toddler freak-out moments, but are they really learning?

[ellemenope]

We had another freak-out moment yesterday. It involved the popular site starfall.com. A thread on the childhood forum reminded me to check it out again. I thought DD (28 months) might be interested in a simple word game.

Well, it was too easy for her. A picture of a rat would show along with _at , and DD would instantaneously point to the R, and she did that for about 30 words or so. Her concentration, quick understanding, speed, and ease were shocking. This was our freak-out moment.

Also, at the end of the first group, the four words appeared as a list, cat, bat, hat, rat, and DD turned to me and said, "look, all those words rhyme."

After watching a short video she wanted to know why AEIOU were different colors and had eyes, so I told her what a vowel was. She later told me that vowels go in-between consonants to make words. She got all that from my explanation and the video. I asked what letters were vowels today and she said A and O and then ran off.

Now, DD's strength by far is language. So, I am left wondering, how much of this is learning, and how much of it is her just learning words and spitting it back? Is this a language thing? Is this just a normal toddler thing?

For example. She has recently been asking questions about the human body. So, now she walks around saying things like "intestines are in my tummy. There is fecal matter in my intestines. Fecal matter is poop. Poop comes out my anus." or "I have two kidneys. Urine goes from my kidneys to my bladder and out my urethra."

How much of what she says is really understood? She has never even seen what an intestine looks like.

We do not follow any curriculum. We just follow her lead. We point things out to her. She asks questions. And, she sucks up any information provided to her. So, if she is learning, it is primarily from oral instruction with very little reinforcement from other types of teaching.

I believe DD to be exceptional in language, long-term memory, making connections and abstract analogies, empathy, and rote memorization. But, I am still not convinced that all toddler don't regurgitate information the same as DD. Is this style of quick effortless learning atypical as well? Is it even considered learning at all?

Has anyone thought about this? Please share your stories. TIA!

[no5no5]

I have no clue what is normal. But I will say that I think that the starfall thing is pretty darn advanced. DD was not doing that at that age, and she was reading at a 4th grade level by the time she was 3 1/2. But then, she began reading whole words and did not really show interest in or understanding of phonics until 3 or so. I still think she wouldn't do that part of starfall right these days...but she might strategically pick the right answer last.

As for the knowledge thing, I don't really know. When DD was that age there were lots of things that she'd ask about and we'd explain and she'd sort of parrot it back. I was never too impressed by that, though I thought it was pretty cute. What got me was when she'd tell me things I didn't know she knew, because she'd read it in a book or because she'd been doing some independent deep thinking and come up with something nobody had ever told her.

Anyway, cool stories. Thanks for sharing.

[physmom]

I think I get what you're talking about. We've often questioned what exactly DD understands about the world around her. For instance, she loves dinosaurs at the moment and can name quite a few. She can recognize them both in pictures or just the bones like at a museum. But does she get the concept that these bones used to be living breathing animals? I doubt it but sometimes I'm surprised... It's the same things with planets. She'll look at a book and knows many names, also the sun, moon, etc. When she looks at the sky she'll name the moon, sun, and stars but does she get that the planets are actually up there?

While I do think exposure is a big thing you also have to be able to understand what you're exposed to. Even if you showed rhymes to a kid everyday if they're not ready to understand them they probably won't. The tricky part is you never truly know what another family is doing... how often they rhyme with a child or read to a child, which also brings up the nature vs. nurture questions. At best you can just guess and look at averages but as everyone knows there's a number of caveats to that.

Lately, we've been seeing DD show a bigger interest in math sort of things. Shapes, enumeration, counting, legos etc. I'm kind of surprised because for a long time she showed more verbal skills than anything else. Some of the things that she's being doing lately.. well, I really wonder what's going on in her head! For example, yesterday we were riding the elevator up to our floor and she tried to get off too soon and I told her look we're only on the 7th floor it's too soon. Then I asked what floor we live on and she said "nine" but I told her "no we live one floor up" so she answer "10!". I was impressed that she seemed to grasp adding one to 9 was 10.

But at this point I don't think it really matters. She enjoys what we're doing and is exposed to many new and interesting things, which is what she needs right now. As she ages we'll probably get a better idea of her strengths/weaknesses and how much she does actually understand (if she chooses to share that with us). For now I'm just enjoying the small insights that I get into what she's thinking, which is pretty insane and entertaining.

