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Can you be a Christian if you don't believe in Jesus? - Page 2

post #21 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artichokie View Post

I think that religion aside, you can totally be culturally Christian.  I agree with previous posters that technically to be Christian you must believe Jesus is God's son, but I also have observed that there are A LOT of people who were raised culturally Christian.  Their entire childhood is routed in values, traditions, and routines that are most identified a being Christian in origin but they do not subscribe to the underlying belief system. 

 

Excellent point.  I am culturally Catholic but I am not Christian.  To the OP - why does it matter to you?  Are you looking for a community to fit into, or some structured sort of system?

post #22 of 126


Quote:

Originally Posted by Artichokie View Post

I think that religion aside, you can totally be culturally Christian.  I agree with previous posters that technically to be Christian you must believe Jesus is God's son, but I also have observed that there are A LOT of people who were raised culturally Christian.  Their entire childhood is routed in values, traditions, and routines that are most identified a being Christian in origin but they do not subscribe to the underlying belief system. 

 



I completely agree with this. I am culturally Christian (well, Catholic really) but no longer religiously so. That fact doesn't negate my entire upbringing however.

 

To the OP, you might also want to take a look at a Quaker meeting. Some (often the ones called churches) are very Christian, but many meetings, are not so tethered, and certainly individual members are free to believe what they want. But if you really are drawn to Judaism, I think you should explore that as well.

post #23 of 126

I'm going to go with No. The word Christian comes from the fact that you believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God. There are other religions that believe in the same God and not Jesus... maybe you could look into one of those?

post #24 of 126

i don't know if anyone else has gone this direction yet, but i think that it deserves some thought "believe what about jesus?"

 

i know that you assert the idea that you don't believe he is the son of god. but what does that mean, exactly? looking to the history of the church and various denominations (and gnostic ideologies), who exactly jesus was (historically, mythologically, and otherwise) and what exactly the son of God means (historically, mythologically and otherwise) is quite a complex question with *many, many* answers.

 

Some of those answers would come out quite shocking to the modern christian, particularly neo-christianity of the united states, which range from everything to the idea that no historical jesus existed, and he is merely a compilation of many stories, a retelling of older myths from the region, and that his lesson speaks largely of an individual's capacity for a higher consciousness/awareness/etc etc etc. Essentially, there is no jesus to believe in, only ideas, and even those are up for personal exploration, expression, and so on.

 

keep digging a bit, and we also discover that most of the christian holidays are simply compilations of various holidays from around the world, but with a particular relationship with christianity throughout the last 1000 years or so, and within the US, a mixture of traditions from many nations and perspectives, combined into the christmas we would see today. Fascinating stuff really.

 

That being said, i do know christians (particularly quakers) who are atheist, but resonate with the teachings of jesus and the basic christian practices within the church, and i would say that there are also "cultural christians" (as this is certainly true of "Irish Catholics" and "italian Catholics" with the "this is just the way we are, this is what it is to be irish/polish/italian/what have you." whom i have also met, but who will absolutely deny the dogmatic teachings of the church forwards and backwards, but will still faithfully go to church daily, weekly, seasonally, or what have you, with the greatest care because of their cultural heritage and connection, well outside of any religious/spiritual notion. God bless them for it too.

 

So, i go with "yes, of course." because, there are so many definitions of jesus, christ, son of god, and celebrating holidays anyhoot. smile.gif

post #25 of 126

I suppose you would be considered a christian in name only. I grew up in a nonpracticing catholic and methodist (I think) home. We went to catholic school, did the church thing when the holidays came round and all that but I never considered myself a christian until I decided to believe in Jesus and I wouldnt even have dreamt of doing so before that day. I understand that many people do consider themselves christians but ask them what they believe about Jesus and they dont know much about him even. I just think, personally as a christian, that there are simply a LOT of things to consider before calling yourself a christian. Like discovering what the word Christian really means. Where it gets its name, Jesus Christ, and learn what other christians believe about him. But saying that, I think its really important that people dont call themselve a christian if they dont believe in Jesus Christ. Thats my personal opinion. Theres nothing I can do about it tho. Im a devoted follower of Jesus Christ. He is my Saviour and my everything and I love Him. This is why I call myself a christian.

post #26 of 126

I think you would be part of a long-standing minority traditions of Christianity. Someone quoted the Nicene creed, but the Nicene creed, developed hundreds of years after Jesus, was developed because not all Christians believed in the divinity of Jesus. And there are modern day Christians who reject the trinity. Like me.

post #27 of 126

I think you can call yourself whatever you want. Culturally christian seems appropriate as a descriptive term. Are you looking for a church/religion/community that shares your beliefs?

