waldorf inspired unschooling? - Page 3

[MammaG]

Mommysherry, I think it can be done and done beautifully. What I love most about homeschooling is the dual freedom and responsibility to really take ownership of the choices we make for our kids. In my case, that makes me free to choose Waldorf, but not Waldorf immersion. I assume you are aware that there is a lot of negativity out there regarding Steiner. It's worth listening to some of that, and in my opinion, it's worth reading Steiner yourself (in your abundant free time?!), just so that you know the root of what you are doing....ditto with Holt.

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is that Steiner was just a man. A remarkably brilliant man who did a lot of really fine work and who's basic points I am in agreement with. He was also a product of his time and it was a pretty kooky time in some respects. Heaven knows what someone 100 years from now will think of Attachment Parenting, for instance. I think he had an unusually perceptive take on spirituality and how that is intertwined with personal development and education. I also think his ideas were growing and changing throughout his life and work, and I don't see a particular reason that that ought to stop with his death. I feel that we are inheritors of Steiners work, rather than disciples. That means that I am free to tweak whenever, wherever and however I want. I am prepared to give Steiner the graceful assumption that he was not right 100% of the time, just as I am prepared to live with, say Mark Twain (as the new Huck Finn is in the news at this moment) and his culturally influenced language. Or Shakespeare's antisemitism. Or Wagner's. Yes, we are not speaking of art, but of teaching, but I think the general idea holds.

Everyone has a line, right? One Mama really dislikes feudalism and it colours her way of seeing knight play. I'm not bothered by that, but I'm not coming from the same point of view. I see you wanting the influences of egalitarianism, Kmamma, and I can see how this might make your brand of unschooling really incompatible with Waldorf. Perhaps I misread the OP's questions, but I was working from the assumption that she was looking for feedback about meshing unschooling and Waldorf, and had certainly shown a real interest in Waldorf. With that assumption, I feel that a response of 'wow, I don't think those things are compatible' is wholly appropriate, but adding in 'and by the way, there is nothing at all about Waldorf that I agree with' is beside the point and sends the discussion into a place of debating Steiner instead of focusing on the question at hand. I apologise if I misunderstood the OP.


I have absolutely no experience of Waldorf schools, and given some of the things I've read, I'm not sure I would choose that route. I have no doubt that some people have had terribly scarring experiences there. But I choose to take the good and leave what I disagree with. Similarly with things like the knight play. I am the mamma. I am the filter. I am the gatekeeper. I want to protect my children's childhood and nurture spiritual and intellectual growth equally and this works for me. I have read lots about child development and for us, at this time, Steiner rings truest. That may change as we grow and learn. Everyone has to sit comfortably in their ideology and the choices they make. I certainly don't feel that I have let somebody else do all the work and thinking for me, but I have no problems acknowledging an influence I find remarkably inspiring.

Of course, if you were attempting to be both an unschooling purist and a Steiner purist, you would have a pretty tough time reconciling the two. In my opinion and experience you can met the two. I can see in the future that, while Waldorf is foremost for us now, maybe unschooling will come to the front later.

Mommysherry, as an aside, I have a Jan 06 baby and a Nov 09 baby, too! Also an Aug 04 little man who will be a first grader in the autumn. Many good wishes to you on your journey. I don't think you need to worry about where you are...the fact that you have found Carrie is a great thing....she is my #1 inspiration, followed closely by SouleMama. And, like you, what is most valuable to me are the insights into what is developmentally appropriate...the advice to stop talking and do more, to work alongside your children, and the wonderful visual of the incarnating child. It's much easier to be a patient Mamma with that in my mind.

ETA ugh, this sounds so defensive. And really disjointed. But I'm sick and don't really have the energy to go fix it, so I hope that the intent comes through. Maybe I ought to erase and just say...it can work! It works for us! Apologies....

[kmamma]

As fascinating as meta-discussions may be, I will try my best to refrain from participating. As I have stated previously, I do understand the lure of waldorf for unschoolers, and my input is in regard of those facets of Waldorf I believe are incompatible with unschooling. I'll keep going with the flow and assume that if my comments are uninteresting, they will be ignored:).