[ellemenope]

Thanks guys. I think we are on the same page.

I think I am more impressed with the questions she asks than the rote knowledge she seems to learn so quickly and remember forever.

FWIW I am hugely impressed by learning sight words and the number stuff. Is it just because DD does not gravitate that way?

[cdahlgrd]

Of course she is learning. Rote memorization is learning. It is often the first step to gaining a full understanding of a topic.  This is why memorization is emphasized in the beginning of a classical education. 

Your daughter sounds wonderful. She is definitely not normal. Most kids are still learning the last few letters of the alphebet and starting to learns a few sight words in Kindergarten.  If you want a more detailed developmental chart www.pbs.org has a good one under the parents info tab.  It can be interesting to go see that you child is more on a 5 year old level in learing letters and numbers, but still at a 2-3 year level emotionally, etc.

[ellemenope]

Originally Posted by cdahlgrd 

Of course she is learning. Rote memorization is learning. It is often the first step to gaining a full understanding of a topic.  This is why memorization is emphasized in the beginning of a classical education. 

Your daughter sounds wonderful. She is definitely not normal. Most kids are still learning the last few letters of the alphebet and starting to learns a few sight words in Kindergarten.  If you want a more detailed developmental chart www.pbs.org has a good one under the parents info tab.  It can be interesting to go see that you child is more on a 5 year old level in learing letters and numbers, but still at a 2-3 year level emotionally, etc.

Oh, thank you.  I had stopped looking at that site about a year ago.  For some reason that website of all the developmental websites makes me the most uneasy.  It did feel a little bit better to look at the 5 year old level.

[ellemenope]

We had another freak-out moment.

At the history museum yesterday we walked thought the American presidents exhibit with DD talking about who was who.   At the end there was a pictures of all the presidents in order.  DD could name about 10 or 11 and made these comments:

• George Washington was the first president.  He has funny white hair because he is a founding father.
• Abraham Lincoln is a funny looking man with a beard.  Daddy doesn't have a beard.  He has a scratchy face. Abraham Lincoln wears a top hat.
• William Taft could hardly fit in a bathtub because he was so fat.
• Theodore Roosevelt likes teddy bears.
• Richard Nixon was a bad president.
• Jimmy Carter was the president when Daddy was born.
• Ronald Reagan was president when mommy was born.
• W Bush was the president when I was born.
• Rock Obama is the president right now.  I say "rock" Obama.

She learned all that in about 20 minutes from casually walking through an exhibit with us.  Things like this make me feel like we are dealing with something different here.  Even if this is just fact regurgitation she is really good at it.  How did she remember all those names and pronounce most of them exactly right.  She learned a lot yesterday at the museum in addition to almost 15 names she had never heard before.

[Marissamom]

from this thread and a couple of your other posts I would say your dd probably has an eidetic memory, or is at least close. but to me it also sounds like she is able to put things together in a way that's advanced for her age. it will be really interesting to see how she progresses in the next couple of years. 

[ellemenope]

I don't even know if I believe in eidetic memories.  I certainly have never come across a person in real life with one.

I will say I am a strong v/s learner and have a very strong memory when is comes to how things relate to each other in space.  I had a few parlor tricks when I was in college that involved me knowing where every single entry started in a particular dictionary.  If someone asked me to point to the word "framework," I was able to point to exactly where that entry started on the page (double columned) with my eyes closed.  exactly. I could tell you if it was on the left page or the right page, in the first column or the second, at the top, middle, or bottom of the page.   And, I could do this for at least 75% (so thousands) of the words in the dictionary.  I didn't even try to learn this.  It just happened.  And, there are a ton of other more practical applications of this v/s memory.  This is just how my brain works.  It is hard for me to comprehend that others' do not work like this.  But, no, I could not read pages of print in my head.

But as for my DD...  She has not seemed to show any proclivity for v/s learning.  She is not especially into puzzles or legos (like I was.)  Although, she is still young.  But, it certainly does take her only a few repetitions to learn something aurally.  (my Dh is an a/s leaner.)  She has in the past week learned the names of at least 25 presidents and a couple of facts about each one.  She would probably have learned them all, but I don't even really know them that well myself or care to talk about them.  She constantly wants to talk about these presidents, and look up their pictures.  Again, we are just amazed at how fast she learns these things, and confused as to why she feels the need to do this and how much she really understands.