I think Judaism, Islam are good examples of religions which share historical roots and some beliefs but do not adopt Jesus as God. Also, UU churches and unprogrammed Quaker meetings often embrace followers who are christian in cultural background but can also be agnostic/pagan/non-religious. Depends on the congregation, but those two both fall under the category of Christian usually without requiring the belief in Jesus as lord.

post #28 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by la mamita View Post

I think you can call yourself whatever you want. Culturally christian seems appropriate as a descriptive term. Are you looking for a church/religion/community that shares your beliefs?

I think Judaism, Islam are good examples of religions which share historical roots and some beliefs but do not adopt Jesus as God. Also, UU churches and unprogrammed Quaker meetings often embrace followers who are christian in cultural background but can also be agnostic/pagan/non-religious. Depends on the congregation, but those two both fall under the category of Christian usually without requiring the belief in Jesus as lord.



This is how I feel as well. culturally, I'm Christian. I think it would be dishonest for me to say that I'm not. Having been brought up in a country that is primarily Christian in a Christian family, celebrating Christian holidays and traditions there's no denying the influence that Christianity has had on my life. That said, I'm not interested in Christianity as my spiritual practice.

 

My family's traditions are deeply rooted in Catholicism and the idea of NOT participating in our family traditions around the nativity at Christmas, not having a baptismal ceremony with my children wearing their great-grandfathers christening gown would be unthinkable. I feel like in the US, sometimes we discount the cultural and familial significance of religious practices.

 

Do I think Jesus is God...well, yeah, sort of; I think he was an avatar like Krishna and the Buddha, and anyway the spiritual path that I follow tells me that we're ALL divine. What I don't believe in is a literal heaven or hell or that Christianity is the "one true path" (but I think it's A true path). Spiritually though, Christianity just doesn't do it for me, this is not to say that I think my spiritual path is superior in any way, just that it's more suited to me; everyone is different after all and while Christian spiritual practices may be deeply powerful and meaningful and uplifting for some, they're just not what I'm drawn to or interested in.

 

That said, as an American women who is Catholic by birth I can't just erase--nor would I want to erase--my heritage or the influence it has had on my life nor would I want to cease participating in family traditions and practices that ARE meaningful to me--not for their religious significance, but for their cultural and familial significance.

 

When someone asks what my religion is I guess my answer would depend on whether they wanted to know about my beliefs and spiritual practices or if they were asking about my background/culture.

 

Often I will say I'm a non-practicing Catholic. Or that I'm Catholic by birth but follow a Vedic path, or a Yogic/Tantric path (depending on which terms I think the person would be most familiar with).

post #29 of 126

Donning my flame-proof suit to offer another perspective.  Historically, not all followers of Christ have professed belief in the Nicene Creed, the doctrine of Jesus as "only son of God". As Tradd pointed out up thread, this doctrine was "hammered out" in fourth and fifth centuries (precisely because there was dissent), so hundreds of years after Jesus' life and generations after the the lives of his early followers.  Keep in mind that the term "Christian" was not likely used by the early followers, most of whom still identified with Judaism.

 

Currently, the vast majority of people who identify themselves as "Christians" are of the creedal variety, meaning that their Christianity is based on belief in (most commonly) the tenants of the Nicene Creed mentioned above.   But there have been other methods of following Jesus.  The OP might be interested in Gnostic Christianity, for example.  "Gnostic," comes from the Greek word gnosis, which means "knowledge" and speaks about an experiential path of knowing God, not through faith, but through "Logos" first-hand knowing.  There has been quite a bit written about the Gnostic Gospels and such over the past couple of decades.  An amazon search would get you started.  Best wishes to all on their paths.

