway, he is definitely congenial now, after an early bout of threats and intimidation right after the separation. however, i think it is manipulation rather than change- he wants what he wants in the divorce decree. also, he is happier away from the stress of the kids, and- he is a narcissist, and so wrapped up in his own world, not mourning the loss of his family as acutely as would an emotionally healthy individual. also, my x is in court-ordered counseling so that may be helping him maintain congeniality. every now and then he slips, and i can see the tension in a jaw muscle that betrays that he is really just maintaining for the sake of getting what he wants.

I don't think STBX is hiding any of his motivation for anything. But you're absolutely right - he's not mourning the loss of his family at all. It is so WEIRD, and definitely shows me that I'm not dealing with a real human person.

Originally Posted by red + lulu

Narcissists, especially those with full-blown NPD, have no empathy. They are completely unable to see how they affect others. They also are incapable of seeing themselves clearly, and so it is one personality disorder that is near impossible to "treat." A narcissist will never say "I'm a narcissist, I need help." when you're getting along, he's more relaxed b/c you're reflecting back to him what he thinks of himself- that he's a great guy, and that you love him. When you challenge that self image, he lashes out. This cycle will not end. Get away from this man. Take care of yourself and your baby.

He is at his first real therapy appt right now. It'll be interesting to see what he comes back with. If they give him the slightest semblance of validation, I'm expecting some fury when he gets home. I'm going to play dead (as in take a nap) until I go to dinner at a friend's house. December can't come too soon. I can't wait to have my own place again.