Creative Boundaries w/ hostile STBXH

[chicaalegre]

I've posted here a few times before but here is a recap of my scenario: I am Mama to two littles, 3.5 yo DD and 14 mo DS. STBXH and I have been separated since mid-September; I decided to divorce him about three weeks ago. We own a house together that we bought just over a year ago. STBXH has a year lease in a little room in a shared house downtown, that lasts till Sept '11. STBXH pays our mortgage currently and we still have shared bank accounts and credit cards, although he recently cut up his cards we share and opened his own account. STBXH works 2nd shift and I work 1st, so he spends the night at our house 3x/wk to get up with the kids since I leave for work at 6:30am--he is with the kids when I am at work, always in our house. He will not take the kids to his place currently and does not want shared physical custody when we divorce (i.e. no overnights)...although he is willing to "watch" them while I am at work. We have a mediation agreement that we are still working on.

My plan currently is to spend the next couple of months getting the house ready to show, put it on the market in January and hopefully sell it as soon as possible. I will file for divorce after the house sells, or maybe when we put it on the market since there is a 6 month wait at least anyway. Kids and I are moving to a cooperative community of townhouses that I am at the top of the wait list for.

Our separation was mutual but ever since we separated I feel as though my STBXH has turned things around, acting like I have forced our family apart. He has made superficial efforts to reconcile, doing things like saying (after I had told him I wanted to divorce) "So, do you want to get together to uh...talk...about our marriage and everything, to see if we can have one more chance?" At that point I felt it was too little, too late, since I have made numerous suggestions over the past few years of ways to improve things...counseling (which he reluctantly went to but was all but silent in), change of work schedules (which he refused until a couple of weeks ago), etc. Anyway, my reasons for wanting a divorce are varied and multiple and I am not working toward reconciliation at this point. He has been controlling and emotionally abusive and has just gotten worse since our separation.

Between these brief periods of him wanting to "reconcile" (these last maybe a couple of days and never have included him apologizing for anything or taking personal responsibility, only saying he will "give me another chance to change.") are longer periods of him being increasingly mean and hostile, evasive and manipulative and uncooperative. Basically my feelings of wanting (really, NEEDING) to leave have been confirmed through this process.

The other day I took my wedding ring off...I had been thinking about when to do it, not feeling quite ready yet, etc. but I took it off while I was driving and put it in the cupholder in my car. Later that day I was cleaning my car outside and my baby was crawling around the car and threw my ring somewhere in the car...I can't find it but I know it's here somewhere. I mentioned it to STBXH and he completely flipped out. This was somewhat amusing to me because he has never worn his wedding ring, and here I accidentally lose it after we've decided to divorce and he flips out. I tried to explain calmly what happened, to empathize with his being upset, to emphasize that I did not lose it on purpose and was not trying to be hurtful. This is just one example of his bizarre overreacting to things that are not personal...like, he was also really irate that I was cleaning out the car because he said I never did it while we were married. He is very suspicious of me having an affair, although I'm not, never have, and he cheated on me early in our marriage. He said in front of our kids that he now wants no communication with me, doesn't want to see my face, doesn't want me to contact his family--all as a result of this ring accident (his family is all in Mexico and I call his mom and a few sisters regularly...he makes little effort to keep our kids in contact with them and refuses to speak Spanish consistently with them so they can barely communicate as it is), etc. He's really, really mad and being really, really hostile.

I think I've been doing a pretty good job of taking care of myself and my kids. I've been keeping to our usual routines as much as possible, seeing friends and family regularly, going to Alanon regularly (which has REALLY helped), meeting with my Alanon sponsor, going to indiv therapy and got my daughter and I (and her dad, if he's willing) into this attachment based family therapy clinic. All of this seems to further infuriate him--like he would prefer me to be falling apart and depressed, and is really pissed that I'm functioning well, enjoying time with my kids and taking care of things (like cleaning the car, doing maintenance on it, yardwork, etc that I didn't often do when we were together).