 

Edited to add: well it looks like others jumped in while I typed my reply to suggest some similar ideas smile.gif

post #30 of 126

I heard someone say something one time that seemed to resonate for me (I'm not Christian.  I believe that Jesus led a wonderful example, but I don't believe that he is any more divine than any of the rest of us)  Anyway, what they said was, "the religion of Jesus, not the religion about Jesus."  That made a lot of sense to me because I believe that Jesus taught a lot of important lessons about what kind of life we should lead (just as I believe that many other spiritual leaders have taught important lessons about what kind of life we should lead).

 

I was raised Catholic, but have always felt kind of squirmy talking about/praying to Jesus.  Within the last few years I have started giving myself permission to say to myself, "I'm not Christian."  It has been free-ing in a way.  I will admit that it's hard b/c everyone else in my family and in my day-to-day community is so gung-ho Christian... and many of them believe that non Christians are going to hell.  But I've found a wonderful UU church and am making friends in that community and learning to feel more comfortable with what I don't believe and have found a spiritually safe place to make the journey to find out what I do believe.

post #31 of 126

"I heard someone say something one time that seemed to resonate for me (I'm not Christian.  I believe that Jesus led a wonderful example, but I don't believe that he is any more divine than any of the rest of us)  Anyway, what they said was, "the religion of Jesus, not the religion about Jesus."  That made a lot of sense to me because I believe that Jesus taught a lot of important lessons about what kind of life we should lead (just as I believe that many other spiritual leaders have taught important lessons about what kind of life we should lead)"

 

Sorry, quotes aren't working for me since the reboot...

 

The problem I have with that statement is that it ignores a LOT of what Jesus said. Sure, he said plenty of nice, compelling, ethically-interesting "generic" things, if you like, about social justice and religious puffery and humility and all that jazz. But he ALSO said some pretty darn specific, controversial, theological things. Like, you know, "he who has seen me has seen the Father". :p I believe I read somewhere that while Jesus is famous talking about love, word for word (as recorded in the Gospels) his primary topic was hell. People who think Jesus was a non-divine cool guy don't tend to focus on those statements so much. Jesus ENCOURAGED "the religion of Jesus", in that He claimed to be divine and commanded people to follow Him and questioned the official Jewish religion and so on.

 

So I get believing that the Church distorted Jesus' teachings or that it developed accretions and trappings that distorted His message or whatever. But I don't get ignoring the majority of what HE said about Himself/God/salvation/the universe in general, and "following" the sayings you agree with, or trying to fit Him into whatever mold you want - social activist, non-resistance advocate, whatever - at the expense of the text. It's just... bad scholarship, really. (Of course, you might believe the Gospels themselves aren't accurate, but then you don't have a lot else to go on...)

 

In other words: if what you follow is "love your neighbor as yourself" or "be kind to the poor" or "don't make a big show of being holy to impress other people", well, those are nice things, but it's a bit odd to say you're following Jesus as a person. You're following some of his teachings and rejecting or ignoring the main thrust of His teachings and life. So in that circumstance, I think it would be strange to call yourself a Christian - sort of like calling yourself a Lutheran because you like what Martin Luther said about marriage, but none of his stuff about church reform or the Papacy. :p

post #32 of 126
Smokering:

Quotes aren't working for me either, but if you read the second part of what shanniesue2 says I believe she is referring to the fact that she may admire some of Jesus' teaching but does not identify as Christian. Kind of similar to how many people respect Mother Teresa's work with the poor, see her as an example of a life lived full of charity and love, but don't give a hoot about her specific religious background which brought her to said charity work. I think admiration of many historical figures who have been religious can be separated from picking a specific religion. One can admire Jesus, one can admire the 'universal' parts of his message (many of which are present in other religious traditions as well) without saying Jesus=God. Anyways, I was just confused after reading your response because she declared herself to no longer identify as Christian.
post #33 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post

 Even the whole divinity of Jesus was not decided upon until the 4th century.

