Really? A judge can force this?!? - Page 2

[meemee]

ok i am TOTALLY LOST here.

how can a judge legally do that?

it seems to me an ACLU issue - if you want to go that way.

essentially it is saying all single divorced parents HAVE TO BE married. they cant live together. common law cant apply to them.

that is taking away our first amendment isnt it.

i have to say i am surprised. this was a judge whose known you since a little girl hasnt he? ah but then you are a bad girl. liing in sin

unfortunately it means MORE bullshit for you.

have you booked your flight or hotel to show you are going to get married at VI in jan.

any emails that you can print out with headers.

i hope you can stall the case till next year.

[GoBecGo]

Ok.  I was a single mama, i am now a co-habiting parent with a blended family (one DD with XP, one with my now-partner who i refer to, for confusing reasons, as DH but to whom i am NOT married and NOT intending to marry).  I am actually opposed to marriage (for me, i don't care what anyone else does) and i am STAGGERED that a judge could tell me i have to get married.  Staggered.  Surely that isn't something a judge can rule?

[VocalMinority]

#1, That sounds really surprising!  Indiana's a pretty conservative state, but 13 years ago when my ex and I agreed and put in writing that neither of us would have boyfriends/girlfriends spend the night when the kids were with us, attorneys scoffed at how ridiculous and unenforceable that was.  "No judge would ever presume to get that involved in your love life!"  And later, when he only became interested in having overnight visits AFTER he started shacking up with a girl I *knew* he wasn't serious about (i.e., she wasn't going to be a lasting part of our kids' lives), I COULD NOT FIND an attorney willing to stand in front of a judge and make the argument that my ex and I should stick to our agreement...an agreement HE drafted and signed. 

#2, If the judge really does give you problems, get prepared to appeal.  I can't imagine that any sanctions he would give you could stand up to an appeal, especially since his pet clause isn't even in your orders.  Besides, the spirit of the judge's approach is that it's better for kids not to form attachments that FEEL like family, with people who aren't going to stick around.  But if you and your partner have already stuck together for 3 years and are only a couple months from your wedding, obviously he's not some guy they're going to start calling "Daddy Joe", only to have him disappear from their lives by spring!!!  I mean, there's moralizing and then there's just silliness.

#3, What kind of society have we created, when there's a financial DISadvantage to you marrying the man you love, live with and are raising children with???

[Super~Single~Mama]

TOTALLY off topic, but GoBecGo - PLEASE tell me thats your placenta!  It totally freaked me out for a minute until I figured out what it was!!!

[GoBecGo]

LOL, yes, it's my placenta (or DD2's..?).  It was heart-shaped, with a velamentous and marginal insertion and a true knot in the cord, and we had an uneventful 55minute first stage with 6mins of pushing and a 20min 3rd stage, apgars 10, 10, 10 at HOME.  I like looking at it because so many doctors i know freak out at ONE of those "complications" as a possibility and i had 2 of them cited as "dead baby" cards when i was PG with DD1, yet we had a bunch and everything was fine.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Wow!  I'm so glad everything went so smoothly!!  I wish I could see the picture a little bigger so that I could pick all that out (I can tell its heart shaped, but nothing else)!

Placenta's are pretty cool, it just took me a second to figure out what that was!

Sorry Steph for thread-jacking! 

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Sorry Steph for thread-jacking! 

LOL! No problem ;)

I don't want to start a new thread just for this but holy crap I am so frustrated! So I called ex on Thursday morning and he ignored both his cell and home phone (guess it's a good thing it wasn't an emergency?). Then Thursday night he called ds. During his call ds had to go pee so threw the phone at me. I picked it up and explained to ex that ds was peeing and would be back in a minute. I asked (very politely... y'all would be proud of me!) if he had seen that I called. He said yes, but he didn't want to call me back until it was time to call ds. Okaaaay. So I asked if I could call him back after ds was in bed so we could discuss some stuff. He told me "I'm busy with the baby tonight. I'll send you a text tomorrow morning letting you know when I can talk". So this morning comes and I didn't hear from him at all. Then tonight I got a text from him. I don't know if I can post the exact message (mods.... can I?) but the basics of it is he doesn't want to talk to me unless there's an emergency with ds. And if there's an emergency with ds he'll be willing to talk to me Sunday afternoon. WTF?!? So not only is he unwilling to even talk to me about parenting issues, but we have to schedule emergencies? So if we were in a car accident tonight I'm "not allowed" to contact him until Sunday afternoon??

