How to get teachers to respect other ways of solving problems? - Page 4

[gcgirl]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

The directions said write the number. Your daughter wrote the number word. I'm not denying it was divergent thinking, but she wasn't following the directions given.

I disagree with your assessment. For a divergent thinker, those instructions were ambiguous. I could see that happening and if I were the teacher, I would have a chuckle over it.

But then I'm the one whose parents got called in to discuss how I couldn't follow directions when I added an "F" to a faulty alphabet we were supposed to copy. The "F" was missing; I added it. And I got an "F" on the assignment.

OP, it depends on the teacher. I would say keep a lookout, and if the teacher remains inflexible, consider switching. The teacher who razzed me about the alphabet couldn't stand me because I was too advanced for her class and she didn't want to accommodate me. Thankfully, my parents recognized that and got me moved up a grade and in with a much better teacher.

[annettemarie]

Well, I was also assuming there was actual instruction going on along with the worksheet and that the teacher had consistently been using the word number to mean numeral. I've never encountered a first grade teaching situation where a teacher just tossed random worksheets at first grade kids without actual guidance and instruction.

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

It's true, i'm not sure how all of it rolls out when it's private school. I do know that it's the law for public and private schools to accomodate learning disabilities, should the child have one. .

This was *not* our experience. A private school my son attended in CA told me directly that there are many learning disabilities they *can not* and *will not* work with. It is my understanding that in some cases, if a public school cannot serve a child's needs, the public school (district) may be required to pay the tuition to a private school for that child, but that there is no requirement that a private school serve all learning disabilities.

Private schools are free to accept or not accept students, and can ask students to leave. Maybe it depends on the state, but that was not our experience.


And when I stated assessment I was addressing the OP when she said that they were still figuring out at what level her daughter was at, assessment for instruction, not an assessment for a LD.

[baglady]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

I do know that it's the law for public and private schools to accomodate learning disabilities, should the child have one.

Maybe this varies state by state, but where I am private schools absolutely do not have to accommodate children with learning disabilities. In fact, most of them state in their paperwork that thy do not accommodate learning disabilities. What they do have to accommodate is physical disabilities that do not affect a child's learning, such as a child in a wheelchair with no learning disability.

As far as the worksheet goes, I would talk to the teacher if it is bothering you. My first thought was that maybe the class has completed the assignment in class before this worksheet with the same instructions given or maybe is was just poorly worded. Sometimes there's still a kid that misunderstands what you mean even when you try to think of every possible misinterpretation.

Honestly as a teacher most of the time when kids don't complete something correctly you change the wording for next time and don't count it against the child. If this is just a worksheet and not something that counts toward a grade I don't see what's wrong with just correcting the work. If the issue is that your daughter is sensitive to correction, you should go ask the teacher to pull her aside and explain what was meant by the correction.

It's really common for gifted kids to skip or overthink directions. I remember having the dreaded true/false tests in school. I would write a paragraph next to the answers I marked false to make sure the teacher understood why I thought it was false. I would want to know if one of my students was super sensitive to something like your DD so I could speak to her about it.

[EdnaMarie]

It's the first definition.

Life is full of stuff like this. If you're not sure, ask. That is a good lesson to learn.

[minkin03]

Originally Posted by Daffodil

This is the kind of thing that I know would drive me crazy if my kids were in school. I don't think I'd try to work on changing the teacher's attitude, though - I doubt there's much chance of that. Instead, I'd try to help my kid develop the right attitude, to learn to shrug those things off as unimportant. If something is marked wrong because you didn't understand the concept or read the directions right, then you've learned something useful about what you need to work on. If something is marked wrong because the instructions were bad or the teacher made a mistake, your mark isn't telling you anything useful about your performance, so you don't have to be concerned about it. It may not be "fair," but so what? The teacher is probably making similar mistakes with all the other kids, and grades in elementary school aren't important anyway. If you put a lot of effort into trying to show the teacher how your daughter really was right, you're making the mistake you don't want your daughter to make - giving too much importance to something that may be mildly annoying (or extremely annoying - as I said, it would probably drive me crazy) but really doesn't matter in the long run.

I agree. I have a similar issues with my 7 yo dd and her 2nd grade teacher. My dd hasn't been formally diagnosed but all signs at this point are pointing to her being dyslexic. Her teacher will mark her math papers wrong if she writes the numbers backwards or reversed. (i.e. for 12+6 she may answer with 81, for 20+3 she'll put 32 with both numbers reversed to where you can read them in a mirror). i don't agree with the teacher's philosophy that she feels comfortable marking it wrong since she's corrected my dd about it already and feels she should know it. my dd will bring home math tests where she's failed but technically had all the answers write, just backwards/reversed. I still put them on the fridge and tell her good job and that her answers are still correct and in my eyes she got a perfect paper.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

It's the first definition.