 

This is not true.  I'm assuming you're referring to is the first Council of Nicea, which was called together as a response to the heresy of Arianism.  Just because a council was called to officially reject a heresy does not mean the Divinity of Christ was just pulled out of thin air in the 4th century.

post #34 of 126

Smokering,

I guess it would all depend on 1)what value you place on Christian scripture and 2)how you interpret "he who has seen me has seen the father."  Aside from the fact that I believe in a mother god and not a father god, that statement could be interpreted to mean something along then lines of, "we were created by god(des).  'in the image of' and we have that divinity within us.  Our lives can reflect that divinity for others (or not).  And Jesus is a spiritual figure whose life certainly reflected the divinity of the creator for the people around him.  So, those people who's lives were touched by Jesus certainly have seen god.  However, anyone who lives so compassionately also has the ability to be an image of the loving creator to those around them."  I'm sorry, I'm not a theologian, and I realize that you will probably come back and try to show me where all the incongruencies in that statement lie.  And that's okay.  Basically, my belief is in our Mother Earth.  Who births us into being.  Because we are part of that creation, we are part of the Mother, and as such, we all are part of the divine.  Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, you, me, and that guy standing over there.  I believe that we can experience and see the divine through any of these people and also through nature.  But like I said, I'm not Christian... and when I finally came to the conclusion that there is no need for "atonement" that really kind of overturned how I view and interpret Christian scripture.  I do value that the bible has a lot of higly valuable lessons to teach.  Just the same as there are important lessons to learn from other scriptures and other pieces of literature as well.

 

La Mamita,

thanks ;)

post #35 of 126


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by la mamita View Post

Smokering:

Quotes aren't working for me either, but if you read the second part of what shanniesue2 says I believe she is referring to the fact that she may admire some of Jesus' teaching but does not identify as Christian. Kind of similar to how many people respect Mother Teresa's work with the poor, see her as an example of a life lived full of charity and love, but don't give a hoot about her specific religious background which brought her to said charity work. I think admiration of many historical figures who have been religious can be separated from picking a specific religion. One can admire Jesus, one can admire the 'universal' parts of his message (many of which are present in other religious traditions as well) without saying Jesus=God. Anyways, I was just confused after reading your response because she declared herself to no longer identify as Christian.

 

The point is (sorry to butt in Smokering) that Jesus claimed to be God. If Jesus was a great guy who taught important messages about truth and goodness but was not God, how do you reconcile that with Jesus' claims to BE God? He claimed the title "I AM" many times in the book of John (whose point was to establish the divinity of Christ and His place in the Trinity, [written around 95AD]) which to the Jews He was speaking to would be clearly God, the Father. 
 

The OP says Jesus was an awesome guy who taught great stuff (my summarization), to which I would ask, how do you know this about Jesus? What is your basis for your information about Jesus and His teachings? If it is New Testament scriptures, how do you reconcile His claims to be God in those same books? As Smokering pointed out it is not good scholarship to reject the portions of ANY text based on how you feel about it or whether it agrees with the rest of your worldview. 

 

CS Lewis says it more clearly :

 

Quote:
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
post #36 of 126

"Quotes aren't working for me either, but if you read the second part of what shanniesue2 says I believe she is referring to the fact that she may admire some of Jesus' teaching but does not identify as Christian. Kind of similar to how many people respect Mother Teresa's work with the poor, see her as an example of a life lived full of charity and love, but don't give a hoot about her specific religious background which brought her to said charity work. I think admiration of many historical figures who have been religious can be separated from picking a specific religion. One can admire Jesus, one can admire the 'universal' parts of his message (many of which are present in other religious traditions as well) without saying Jesus=God. Anyways, I was just confused after reading your response because she declared herself to no longer identify as Christian."

 

Yeah, I know, but the OP's questioning whether or not she can use that identifier. I was just saying that if she wants to follow shanniesue2's philosophy, that won't be Christianity... or, in my opinion, a very scholarly/honest evaluation of Jesus' life and teachings. In other words: she can believe it if she wants, but if she then said things like "I follow the religion of Jesus, not the religion about Jesus" I'd find that both offensive and inaccurate.

 

"2)how you interpret "he who has seen me has seen the father.""

 

Yes, but then, that verse isn't the only one in which Jesus claims divinity. He doesn't correct the disciple who calls him "My Lord and my God", which is extremely significant - He certainly should have, if He wasn't. In John 13:13 He goes so far as to say (re the title Lord) "that is what I am". He claimed to be the Son of God on numerous occasions - and there is no indication that He meant a generic "we're all children of God" - certainly the Jews didn't believe He meant that, as they considered it blasphemy and making Himself equal with God. He claims the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12), which is something His audience knew was something only God could do. And that's the obvious stuff... there are plenty of other indications, like His statement to Pilate that "my kingdom is not of this world", the "I AM" parallels, and so on. If you want to figure out whether or not you want to follow Jesus - and I realise you don't, but the OP seems to be dealing with this issue - you can't just ignore those verses. (And of course, depending on your view of the other NT scriptures, there are plenty more claims to Jesus' divinity there. It's kind of... the whole point.)