Seriously. That blows my mind. And it's in text form so the Judge can clearly see it. If the Judge wasn't pissed about the marriage thing I would be sooo going after sole custody right now. He just proved he doesn't want to even talk to me about anything that's related to his joint legal custody (school, medical, religious). DS has an ARC meeting Tuesday (for his annual review for school). This is where we make all his goals for the next year and decide what services he'll receive. It's a pretty big deal! I had actually planned on talking to ex about that and getting his input (since he's claiming he wants to be involved with ds's life I figured that would be a good way to start). I was going to see if he wanted to be able to call into the meeting (it's at a time where he wouldn't be working so there's no reason he can't call in and contribute). But..... it's not an emergency so I'm "not allowed" to contact him about it.

And yet he wants to co-parent?!?

ARGH!

[doubledutch]

what a ... um ... (sigh) well you know. hmm. what a matt thing to say/do. it's not like you call him all the time for stupid crap or bug him with details of your personal life. at least you have the text.

[smeep]

Matt is completely nuts, IMO. But we already knew that, heh. I agree with PPs about postponing as much as possible and getting proof (tickets, etc.) that the wedding IS set for 1/1/11.

Just a question, though... I know your plan is to basically overwhelm him with financial responsibilities to the point that he hopefully just signs over his rights and Jason (O's REAL dad as far as O and I'm pretty sure everyone else is concerned!) can adopt Owen. But I was just wondering....if he were to sign over his rights, would that include you waiving the back money he's already racked up to that point? I'm *thinking* that signing over rights doesn't always automatically mean that, but I could be wrong. And, if he normally would still owe everything up to that point, would you be willing to offer waiving it in order to get him to sign over his rights? This is really just my own curiosity, so don't mind me. :)

[cycle]

I am sure he has been advised to keep communications with you to writing, which you should be doing too.  I would not be communicating anything to him verbally because it ends up being your word against his.  You should be emailing or texting him about anything related to O, that way you have proof  that you let him know.  If you don't he will just deny that you ever told him of meetings, appointments, etc. 

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by smeep 

Matt is completely nuts, IMO. But we already knew that, heh. I agree with PPs about postponing as much as possible and getting proof (tickets, etc.) that the wedding IS set for 1/1/11.

Just a question, though... I know your plan is to basically overwhelm him with financial responsibilities to the point that he hopefully just signs over his rights and Jason (O's REAL dad as far as O and I'm pretty sure everyone else is concerned!) can adopt Owen. But I was just wondering....if he were to sign over his rights, would that include you waiving the back money he's already racked up to that point? I'm *thinking* that signing over rights doesn't always automatically mean that, but I could be wrong. And, if he normally would still owe everything up to that point, would you be willing to offer waiving it in order to get him to sign over his rights? This is really just my own curiosity, so don't mind me. :)

I think legally he would still have to pay the back money (if any) that he owed until that point. I, obviously, would waive that if it was what was going to sway him into signing over his rights.

Originally Posted by cycle 

I am sure he has been advised to keep communications with you to writing, which you should be doing too.  I would not be communicating anything to him verbally because it ends up being your word against his.  You should be emailing or texting him about anything related to O, that way you have proof  that you let him know.  If you don't he will just deny that you ever told him of meetings, appointments, etc. 

Yes, I get that. And most of our communication is in writing anyway (well, sorta, I write emails/texts and he completely ignores them). The thing is- in his text he didn't say he wanted to keep communication to writing and asked me to text/email what I was wanting to talk to him about. He was *very* clear that he didn't want to talk to me. Period. About anything. In any form. Unless it was an emergency with ds, in which case I would have to wait 3 days to tell him

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen 

Yes, I get that. And most of our communication is in writing anyway (well, sorta, I write emails/texts and he completely ignores them). The thing is- in his text he didn't say he wanted to keep communication to writing and asked me to text/email what I was wanting to talk to him about. He was *very* clear that he didn't want to talk to me. Period. About anything. In any form. Unless it was an emergency with ds, in which case I would have to wait 3 days to tell him

Umm....Does he think hes doing himself favors or what??  Cause, uh, thats not going to look good. 