The teacher intended, but didn't say, that she was using the first definition. The child thought she was using the third definition. The use of the word "number" was ambiguous. Personally I believe the onus should be on the adult, not the 6-year-old, to ensure clarity, though of course this is an opportunity for the 6-year-old to learn that adults can make poor word choices. And also that if you happen to notice the ambiguity in the language, rather than, like the teacher, simply assuming others are using your particular definition, you should ask about it.

I suppose I was just surprised that so many in this thread were saying "The child's answer is obviously wrong. The question was clear." It wasn't clear.

Miranda

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Well, I was also assuming there was actual instruction going on along with the worksheet and that the teacher had consistently been using the word number to mean numeral. I've never encountered a first grade teaching situation where a teacher just tossed random worksheets at first grade kids without actual guidance and instruction.

Exactly. Any worksheets that my first grader had last year correlated to the curriculum precisely, and were identical to what was being taught in the classroom right then and there. Also, the class does the work as a group.

[carmel23]

Honestly, I don't think it matters if the OPs daughter did the worksheet correctly, didn't do it correctly, had proper instructions, or didn't.

I think the problem is that the OP's dd is in a class where:

1) the teacher has either not made any effort to actually ascertain the real ability (potential and actual) of the student,

2) or worse has made the effort in a *harmful* way (by trying to trick her, or "stump" her.

My feeling is that is doesn't take a lot of time for a perceptive kid to pick up on this and internalize it.

[EdnaMarie]

I suppose I was just surprised that so many in this thread were saying "The child's answer is obviously wrong. The question was clear." It wasn't clear.

In this case, I think it's fair to ask the teacher if any other child made the same interpretation.

If not, it's safe to say that it is not the understood use of those terms in that context. Context is everything, and again, that's part of school--learning to appreciate these things.

I'm sorry, but while I understand she came up with a clever answer, it's not all about finding a clever answer. It's about learning to answer the question given.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

I'm sorry, but while I understand she came up with a clever answer, it's not all about finding a clever answer. It's about learning to answer the question given.

I guess this is why we homeschool. I hate standardized evaluation as the basis for learning.

Miranda

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by carmel23

Honestly, I don't think it matters if the OPs daughter did the worksheet correctly, didn't do it correctly, had proper instructions, or didn't.

I think the problem is that the OP's dd is in a class where:

1) the teacher has either not made any effort to actually ascertain the real ability (potential and actual) of the student,

2) or worse has made the effort in a *harmful* way (by trying to trick her, or "stump" her.

My feeling is that is doesn't take a lot of time for a perceptive kid to pick up on this and internalize it.

Perhaps all that is true and perhaps it's not, but based on the title of the thread and the OP, that didn't seem to be the issue. It seemed, at first before additional details were given, that the question was "My kid gave the wrong answer. How do I get the teacher to accommodate that?" There was no indication that the teacher was mean or lazy or not teaching or that the child was bored or being treated unfairly. It just seemed to read that she gave a wrong answer and was asked to correct it, as if that's some sort of crime if your child is gifted. And my opinion is, it isn't.

A teacher giving out poorly worded assignments isn't a gifted issue, it's a teaching issue.

I have a gifted kid. Sometimes he overthinks things. He assumes he knows what's being asked and skips the directions. He sometimes doesn't ask for help or clarification either because he feels like he shouldn't have to or because he's anxious or because he just assumes he's right. And when he does this stuff and comes up with a wrong answer, it's still a wrong answer. We don't coddle him or spend hours trying to figure out how he got there; we correct it. I'm not saying his thought processes don't amaze me or intrigue me or even amuse me, but at the end of the day I personally don't feel like I am doing him any favors by giving him the impression that his intelligence somehow insulates him from ever being wrong. I am NOT saying that's what the OP is doing. I am just saying that, based on the title and the question in the first post, I would say that a teacher shouldn't be expected to "respect" a wrong answer and a parent and child shouldn't be personally offended the child is told to make a correction. Again, based on the title and OP, which is really all I had to go on. The other info all trickled in later.

ETA: As far as the first grader internalizing things, perhaps. I think perceptive children also pick up on our own reactions. When we act like things are a huge deal, they reflect that. When we have a "that's OK, let's just correct it and move on" attitude, they reflect that as well.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

I hate standardized evaluation as the basis for learning.

Miranda

What about as the basis for tax returns? For prescription refills? Car alignments? Restaurant orders on your anniversary? The engineering of your dream-house?