Seriously, can someone tell me how to do quotes?

post #37 of 126

Smokering,

I guess I'm not sure why you would have to feel offended if someone holds a perspective that you don't find particularly accurate.  If you want to argue accuracy from a theological stand point, that's fine.  But I don't see how getting offended over it serves any purpose.

 

My point was not to argue theology (I already said I'm not a theologian), but it was to give a slightly different perspective for the OP.  Let me see if I can put into written words why I think this "religion of Jesus" perspective resonates with me.  I think that what happens in religion (generally speaking) is that people get into theological arguments that, in the long run, don't really help them to be better people or to develop a more meaningful spiritual practice.  The winners of such debates get to declare the losers heretics, and I don't really think this benefits anyone.  So when I say the "religion about Jesus" that's what I'm talking about.  I think when people get into arguments like, "you're not a ___fill in the blank___ because you don't profess to believe xyz" I think that that kind of position is really missing the boat.  I think the bigger picture is, does my spirituality and my practice help me to be a more whole person and does it help other people to be more whole as well.  The point of it all is that I don't think it makes a person "more Christian" to sit around and argue about the accuracy of their spiritual and/or theological understanding of the person of Jesus.  I think that doing so is missing the point of what Jesus was trying to teach.

 

I think that if someone (like the OP) wants to identify themselves as a Christian because they want to follow the example of Jesus' life, then I don't see why that should be a problem to anyone else.  If following Jesus' example helps a person to be more spiritually whole and helps them to be a better person, then what, exactly, is the point of trying to argue with that person that they aren't a Christian b/c they don't believe xyz? (not a rhetorical question) 

post #38 of 126

As an ex-Christian who was once a heretic (Sabellian), my answer is "no".  It is hard for me to say I'm not a Christian because I believe a lot of what Jesus was reported to say.  I guess I just have my doubts that it was only him that said it, that the Bible was historical, and much more, that he was God in a concrete sense.  I don't know if I ever felt Christ, per se, in my heart.

 

However if it's important to you, you can always call yourself a "cultural Christian".

 

I don't think that you could find many Christians who would say, Jesus is not the Son of God.  This is THE defining characteristic of Christianity as separate from other Judaic sects, which makes them not a Jewish cult, because it introduces a different idea of God.  There might be some, but I'm willing to wager that at least, at an absolute minimum, probably 99.999999% of the clergy from all denominations, and 99% of all followers, believe Christ is God and that if you don't think so, you aren't a Christian.

 

post #39 of 126

Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet but not "the son of God" so your view is actually muslim! smile.gif

post #40 of 126

"I guess I'm not sure why you would have to feel offended if someone holds a perspective that you don't find particularly accurate.  If you want to argue accuracy from a theological stand point, that's fine.  But I don't see how getting offended over it serves any purpose.

 

My point was not to argue theology (I already said I'm not a theologian), but it was to give a slightly different perspective for the OP.  Let me see if I can put into written words why I think this "religion of Jesus" perspective resonates with me.  I think that what happens in religion (generally speaking) is that people get into theological arguments that, in the long run, don't really help them to be better people or to develop a more meaningful spiritual practice.  The winners of such debates get to declare the losers heretics, and I don't really think this benefits anyone.  So when I say the "religion about Jesus" that's what I'm talking about.  I think when people get into arguments like, "you're not a ___fill in the blank___ because you don't profess to believe xyz" I think that that kind of position is really missing the boat.  I think the bigger picture is, does my spirituality and my practice help me to be a more whole person and does it help other people to be more whole as well.  The point of it all is that I don't think it makes a person "more Christian" to sit around and argue about the accuracy of their spiritual and/or theological understanding of the person of Jesus.  I think that doing so is missing the point of what Jesus was trying to teach.