[BabyBearsMummy]

Steph I am so very happy that you are not with Owen's sperm donor and you and Owen have a wonderful man like Jason in your lives. Sperm donor is a real piece of work

[lilyka]

I am really surprised the judge even cares.  I do have a clause in my divorce decree saying no overnight guests of the opposite sex while the girls are in our care but it is something we agreed too.  and yeah, it is pretty uninforcable when it comes right down to it but it could come up in a custody battle (should one come up) I could take him to court for contempt if I really wanted to, but neither is likely to happen.  I just hope he respects this agreement as much as I do.  I cannot imagine a judge caring if one of us chose to live with our partner rather than marry them.  The judge is imposing religious beliefs on you.  Thats not ok.  I hope you can just delay being in court until the end of the year.  Shouldn't be hard with the holidays and such approaching.  

If it does come down to it, what kind of proof would the judge need that partner has moved out?  I mean you are a few days from getting married...of course he would have started moving his stuff in.  and if I was that close to getting married to someone of course they would be over at my house all the time.  Could he sleep somewhere else ocaisionally so he could say he was living at his friends house?  At this point in your relationship would "living somewhere else" be just sleeping somewhere else?  Does the judge care if he is living somewhere else or is he just hell bent on you being married?

[Adaline'sMama]

I know someone (in lvlle) who was in family court and she had a disagreement with the judge over her choice to be cohabiting with her boyfriend. He made a big deal about it and she petitioned the court to ask him to recuse himself. He did, and a different judge was appointed to the case. Just an option...

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by lilyka 

I am really surprised the judge even cares.  (((SNIP!)))

If it does come down to it, what kind of proof would the judge need that partner has moved out?  I mean you are a few days from getting married...of course he would have started moving his stuff in.  and if I was that close to getting married to someone of course they would be over at my house all the time.  Could he sleep somewhere else ocaisionally so he could say he was living at his friends house?  At this point in your relationship would "living somewhere else" be just sleeping somewhere else?  Does the judge care if he is living somewhere else or is he just hell bent on you being married?

For the first part- imagine a very small town (I think he's the only judge in the county) and he and his family are very religious. My lawyer says that shortly after we got our court order then this judge started automatically putting a clause in every court order that there are to be no overnight guests of the opposite sex who are not related. Apparently when this all came about earlier this summer the Judge did think it was in our court order but my lawyer pulled it out and showed him that it was never ordered. So I think part of him is ticked at himself for not putting it in the order but he's not letting go of it.

I have no idea on the second part. That seems completely insane if a Judge would want dp to actually MOVE out of our house (including his stuff) for a couple weeks and then move it back in. That is, without a doubt, detrimental to ds. DS has autism and change is bad enough for him. How the hell would I explain that Jason was moving out for a couple weeks and then moving back in?!? That doesn't even make sense to me, it surely isn't going to make sense to a 7 year old with autism! I guess if it comes down to it Jason will go spend nights at his parents house. We would continue to follow all our routines (Jason coming home after work, eating dinner with us, doing our normal routines and helping put ds to bed). Then after ds is asleep dp can go sleep at his parents house. On certain mornings where ds knows dp is home when he gets up I guess we would have dp wake up early and come to our house so ds isn't disturbed when dp isn't here when he wakes up. And doing that I see absolutely no benefit to ds at all. Ds wouldn't even know dp wasn't sleeping at our house. So wtf is the point?!?

This whole thing has nothing to do with ds. DS is not confused by the situation (I was talking to him about something unrelated and it became very clear that he doesn't even remember from before we moved in with dp). Ds actually believes we're already married (he thinks we're getting married again so we can have another baby.... lol.... he's under the impression that every time you want to have a baby you have to get married again ). DS is not affected at all by dp and I living together without being married. It would be a billion times more detrimental to ds to have a Judge order that dp move out of the house until January or to order that ds and I move out of the house until January. Any of those options will turn his life upside down, during which is already a hard time for him (from October to March of every year is the absolute worst time for ds). This is all about the Judge being on his high horse and trying to impose his religious beliefs on others. If he were to actually examine this specific case he would quickly realize that there is not any harm coming to ds through the current arrangement.