I'm feeling the need to protect myself from his hostility, set some more boundaries with him, but I'm not really sure what to do since our lives are still so intertwined. I'm sure it will be better once we move out of our house, since he will not be doing childcare in my new home. I can't make him take the kids to his current living situation since we both still own the house and he refuses to have them there. Mostly I've chosen to just not engage when he speaks meanly or yells, I've just tried to stay detached and respond in a way that I feel good about my kids witnessing, since I have no control over the way he relates to me. My heart aches for my daughter especially, who is seeing her papa speak so angrily to me. He also has a hard time appropriately directing his anger--so he frequently will yell or speak harshly with the kids when he's really mad at me.

Any suggestions for creative boundary-setting would be appreciated. I'm grateful for this forum, for the ability to vent if nothing else, and also to read about other women's experiences.

[doubledutch]

what are the boundaries you would like to have in place?  is this mainly about the way he talks with you?  you can end the conversation, even if he is in your home.  if he is "on duty" with the kids, then you can excuse yourself and go to another part of the house or leave.  if you are getting home from work, so it's your turn with the kids, but he just hasn't left yet, you could take the kids for a walk.  for me it helped to have a "this conversation is over" type of line and just repeat it, with no other response.  it was sometimes exactly that phrase, or "i don't have anything else to say about this," or "we can talk later."  it is infuriating, but ultimately it does end the conversation.  i felt kind of mean about it . . . i guess there are nicer ways to put it, like, "i would be happy to talk to you about this when the kids are sleeping," or "i hear your concerns and want to discuss this, but not now."  you are already trying not to engage, but you also say you are empathizing and explaining.  that's great when someone is just upset with you, but not when they are being hostile.  when they cross the line, it's time to just end the conversation, imo.

what are your other childcare options?

why can't you file for divorce now?

:Hug

you sound very strong and smart.  i think you are handling yourself very well.

[chicaalegre]

Yes, I guess I'm mostly talking about boundaries in terms of the way he is speaking to me. That may not be possible, save for me walking away from him mid-sentence, because I have tried essentially saying "We need to talk about this later," or "I'm done with this conversation" in more ways than one and he continues to say what I feel are inappropriate, hurtful things in front of our children.

In terms of other childcare options, I'm not really sure and I don't think I have many. I have to be at work at 6:45am, and we have little to no wiggle room in our budget right now for paid childcare. When I move we will have more to work with, but while we're paying the mortgage it's not really possible. I have a few friends who might be willing to do some, but I honestly feel bad a) waking my kids up way early to drive them across town and b) asking friends for regular childcare help when I am not able to reciprocate or pay them. That may be an option for one day a week, with a mama who I do weekly childcare for. It's just honestly so much more work to get them up and out of the house so, so early. When we move my work schedule is likely to change since STBXH is changing to the day shift, so I'll have to work evenings or on his days off. I am looking into preschools for my daughter for a couple days a week, too.

Maybe I should talk to a lawyer about when to file for divorce--honestly I'm avoiding it because I have NO extra money and am trying to pay down some debt and get some medical stuff done while I'm still on STBXH's health insurance. My reason for waiting until after the house sells is because my impression is that if we divorce before the house sells then it will need to be divided as a marital asset, and it seems like it would just be less complicated to sell it beforehand, since neither of us wants to or is able to keep it post-divorce.

Ugh. I am trying to do this one day at a time and not project worst-case scenarios on our future interactions, since obviously I a) have no control over him and b) have no idea what the future will bring. Maybe his anger will subside, he will mature, he will gain perspective and willingness to cooperate with me, etc. That said, I am still exhausted by the idea of trying to coparent with someone who is so full of anger and hostility. It's like he doesn't understand that it is possible to not be together but also not be enemies. Like he feels that if we are divorced he needs to have a reason to hate me. I really don't understand it since obviously we will have to work together at least on some level for the rest of our lives, and more closely for at least the next 18 years or so. ::::groan:::: I respect his right to have his feelings, to feel angry at me, to grieve the loss of our marriage in the best way he knows how, but I have a hard time when that results in hostile speech and action toward me and a blatant lack of respect and heavy sarcasm. Then he's trampling on my right to be treated respectfully and I can't tolerate it. Can't tolerate it but...also don't know how to stop it.

[*MamaJen*]

You sound like you're handling this with remarkable grace and strength. My hat is really off to you, and I'm so glad you're filing for divorce.