Yes, of course, I do see that my version of unschooling is based perhaps on something that not all unschoolers share in. I had never stopped to ask that before, whether all unschoolers are united in their conviction of all humans as equal to one another, egalitarianism. Maybe Steiner and his fellow philosophers were right, we can only be free in a socialist system (with an emphasis on being governed by a distant authority).

While Holt was my gateway to unschooling, John Taylor Gatto makes for a far more fascinating read in my opinion and through his books, where egalitarian thoughts dominate with the ciriticism of 'education for domination', I have developed the assumption that unschooling is based on the rejection of compulsory government education in favor of a liberating one (not to be confused with a liberal education;)), on the parents' terms.

When I evaluate a system of education or a theory of child development, I can't help but look at the person or institution behind it. Just presenting my take on it all.

I stay away from glorification of knights for the same reason a Waldorf mother will shelter her children from the negative effects of TV. To me feudalism is violence and as with everything, it matters how each of us see the world, for it's the only way we can live a life of our own.

 With that assumption, I feel that a response of 'wow, I don't think those things are compatible' is wholly appropriate, but adding in 'and by the way, there is nothing at all about Waldorf that I agree with' is beside the point and sends the discussion into a place of debating Steiner instead of focusing on the question at hand. I apologise if I misunderstood the OP.

 

 From the start I presented my agreement with Waldorf 'accoutrements' as compatible with unschooling, but did add that those accessories did not, imo, fall under the exclusive category of Waldorf, but simply 'natural living'.

I think if you open the thread to opinions, there's going to be discussions and debates. Just the flow of life, never know where one thing will lead you.

Debating Steiner, in my world, seems wholly appropriate in this context. As would debating Holt, or Gatto, or Sandra Dodd.

Oops, I guess after all, I did venture where I did not intend to:).

I could easily have been one of those mamas who happily combine peripherical waldorf practices with an unschooling philosophy were it not for my displeasure in maintaining routines, or 'rhythms'. Cause there are certainly a lot of overlap between my way of life and that of many waldorfers. It looked really sweet to me from the outside, but reading family centered books about waldorf i was put off on an energetical level. I could not help but look into the essence of anthroposophy, it seemed to color the work so strongly. I couldn't look past it as many other parents can. So I read some material about Steiner and that's when I developed the sentiments I have now. All the while, I have some great waldorfy friends who I admire.

In the end, all that matters is what inspires each family to be truly themselves and live life fully. I love the stories you have all shared here even if I may not share in the Waldorf attraction:).

[Lillian J]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmamma 

I think the outer expressions of current Waldorf 'trends' combine well with unschooling, just as it does with any other aspect of natural living, but on a philosophical level, I feel the two clash perfectly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

This is it for me too. We've used many of the trappings of Waldorf education ... art materials, stories, rhythms, etc., ... but have steered entirely clear of the philosophy. 

Furthermore Steiner's dogma on academics flew completely in the face of who my children turned out to be as learners and people. As kindergarteners my eldest was an advanced self-taught reader, and my next kid was a natural encyclopedia of science facts, my youngest a passionate and advanced mathematician. 

Miranda

I heartily agree. My son was in two years of Waldorf kindergarten (he started young, before he was five, and they like them to do two years in those cases). I observed and researched a lot during those years - so when we began homeschooling, I had some great little books on some of the hands-on methodology. We began with a little of that. It fortunately didn't take me long to realize that he didn't need me orchestrating his learning process in that way - he was a unique individual learner, as we all are, who had his own effective ways of absorbing things, and dragging it out into lessons was actually condescending. 

There's a lot to the whole Steiner world that most people aren't aware of, but it was just the softness and beauty of the classroom activity techniques I had been attracted to - and then it turned out that my son didn't need techniques. We continued using the beautiful, waxy, Lyra pencils for everything, but I got out of his way with my silly notions of lessons I thought would be good for him. We also enjoyed some math explorations that were suggested in one of the little guide books to math, but we didn't go on and on with it. We also used the cursive handwriting workbook some - The Write Approach - it was bone simple cursive lower case with print upper case - which is great, because then children can gradually elaborate on the capital letters to suit their own personalities, just as they eventually do with cursive ones anyway. But what also worked well was simply writing a bit in one color for him and letting him trace over it in another color - was beautiful and easy for him.

