Concerning teacher behaviors - Page 3

[kawa kamuri]

Originally Posted by catinthehat This is only first grade you know, not a highschool chem lab I am disrupting.  

One of my sons is a 1st grader and I take his schooling very seriously. To me it's not "only first grade". I mean, it is HIS chem lab whether anyone else thinks it's important or not. 

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

Originally Posted by karne 

I need to say that I do not think that a parent's need/right to have total access to their child during the school day, during instructional time, supercedes the rights of the other children in the classroom.  I send my child to school to be in school with the teacher, not in class with student's parents.  I think it is amazing that folks don't get how hard teachers work to maintain the focus and rhythym of their classes, esp. in the early grades.  I can't imagine walking in unannounced, anywhere, and expecting someone to stop instruction, acknowledge me and provide seating.  The teacher's job is to teach, not take care of the needs of the parents during the day.

I find all of this a little underhanded, and lacking in respect.  If you need to see the child that badly, take them out of school, and let the classroom be for the children's needs, not the parent's.

What if you want to see how your child is doing IN the actual classroom??

Then you should find a way to observe that doesn't affect what you are observing. Walking into the classroom changes things from "how your child is doing in the actual classroom" (your stated observation goal) to "how your child does when you are in the classroom." It changes things from "how the teacher interacts with the children" to "how the teacher interacts with the children when an adult is watching."

If your observation is noticed, what you will be observing is the actions of the class when you, a strange adult, are present. You will not know what the class is like on all the days when you aren't there

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

Originally Posted by TCMoulton 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

I don't think most people think teachers are underpaid.  They work less hours than most people in the private sector, even with the work they take home.  I am not aware of any profession that gets 10 weeks off a year to start. 

Well technically teachers do not get paifd for the summer - the only way they receive paychecks over the summer is by having their 10-month salary divided into 12 months of paychecks (and the vast majority of teachers work way more than 8-10 hours a day which is pretty dang comparable to the provate sector). Would you knock a fireman the same way - if there are no calls it is completely plausible that they might sit & do absolutely  nothing for an entire 12-hour shift.

 

This I have not found to be true, in my experience.  Maybe 8 - 10 hours.  Not way more than 8 - 10 hours.  If they coach a  sport or sponsor a group, they get paid for that in addition to their salary.
 

 If you were to include all of the hours spent over the weekend/days off/holidays/vacations then yes, I most certainly believe that the majority of teachers average more than 8-10 hours a day, especially if you include all of the prep work done over the summer (which are hours that are not paid time). I have worked in an elementary school and a high school, in fact I was the student council sponsor my last year (which when you figured out how many hours I put in made my stipend worth maybe $2 an hour), and I can guarrantee that the huge majority of teachers do WAY more work than you as the parent or friend see (plus the money they spend out of their pockets to stock a classroom).

Also, tenure is not readily given to teachers, it is something that is most certainly earned (especially in this day and age where there are more teachers than jobs & those new teachers come to a district with a much lower starting salary than a tenured teacher in the same position).

Regardless, I don not think that it is fair to the teacher to expect him/her to have to deal with random (possibly lengthy if a chair was needed for the OP to take a seat) "visits" in his/her classroom and not find it disruptive and possibly frustrating.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

I don't think most people think teachers are underpaid.  They work less hours than most people in the private sector, even with the work they take home.  I am not aware of any profession that gets 10 weeks off a year to start.

 

I don't know whether toor at that statement. My friends in the private sector get to leave their job when they go home. Sure firefighters get time off too, but they don't have a 4 year degree and aren't required to get an MA to keep their job. For their amount of education, teachers are underpaid. And for the record, they don't get paid for the summer. It's NOT paid time off. It's unpaid time off. My dad had to take summer jobs every summer in order to keep food on the table. He burned his ears to the cartilage installing tin roofs on barns one summer. Overpaid?

Have you taught? If so, I'll accept that statement. If not, please go teach for a year and then come back and tell me that teachers work fewer hours than people in the private sector.

Sorry, off my soapbox.

OP: If you want to know how the class functions, volunteer so you can be there with something to do while the class is running. If you've got such a bad feeling that she just isn't going to work, ask for a transfer.

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

I don't think most people think teachers are underpaid.  They work less hours than most people in the private sector, even with the work they take home.  I am not aware of any profession that gets 10 weeks off a year to start.

 

I don't know whether toor at that statement. My friends in the private sector get to leave their job when they go home. Sure firefighters get time off too, but they don't have a 4 year degree and aren't required to get an MA to keep their job. For their amount of education, teachers are underpaid. And for the record, they don't get paid for the summer. It's NOT paid time off. It's unpaid time off. My dad had to take summer jobs every summer in order to keep food on the table. He burned his ears to the cartilage installing tin roofs on barns one summer. Overpaid?

Have you taught? If so, I'll accept that statement. If not, please go teach for a year and then come back and tell me that teachers work fewer hours than people in the private sector.

Sorry, off my soapbox.

OP: If you want to know how the class functions, volunteer so you can be there with something to do while the class is running. If you've got such a bad feeling that she just isn't going to work, ask for a transfer.