Like it or not, communication is key and I really do not think schools are asking too much to have kids either understand context, or clarify.

Sorry to harp on this but it's massively unfair to ask the teacher to just "appreciate" every answer like it's art. Part of getting it right is understanding the question.

I really do not want someone waiting on my table (even a high-schooler) that thinks that she can interpret my order however she wants... or someone doing my taxes (not that I have them done, but just for example, LOL!) that thinks it's okay to write out the numbers... or aligning my car that thinks "align" means to make all the bars parallel... you know? Not to mention building my house!

If she does this often--kind of creates more interesting problems for herself--then she needs to work on it. There are PLENTY of ways in life to create interesting problems AND get the answer right. Letting her know that worksheets are the time to understand and answer, not the time to create interesting puzzles, is hardly going to ruin her self-esteem.

Though, in the OP, you ask how to make teachers do that... I guess asserting,

"Obviously the instructions aren't clear to her, though she's got great reading comprehension (see test score here). So can you work with her a little bit to make sure she knows what they are really asking?"

FWIW my reading comprehension was always my lowest score in school, though I did fabulously at deconstruction and analysis, and I'm a fast reader with simple comprehension that was usually at least ten grades ahead.

I just never saw the complete answer, a GOOD answer, in the multiple choices. Too often, I think I could not answer because the supposedly "right" answer had a word with a different nuance than what the correct answer would be in an open-ended question. Usually I thought, "We really need more information here." I completely understand what your daughter is going through, which is why I keep posting.

I guess with me, having always been the one to give the funny answers, and to ask a million questions about the instructions ("But Ms. Love, it says the right one but not right according to whom... according to me?") that made everyone else groan, I am really glad I learned how to clarify things. I find it's helped me a lot in life, and I'm glad I have both critical, out-of-the-box thinking skills, AND the skills I need to get the job done.

Sometimes, we do need to appreciate looking at things in another way.

[moominmamma]

We are talking about a six-year-old here. And we're talking about learning.

More than a few years will pass before she'll have to do a tax return. I fail to see why she needs to spend what should be her earliest most exciting experiences with structured academic learning instead focusing primarily on conforming to the expectations of standardized evaluation.

Of course context matters! Throughout those early years we need to be nurturing clarity of thinking: the ability to table a cogent argument, tell an engaging story, discover fallacies, see things from others' viewpoints and be a sensible skeptic. That should happen through conversation and experience though, not through experiencing inflexible standardized evaluation standards. We should not be demanding conformity from young children at the expense of logically valid alternative viewpoints. I think the early academic years should be exciting and stimulating, nurturing creativity and engagement with learning.

I think there is so much more to be gained from a genuine and delighted conversation about how the answer was unexpected, yet followed a logic of its own, how the question-asker could have been clearer, what clues the answerer might have been able to use to get a more accurate perception of the intent of the question. To me this is how kids learn "to look at things another way." Not by having their answers marked wrong and told to correct them.

I was raised in an alternative elementary education system with no grading and no standardized testing. Ditto for my kids. Instead we all got a lot of informal nurturing in critical thinking and creativity. Interestingly once in high school and subjected to standardized evaluations, we all excelled at multiple choice tests. So I would have to disagree strongly that right/wrong standardized evaluation is the only, or even the best way to prepare 6-year-olds to become young adults who can ace the MCAT.

Miranda

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

So I would have to disagree strongly that right/wrong standardized evaluation is the only, or even the best way to prepare 6-year-olds to become young adults who can ace the MCAT.

Miranda

Of course I'm not advocating that a child, gifted or not, should never be corrected. It is the information that this particular child is being "taught" is grossly inappropriate. I've 'known' the OP and her dd on this board for a long time now, for years! And it just saddens me to picture her trapped in the worksheet-o-rama.

And yes a child who goes to school to learn, yet who has not had the opportunity to learn, but is being put through this cruel farce for 'learning,' (learning what?! Exactly?)

This passage presents the idea a little differently:

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58756.html

"We have to be careful sometimes not to confuse the numeral with the
number. For example, a numeral "12" may have two digits, but the number
12 could be represented by numerals with other numbers of digits, or by
numerals where the concept of digit is meaningless."

and then:

"we do often use the word "number" to mean "numeral"
when it isn't important to make that distinction. I don't get upset if
someone says he's writing a number, when it's really a numeral he
wrote.

[captain optimism]

We had a similar issue with my son's first grade teacher. He's very interested in math and finds arithmetic intuitive and fun. She wanted him to "show his work." He didn't know what that meant. Sometimes he would write the answer and then add a random (and true!) equation in the margins, so he could make his first grade work look like a real mathematics paper! (He is such a goofus.) The teacher thought he didn't know how to do the basic addition and subtraction, because he couldn't show his thought process. In fact he was bored because the problems were precisely the same ones they'd had the previous year in kindergarten, and he remembered everything about kindergarten math. (Because he likes it!)