What I found, and this is something I checked out with a number of other parents I knew through the Waldorf community in my area, is that it was generally the parents who felt most drawn to the Waldorf atmosphere. The way I look at it, adults often have more of a drive to simplify and soften experiences that children would just as soon explore in a fuller and freer way of their own - children haven't yet been through the same stresses that may affect adults' attitudes. I remember talking with some parents I was friends with at our school who had come to the realization that their children weren't thriving there and they were in the process of moving on, and I mentioned, thinking I was merely stating the obvious, that I'd earlier noticed them looking longingly into the door of their children's beautiful classroom and imagining themselves in there healing their own educational wounds. Their mouths actually dropped open - they said they hadn't realized it was so obvious. I honestly had no idea until that moment that it hadn't been perfectly obvious to everyone. Don't get me wrong - it's a lot better than what's happening in a whole lot of classrooms where early formal studies are being drilled into children, but a lot more natural freedom can be offered in a home setting. The key is to make sure to let the child be at the center of it all rather than any philosophy or methodology being at the center. 

- Lillian

[greenacresmama]

BTW: DH said I was nuts for making him naked (i brought out a blanket) and hurried back in to our home (we live in Hawaii BTW). We later talked and talked.. We actually really came together in such a magical place (I am sure it helped.. pretty much debated in the car until we got to the place and so many times after that night). Our thoughts came in harmony on the beach on the North Shore under a full moon, the moon was low in the sky and we could see the stars. We talked to our kids about the dangerous surf and where they could walk safely. They learned about that and how the tide comes up further sometimes, saw crabs. We cudddled in blankets and ate organic food from the co-op. It was beautiful. 

 

He began his debate saying things, oh, IDK, like, you are taking advantage of the world by picking and choosing materials and also not exposing them to all the great courses that they should practice to get into college at 20 and be in the ranks of men. I said a few things like nature is a powerful design and learning it is food for the soul, taught many scientist great things, etc. But we got to the beach and the helicopters were practicing night landings for a while.. I said that all of that stuff is important.. but.. I don't think I want to expect my children to solve all the world's problems by first learning and using systems. I wonder first if the lessons from using, loving and caring for nature (and also creating art and music in nature or about it, having a wholesome home, etc) ..... IS solving the world's problems. Creating easiness.. I know ECing was very easy for me and that is the kind of thing I want to improve upon. Also just being more human/alive/animal.. Also (I have not read Steiner) but help me out... Is it making a healthy child just by giving them more time and the importance of nature? Like the Seventh Day Adventist in CA, Peoples in Costa Rica, etc all the cultures with the most people age 100? Is that apart of Waldorf? The things is, here at the school they do study cultures, Local cultures.. uh gotta go.. 

 

And Love too. I wonder.. I feel like I have a huge place in my home, school, life for love.. Not being strictly one way because love means understanding, harmony, unity, and compassion..in the family and in the community. I would love to know what all you moms posted about philosophy think. kind of vague, but.. that is the thing about being here right now? Isn't it? 

 

Thank you so much mamaG, kmama, Lillian, so many others! Thank you everyone! 

 

Hey, and I mean this whole nature in a sense of us changing our homes, lives, and drawn relaxing interests etc. as a way of unschooling. I totally get what Lillan said about her son and the parents. I also have this balance in me that feels drawn to listen and be quiet.. not say no to everything.. but I guess like faith, nature (to my LDS friend) is something worth standing up for and she really leads her children in her faith.. I think sometimes the "systems" that we school our kids in are so much like teaching them a faith. We are letting them be free-er but when do your values come in to play as an unschooler? Faith, morals, values? Waldorf inspired really came from my values and not a system I think they need, all though it is..1# is they need love, #2 is community, #3 connecting with what keeps them alive, #4 is play. Just my take. 

 

(Hate to bring this up but.. I got Cancer when I was pregnant and it really got me straight about some things with society and culture, because the only thing that seems to fill me up is love and the basics, beauty.... sometimes I just think all this training is making America nuts.. everyday is a gift and every moment can be so full filing. I do want to encourage my children's creative happiness, but I am really looking forward to thinking "off the grid" for the most part of the rest of my life. )