 

I think that if someone (like the OP) wants to identify themselves as a Christian because they want to follow the example of Jesus' life, then I don't see why that should be a problem to anyone else.  If following Jesus' example helps a person to be more spiritually whole and helps them to be a better person, then what, exactly, is the point of trying to argue with that person that they aren't a Christian b/c they don't believe xyz? (not a rhetorical question)"

 

So what do you think Jesus was trying to teach? The only way to determine that is through... drum roll... theological debate. There's a difference between spending endless hours nitpicking over some tiny, inconsequential point of doctrine when your neighbor lies bleeding at the door, and hashing out some extremely basic issues such as "Who was Jesus?", "Do I believe what He was trying to teach?", "What was He trying to teach?" and so on. Theology isn't some evil ivory-tower abstraction designed to foster division and hinder good deeds; it's a way to get closer to God. You can't get close to a lover or child without knowing about him - his likes and dislikes, his background, who he is, what he does, his interests and passions and plans; theology is just the same, only it's learning about God rather than a human.

 

Your post presents a theological perspective as much as anyone's; I just don't think it's very well-informed, Scripturally speaking. The point of Christianity is not to make people nicer or better people, to make them "spiritually whole", whatever that means, or to develop a "meaningful spiritual practice" (again, whatever that means - the phrases require theological definition). I do find those points of view offensive - intellectually offensive, if you will - because if you're going to comment on someone else's religion, you ought to attempt to understand what its texts teach, what the self-defined "point" or purpose of the religion is, and so on. You can cherry-pick bits of the more generic Christian philosophies or sayings, the ones that fit in with your pre-existing worldview, but that isn't doing justice (or showing respect) to the religion or the texts. Christianity requires a radical upheaval of one's worldview; it isn't supposed to neatly slot into Day 6 of Becoming a Better Person, along with yoga and volunteering. That's totally missing the point. And if one claims to be a fan of Jesus, it seems only fair to let His words and actions dictate what HE felt the main thrust of his life and teachings was. Calling him a social activist or humanitarian or whatever is, to use my earlier analogy, like calling Martin Luther a marriage reformer. Being a fan of Luther's teachings about marriage doesn't make you a Lutheran, and being a fan of Jesus' teachings about compassion or charity does not mean you are "following the religion of Jesus" - not the way JESUS defined it, anyway! Now, the OP could certainly legitimately say "My spiritual beliefs are.... XYZ... and I follow some of Jesus' ethical principles", and that would be fine. But to call oneself a fan or follower or disciple of a person generally means that you agree with their main message or worldview - if you say you're a fan of Martin Luther King, people will assume you're talking about his views on racial equality. If it turned out you disagreed with those views, don't believe he really said any of that stuff or whatever, and you just like like some comments he made one time about baseball, it would seem very odd and misleading to call yourself a Martin Luther King fan. At best, you'll confuse people, and at worst it will be seen as disingenuous or deceptive.

 

Of course, if you want to make the case that Martin Luther King WAS primarily a baseball fan and should be defined as such, that's cool; but you'd have to go from his speeches and transcripts and letters and so on, ie. what he actually said.

 

As for being offended, well, I'm not sure it usually "serves a purpose", but is that the point? It doesn't really "serve a purpose" to be upset by racial slurs or sexist jokes, but people still are. And people get offended by factual inaccuracies all the time - "mothers who breastfeed past six months are sexually deviant", anyone? I would indeed find it offensive - not to the point of foaming at the mouth or anything, but sort of wryly amused and a bit disgusted - if someone told me that by loving her neighbor and giving to the poor she was following the "religion of Jesus", and I was therefore following the (presumably adulterated and spiritually inferior) "religion about Jesus". At the least, she would have to back that statement up with some damn good scholarship, not just claim she wasn't a theologian and didn't want to defend the statement.

 

"If following Jesus' example helps a person to be more spiritually whole and helps them to be a better person, then what, exactly, is the point of trying to argue with that person that they aren't a Christian b/c they don't believe xyz? (not a rhetorical question)"

 

Sorry, just noticed this. Well, the point is, according to most Christians (including me) if they are not truly saved, they will spend an eternity in hell, and having been a "better person" won't have done them one jot of good - because the entry requirement for heaven, if Jesus isn't standing in for you, is NOT "better" - it's "perfect", and that's impossible for sinful humans to attain by their own power. THAT was Jesus' message - "believe in me for salvation" - not "be spiritually whole and do good things". Rather a striking difference, really. :)

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