It became our job to tell him to show the work in the way the teacher wanted him to show it, because the point of the math curriculum was to set abstract ideas of quantity in real-world contexts. He had to draw something, which he found difficult. (Sometimes he drew a picture of his head, to mean "I already knew that"--and that was OK? ) But I did complain that the math curriculum was not interesting enough for my kid, who likes math and who had successfully learned his "math facts" (why do they call addition and subtraction up to ten math facts? Got me!) in kindergarten from the math curriculum there.

At the last or second-to-last meeting of the year with the teacher, she told us in an excited voice about how our DS had come up with his own math problems when he got a copy of the hundreds table. (Yeah, lady, we know. We live with him. We've been trying to tell you this all year.)

We've decided to work on the parts of worksheets that are challenging to our DS and to look for math enrichment and instruction elsewhere. He can always use the opportunity to write, he's a poor writer, and following directions is valuable too. You may have to add to the math curriculum at home as I am doing. I feel like a real wimp writing this, like I should have gone to school and verbally pummeled the teacher until she came up with better math for my child. I'm trying to practice allowing him to learn how to deal with adults who are nice people who don't teach the way I do...and sometimes that means making up for the school's obvious deficits in his area of interest.

[joensally]

Here's my internet armchair quarterbacking re the thread title and the concerns expressed by the OP. I think what's happening is that OP is hoping that this school will work and that resolution to the issue of a wildly out of norm child in a narrowly regimented school program is as simple as getting the teacher to be more flexible in how she marks the stream of worksheets.

Just sayin'.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

If she does this often--kind of creates more interesting problems for herself--then she needs to work on it.

And this is my armchair analysis: I think EdnaMarie hits the nail on the head here with describing the problem, but I think she's got the wrong solution.

The sentence should read:

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

If she does this often--kind of creates more interesting problems for herself--

then she needs to be given more interesting work!

OP, I'm so sorry for how useless this school is in dealing with your daughter, whether it's being useless in trying to assess her or useless intrying to teach her (they don't seem to know what they are doing). I think those who suggested looking at other options are probably right.
Though they do seem to generate the most impressive threads. I think the duck problem had us arguing for like 7 pages...

[EdnaMarie]

We are talking about a six-year-old here. And we're talking about learning.... instead focusing primarily on conforming to the expectations of standardized evaluation.

So, first, we're kind of talking cross-points here. I'm not talking about the worksheet culture of public schools. Too many worksheets is bad. It's bad for her, it's bad for most of the other kids, it's lazy, it's boring, it's not age-appropriate, it's not a robust curriculum, it's just. plain. bad.

I'm talking about learning to understand these rules, bit by bit, by learning to clarify and not expecting the world to conform to your way of thinking. It's okay to think differently and at the same time know that you will have to clarify more often. I think that's a better lesson to learn than, "The teacher needs to adapt to you, and the individual understanding of 33 other children, because it's all about you and the way YOU understand things."

If you want a curriculum that revolves around your kid, homeschool. It's a fantastic option for many, many reasons, especially with the right kid and parent.

If you want to put your child in school, accept that there will be some learning about other people's rules, vocabularies, and contexts, and that that is really okay.

And it just saddens me to picture her trapped in the worksheet-o-rama.

I *do* very much agree with this. I am taking this as a one-worksheet-per-subject thing, and not commenting on worksheets, per se. I don't think, if the child is doing written test work all day, it's appropriate at all, not for her, and hardly for ANY child.

I do hope the OP and her daughter find something that they can work with.

[EdnaMarie]

then she needs to be given more interesting work!

Then her parents need to take out a second mortgage on the house and send her to private school or homeschool! Or teach her how to doodle! Or buy an extra book of puzzles (it's not in the school budget, trust me, and it's not fair to ask the teacher to buy that in addition to her own chalk) and ask the teacher if she can do those when she's done with her assignments early because they are just so easy.

I'm not saying "work on it" means, "accept boring as your life". I'm saying, accept SOME things will be boring (they are, life sucks, get over it, move on to the fun stuff, please, nobody said filling in a timesheet would be enjoyable but even physicists and aid workers and firefighters do it!) and find creative outlets for your mental energy.

I don't think six is too young to start. I explain this to my four-year-old.

"Honey, I know you like to draw pictures for each letter in this book. But we need to respect the teacher. If you finish all your letters early, you can use your markers to draw pictures on these notecards and take them with you!" Win-win!