Today we had this conversation, when I pointed out a large building in the shape of a castle:

Me:  Oh, look there is a castle.  The king lives there.

DD:  We don't have kings.  Does the president live there?

Me:  Oh, yeah, you're right.

DD:  No, the president doesn't live there.  Barack Obama lives in the White House.

We went to go see Medieval Times.  (FYI, It was pretty violent.)  DD asked why they were fighting.  I fumbled an explanation.  She concluded it was like war.  She said, "This is like war.  War is bad.  The opposite of war is peace.  Peace is good.  I like peace." 

I mean, sometimes I think I am dealing with an old soul here.  I have no idea where she comes up with these things.

She also leaned to say the Pledge of Allegiance the other day in the car.  She asked me to say it probably 6 times in succession, and then a minute went by and I heard her say, "indibisable, with liberty and justice for all."  So, I asked her to start from the beginning.  She couldn't, so I started again.  I got two words out before she finished the entire thing for me, only mispronouncing republic (uh-public) and indivisible (indibisable.)  What was most interesting about this episode was how adamant she was that I keep repeating the pledge over and over.  I had no idea that she was memorizing it.  I thought she was just exerting her toddler will on me again, and as long as it kept her quiet...

Now, in the next coming days I'd like to explain to her what those words mean.  She has already asked what it means to be "under god."

[Roar]

I believe DD to be exceptional in language, long-term memory, making connections and abstract analogies, empathy, and rote memorization. But, I am still not convinced that all toddler don't regurgitate information the same as DD. Is this style of quick effortless learning atypical as well? Is it even considered learning at all?

Has anyone thought about this? Please share your stories. TIA!

I remember asking very similar questions about my preschooler who is now a teenager. In retrospect it now seems kind of funny to me. Like I was okay with saying yes he could make amazing connections, understand abstract information, had a good memory, was great with language... but, then I wanted to play denial and act like that is something other than freaky smart. In fact all of those things are signs of being smart and taken all together they are a sign of being very smart. It is really silly to try to minimize it by saying it isn't really learning. This is exactly the sort of learning kids that age have accessible to them (it isn't like she has the option to be expressing it by writing sonnets or programming computers or something). In time I believe you will see all that information gathering leads to increasingly impressive observations and eventually as her motor skills and other maturities progress more output in forms we recognize as something other than just spitting back information. So, she will be writing, creating, composing, experimenting, etc. and then it will be obvious how the phrase she's in right now fed where she ends up.

You are right that as she's talking about intestines or Teddy Roosevelt she probably doesn't really understand the information in depth. But, in my very unscientific understanding, what is happening is that she's creating lots of storage areas in her brain so more and more information sticks more easily and more and more connections will be made more readily. At least that's how it seemed to work for our kid was that it was like he was building this massive database which over time made for stronger connections as he matured and was more readily able to use his intelligence to go indepth into areas of interest.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by ellemenope 
She has in the past week learned the names of at least 25 presidents and a couple of facts about each one.  She would probably have learned them all, but I don't even really know them that well myself or care to talk about them.  She constantly wants to talk about these presidents, and look up their pictures.  Again, we are just amazed at how fast she learns these things, and confused as to why she feels the need to do this and how much she really understands.

She needs the presidents placemat. It was the source of much happiness and contentment during that phase at our home. I'm with you that I don't care about the presidents or memorization so it was hard for me to get into the spirit of it, but ultimately it was a happy thing and it does make it easier to learn US history if you know all the presidents.

Also, I would start keeping your eyes out for a set of encyclopedias on Craig's list or a library sale. She's probably love Childcraft right now and before long a more standard set like World Book or Encyclopedia Britannica. I bet she would love them.

[Tigerle]

Well, I think you are going to turn out to be the parent of one of the number of PG children on this board who make the rest of us wonder what they're doing here...