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

I know someone (in lvlle) who was in family court and she had a disagreement with the judge over her choice to be cohabiting with her boyfriend. He made a big deal about it and she petitioned the court to ask him to recuse himself. He did, and a different judge was appointed to the case. Just an option...

Interesting! We will have to consider that if it comes down to it. Unfortunately there is not another Judge in that county so I'm not sure how it would work. We've considered getting jurisdiction changed to here but a) the current Judge would have to agree to it (and we don't think he will because he'll see it as a way to get around the whole marriage thing we're currently in) and b) we have no idea what a Judge here would order. It's possible we could get a very pro-father judge and they could order weeks of visits at a time, ya know?

[RollerCoasterMama]

Interesting! We will have to consider that if it comes down to it. Unfortunately there is not another Judge in that county so I'm not sure how it would work. We've considered getting jurisdiction changed to here but a) the current Judge would have to agree to it (and we don't think he will because he'll see it as a way to get around the whole marriage thing we're currently in) and b) we have no idea what a Judge here would order. It's possible we could get a very pro-father judge and they could order weeks of visits at a time, ya know?

 

You're so close now, it's probably not worth it...but just as an FYI...it doesn't matter if there's no other judge in the county.  They'd just pull one in from another county nearby.  I clerked in a super rural area.  My one judge actually covered two counties!  But he and the other judges in the region would cover for each other all the time if there was a conflict of some sort.  And in a rural area, someone was always related to someone, so it happened pretty regularly!

Good luck!  You're in the home stretch!

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by StephandOwen 

This whole thing has nothing to do with ds. DS is not confused by the situation (I was talking to him about something unrelated and it became very clear that he doesn't even remember from before we moved in with dp). Ds actually believes we're already married (he thinks we're getting married again so we can have another baby.... lol.... he's under the impression that every time you want to have a baby you have to get married again ). DS is not affected at all by dp and I living together without being married. It would be a billion times more detrimental to ds to have a Judge order that dp move out of the house until January or to order that ds and I move out of the house until January. Any of those options will turn his life upside down, during which is already a hard time for him (from October to March of every year is the absolute worst time for ds). This is all about the Judge being on his high horse and trying to impose his religious beliefs on others. If he were to actually examine this specific case he would quickly realize that there is not any harm coming to ds through the current arrangement.

Then ask for a hearing.  If he wants to put it in the order, you are WELL within your rights to request a hearing before any changes in the current order.  He's a JUDGE - he's required to act ethically.  If he refuses you a hearing for something like this, I would report it to the Bar Association since its unethical for him to order such a HUGE change in a child's life just over a stupid marriage certificate.  Thats just my .02.  You could also ask to be given another judge if you file a complaint with the Bar association.  I also agree with the pp who said that judges have to fill in when there are conflicts of interest - a judge can't make the decisions when a family member is a party - so either a judge from another court fills in, or someone from another county.

[Minxie]

Steph, is it Seasonal Affective Disorder? It affects me every year, especially when I live in the northern part of the country as the sunlight is weaker here. I take Vitamin D to combat it.

Originally Posted by StephandOwen 

(from October to March of every year is the absolute worst time for ds).

[Smithie]

You are sooooo very close here. If I were you, I'd ask Jason to spend the night at his mom's house until your wedding. That, plus the frickin' trip itinerary, should convince the judge that you are willing to sin no more. It's revolting that he cares about that, but he does and he has the power here... he needs to hear about the insurance thing again, though. Even if he won't do anything, the noncompliance needs to go on record. 

Sending some medical bills over to the friend of the court is a great idea. Really, the friend of the court should get extra bills from you every. single. week. Every penny that comes out of Matt's bank account is a step closer to him signing over his rights - and isn't it nice that you'll have a proper legal husband to adopt DS when he finally does! Mazel tov on your upcoming nuptials!