As far as the boundaries...with really bad verbal and emotional abuse (especially when there's substance abuse in the mix) the only true boundary is physical separation. In other words, when you're dealing with an abusive person, there's nothing you can do to make them not abuse you, except not being there to be abused.

One of the biggest mistakes women make is thinking they can reason with abusers as though they're normal. With normal people, it's possible to act in certain ways or say certain things that make it really unlikely that they'll treat you with hostility or berate you. With normal people, there are certain kinds of cause and effect that make sense. With normal people, reality is real.

Abusers are different. They have no sense of responsibility for their own actions or emotions. They rewrite reality to suit their own version of events, and do everything they can to get you to buy into it. I personally believe that most abusers have some kind of personality disorder like NPD or BPD.

If you bring a super strong sense of personal boundaries into the mix and absolutely refuse to engage when he acts abusive, it might help. Or it might not help. In general, I've found the the absolute biggest step that a woman can make towards recovery from abuse is the act of not caring. You have to completely stop buying into his worldview and you have to stop believing that you are in any way, shape or form responsible for his emotions. You basically have to stop caring about how your actions make him feel. That's never something I would recommend to solve conflict between two normal people. But again, abusers aren't normal. They've invested years in basically brainwashing (sorry, I know it's a strong word, but it's true) their victim into believing that the way the victim acts is hurtful to the abuser. You've been walking on eggshell for a long, long time. By announcing your intention to divorce, you've taken a huge step towards being free of the abuse. That's enormous, and believe me, I know how much strength that took. The next step is to actually stop the abuse -- because in reality, he is still abusing you.

I would talk to a lawyer as soon as you can. It's super common for people to divorce while the house is on the market -- that's not insurmountable.

That's tricky with the shared childcare. If you didn't have shared childcare, my recommendation would be to stop basically all face to face contact and only communicate via email about essential children-related issues. As it is, I would prioritize getting a system in place that doesn't involve you two having so much contact.

It seems like it's pretty common for this type of abusive guy to move onto the next victim pretty quickly. When he starts dating someone else, you should do a happy dance. That means that he'll start transferring that angry, controlling, jealous energy away from you and onto her. You might find he gets quite bearable to deal with once his emotional connection to you diminishes. Remember, abusers are quite frequently perfectly charming guys to everyone but their abused partner.

Also, for anyone trying to free themselves of abuse, I think reading up on codependency can be really helpful.  

Good luck to you. By getting out of the abuse, you are giving your children the best possible gift.

[bananabee]

Great great great advice, MamaJen. I agree with everything you said, at least it fits my entire experience with my STBX and serves as one more reminder that my STBX is not a normal person that can be reasoned with.

Chicalegra, we were also trying to sell our house when I filed, and we have an infant together. In my situation, my lawyer remarked to me that our divorce could drag on as long as it took for the house to sell since I was still in it and he was the sole provider. Luckily for me, as we owe more than it's going to sell for, and since he owned it before we got married and never put my name on the mortgage, he's taking responsibility for it. His end decision appears to be to rent it out, move me to an apartment, and support me for a year until I can get back on my feet financially. I'm also REALLY fortunate he's moving out of state and I won't have to see him in person anymore. He actually wanted ME to rent it from him, and I've learned not to tell him "No", just to tell him "Maybe" and make it sound like I'm trying to do what he wants but verbally let him know it may not work out the way he's desiring. That way, it's not a power struggle and he doesn't feel lied to when all is said and done (so he doesn't feel the need to retaliate). That way, his thinking then gets re-focused on himself since there isn't anything he's trying to manipulate me into doing. It's really just like dealing with an 8 yr old.

Also, filing for divorce, at least where I am, gets things sorted out on paper. We are working on a preliminary agreement (or provisional agreement) that makes sure everyone is financially covered and it also separates our finances so that everything that either of us earn is no longer considered joint. It also includes an order than neither of us can leave the state with the children without the written agreement of the other parent.

The wedding ring story - I so hear you on that. It's just one more example that reasonable expectations don't apply to him, but you're not allowed the least bit of wiggle room if it doesn't suit him. I'm sure he paints you to other people as a real witch who did that just to hurt him.

Good luck with everything. Dealing with a person like that can be so stressful!!

Edited by bananabee - 11/13/10 at 8:26pm