Seriously, I'm assuming I have an MG child and I still had toddler freakout moments and have preschooler freakout moments now, but nowhere near to what you are experiencing. But as long as you don't have to worry about other people's reactions (I think that's when it gets really hard, particularly when it's people you can't avoid, like teachers), why don't you just enjoy the ride. Yes, I think they are really learning, and really making connections. And I do think that it pays to really care about the answers you give, such as to the question what does "under God" mean. Actually, that's the kind of question that DS would ask when still under three (though way closer to three than your DD is) and it freaked me out and really threw me at first. Particularly as he began to freak out about death at that age.

These days, DS, who goes to Catholic preschool, is really getting into God and praying, and understanding what heaven is, where it begins and ends, where God is in relation to us, how does he hear us pray...and I will have to stop listening to the news channel in the car soon because he is beginning to listen and ask questions, and we have started discussing crime and punishment, war and peace, law and morality, social justice...I am on firmer ground than I was during his science phase but it is still so disconcerting when you know they are nowhere near emotionally able to cope with what they can understand! There is stuff about this ride that is not so enjoyable, I concede.

[loraxc]

Do you have any field guides? Both my kids have adored field guides as toddlers. It's a good place to take that desire for rote memorization, IMO, and as she gets older it can turn into a great hobby and lovely life skill. I also enjoy reading them to them because it's something I find interesting (as opposed to construction equipment). My DD is a really good birdwatcher now--has a life list and participates in various online birding projects. Meanwhile, her little brother is going through the same stage she went through at about this age, just going through favorite guides over and over again and naming the birds or herps. It's also very cute to hear a 2yo saying "Three-toed amphiuma!" in tones of great excitement.

[loraxc]

Oh, and maps and flags! DD was really obsessed with her world map at that age and used to know tons and tons of flags. That stuff I think she's forgotten, as we have not reinforced it much, if at all. So in some cases, yes, it's just temporary brain loading and sort of superficial. OTOH, she was somewhat famous last year at her school for being the kindergartener who could ID all the states on the map. (That's because she has a US map placemat.)

[blizzard_babe]

DS1 (2 1/2) keeps asking me to teach him how to read. He asked me once last week, and I kind of hoped he had forgotten, but nope. He's asked me three times today. He knows all of his letters (well, lowercase p, b, d, and q still confuse him), and can recognize his first name (and spell by rote memory his first and last name) and a few other words, but... it was always kind of a game. He learned the letters by repeatedly having us read an ABC picture book we got from Goodwill, and his name and the other words because they're words we're always writing, and point out to him. He's good in other areas as well... He can count objects with one-to-one correspondence (has been able to for a good long while) if we can get him to focus. He can do jigsaw puzzles with relative ease (if we can get past the, "Mama, YOU do it!" stage of puzzle-doing). He is probably better at Memory than I am, if we can, again, hold his focus. I was fine keeping the whole letters thing as a fun game. But nooooooooo... kiddo had to go and become aware that he's missing something in them thar words in them thar books.

Now, I'm perfectly CAPABLE of teaching a child to read. I have a Masters in Education . But I'm SOOOOO not that parent. I see no need to teach a kid to read at this age. But he's asked, repeatedly. He understands that adults can make sense of all the letters and turn them into a story, and gosh darn it, why can't he? 

So... what do I *DO* about a two and a half year-old who wants to learn to read? I've wanted to ask, but the Toddler forum seems inappropriate, and he's not old enough for the Childhood Years forum. I've heard about threads about three year-olds getting moved, never mind a two year-old. And anyway, he's NOT ready for the CY forum in many ways. He's a two year-old. Throws spectacular tantrums. Runs his toy bus over the dog. Just had to be told not to eat green beans with his toes. Needs a diaper at night. All this, and he wants to READ, and fully understands what "reading" is. And as for posting here, I'm not sure it's appropriate. He's NOT gifted, maybe. Or he is, maybe. He's only two and a half; how the heck should I know?

And, again, what the heck do I do with a two and a half year old who wants to learn to read?

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe 

And, again, what the heck do I do with a two and a half year old who wants to learn to read?

I'd suggest talking about how learning to read is a process, how he has already made some steps by learning the letters, how it usually takes years for children to learn to read as well as most adults read, and how you are happy to help him if he has any questions.  What I would not suggest is formal lessons at this point, though he really may be asking to play school with you, which you can probably accommodate.  IMO when 2-year-old children are ready to learn to read they teach themselves, and if they don't teach themselves it probably means they are not ready. 

[blizzard_babe]

Originally Posted by no5no5 

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe 

And, again, what the heck do I do with a two and a half year old who wants to learn to read?

I'd suggest talking about how learning to read is a process, how he has already made some steps by learning the letters, how it usually takes years for children to learn to read as well as most adults read, and how you are happy to help him if he has any questions.  What I would not suggest is formal lessons at this point, though he really may be asking to play school with you, which you can probably accommodate.  IMO when 2-year-old children are ready to learn to read they teach themselves, and if they don't teach themselves it probably means they are not ready. 

(NAK) thanks. with the other stuff, it's been relatively easy to draw the line between teaching and just following his lead, because it has involved normal toddler/preschooler stuff that he has just progressed through really quickly. it's normal to play memory with an older toddler... ds1 is just really good at it. it's normal to count things with someone his age; he just caught on and moved to 'independent practice' of the exact same task. neither involved doing anything out of the ordinary; he just took the next logical step on his own.

in reading (vs just letter memorization), it seems like there's this point where it's a whole different skill and i have to draw the line and say, 'nope, everything across THAT line is teaching and everything on THIS side of the line is just following along and providing support.'

i'm sure i'm over-thinking all this, though.

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by blizzard_babe 

in reading (vs just letter memorization), it seems like there's this point where it's a whole different skill and i have to draw the line and say, 'nope, everything across THAT line is teaching and everything on THIS side of the line is just following along and providing support.'

i'm sure i'm over-thinking all this, though.

No, I agree that there is a line.  I guess to me reading books and answering questions and playing games with the goal of having fun (as opposed to the goal of making your child learn something) are clearly not teaching (though others have disagreed with me in the past).  And to me the most important things for a very young child is that he does not feel at all pressured (especially when it comes to learning something so advanced so early) and that he does feel empowered to be in charge of his own learning.  I wouldn't cross that line into taking charge and beginning to teach, not at 2.

[blizzard_babe]

Originally Posted by no5no5 

No, I agree that there is a line.  I guess to me reading books and answering questions and playing games with the goal of having fun (as opposed to the goal of making your child learn something) are clearly not teaching (though others have disagreed with me in the past).  And to me the most important things for a very young child is that he does not feel at all pressured (especially when it comes to learning something so advanced so early) and that he does feel empowered to be in charge of his own learning.  I wouldn't cross that line into taking charge and beginning to teach, not at 2.

That pretty much sums up how I feel on the matter. Him asking to be taught just threw me for a loop, because it involves... Teaching, as opposed to just playing along. I think we're just going to leave it alone for now, like you said. He loves being read to, so if he asks, I can just say yes and then read him an easy reader type book.

It was just kind of one of those mind-blowing moments, you know?

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by ellemenope 

Thanks guys. I think we are on the same page.

I think I am more impressed with the questions she asks than the rote knowledge she seems to learn so quickly and remember forever.
 

Yes, I think this is the difference. We have friends whose son I would consider average intelligence. They teach him what I consider parlor tricks to make other people impressed with "what he knows." If you talk to him, you will realize that he doesn't actually know whatever it is. Mom & Dad have just taught him a couple of big vocab words. For example, he could "write his name" by early 2, but he didn't know his letters. When you watched him, he was drawing something he'd been shown repeatedly (he'd turn the paper to make the letters). Now, at 4.5, he still doesn't recognize all of his letters, even if he has known how to write his name by rote since age 2. He says he can "play chess," but when I was talking to him about it, he only knows "the short guy and the one on the horse." He's not actually learned chess, but his parents push him to tell others that he learned to play chess. The kid didn't understand Chutes & Ladders at our house, ya know. But Mom & Dad seem to revel in others thinking their child is smart, and in the end, it makes me sad for him because it 1) gives him a false sense of accomplishment and 2) he's not really getting what he needs in favor of what they think is cool.

So, yes, I think you're right in that it's more about the ability to think & question that's indicative of giftedness, or at least that's how I view it. I could drill DC with all kinds of facts, and they would regurgitate them, but to what end?