:yeah!  What I don't get is why people revere doctors and argue that they deserve to make $125K+ a year because they "worked so hard to get where they are" but think teachers are overpaid at 40K??  I have just as much education as a doctor (my professor husband has more).  Its such duplicious crap.  I think its due to the fact that teaching was a traditionally female profession and the salary scale was created accordingly.

Yes, when I was teaching I worked 12-14 hour days plus weekends.  Even doing that I never got enough done. (ETA:  Plus I only got three weeks off in the summer, so I actually got paid less than teachers at all other schools in the district since my district salary was for 11 months instead of 10).

To a PP:  I think some new teachers deserve close scrutany and sometimes, yes, termination.  Some folks are not cut out for teaching, and if they get tenured everyone suffers.  I have been at a school where this happened (a poor-fit teacher got tenure) because nobody wanted to be the bad guy.  She is still there, and she makes everyone who works with her miserable (students included).

Forgive my spelling..spellcheck does not work for me with the new system and I can't check words online while I nurse.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

I don't think most people think teachers are underpaid.  They work less hours than most people in the private sector, even with the work they take home.  I am not aware of any profession that gets 10 weeks off a year to start.

 

I don't know whether toor at that statement. My friends in the private sector get to leave their job when they go home. Sure firefighters get time off too, but they don't have a 4 year degree and aren't required to get an MA to keep their job. For their amount of education, teachers are underpaid. And for the record, they don't get paid for the summer. It's NOT paid time off. It's unpaid time off. My dad had to take summer jobs every summer in order to keep food on the table. He burned his ears to the cartilage installing tin roofs on barns one summer. Overpaid?

Have you taught? If so, I'll accept that statement. If not, please go teach for a year and then come back and tell me that teachers work fewer hours than people in the private sector.

Sorry, off my soapbox.

OP: If you want to know how the class functions, volunteer so you can be there with something to do while the class is running. If you've got such a bad feeling that she just isn't going to work, ask for a transfer.

I haven't taught, but I have many family members who are or were teachers, and many close friends as well.  I am still very close with my own 6th grade teacher, as a matter of fact.  Of course there are good teachers out there going the extra mile, but the fact is, the profession is set up with lots of time off, and "bring your work home" depends on the person.  Lots of private sector people bring their work home, too.  and many, many teachers do NOT.  I know how much money many of the teachers in my area make - they are well compensated.  And our kids aren't getting any smarter.  I am a fan of good teachers.  I don't worship teaching as a profession.  And I don't think anyone other than college professors should EVER get tenure.  And I will always feel like parents should have unlimited access to their child and their child's classroom.  Period.  A good teacher would not be affected by a parent dropping in.
 

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

What if you want to see how your child is doing IN the actual classroom??

Then you should find a way to observe that doesn't affect what you are observing. Walking into the classroom changes things from "how your child is doing in the actual classroom" (your stated observation goal) to "how your child does when you are in the classroom." It changes things from "how the teacher interacts with the children" to "how the teacher interacts with the children when an adult is watching."

If your observation is noticed, what you will be observing is the actions of the class when you, a strange adult, are present. You will not know what the class is like on all the days when you aren't there

 This, exactly.  You can't "observe" when they know that you're there; when they know you're there, everyone's actions change, whether for the better or for the worse.  I volunteer in my son's class a couple times a month and the second I step into the room the dynamic changes.  There's no way I could sit in the back and "observe" without it having an impact on the whole vibe in the classroom.  If I wanted to observe, I'd sit outside and watch through the window or something unobtrusive.  If I want to say hi and get a hug, I'll go to the class door, get it, and send them back on their merry way.   

OP,  I think that you clearly need to have a discussion about the classroom dynamics with the teacher and a neutral third party present.  I think you're both probably on high alert and not looking at the situation objectively.  I absolutely think that there needs to be discussion of the classroom policies on telling vs tattling, as if what you're saying is true I think it's a lousy way to conduct a class; however, at the same time I think it's unreasonable for you to think that entering the classroom unannounced and sittign on the floor next to your kid is not a major disruption to the vibe and flow of the class.  I think you both have to give and meet somewhere in the middle on all these issues.

As to whether I have the right to be wherever my kid is, I guess technically I do.  But, how does that saying go?  "Just because you can doesn't mean you should.", I think that's what it is.  I can eat lunch with him, I can go to the class for special parties and projects, join them on field trips, but I can't see how me being there while he's trying to learn stuff is going to be positive for anyone involved; he'd be distracted, wanting to talk/hang with me, and not paying attention to the teacher.

[oaktreemama]

 A good teacher would not be affected by a parent dropping in.
 

It isn't the teacher-it is the students who are affected.

  And our kids aren't getting any smarter.

The single most important indicator of success in school are involved parents. To lay the blame for our failing schools on the idea of lazy teachers who get fat on tenure is very simplistic.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

 A good teacher would not be affected by a parent dropping in.
 

It isn't the teacher-it is the students who are affected.

  And our kids aren't getting any smarter.

The single most important indicator of success in school are involved parents. To lay the blame for our failing schools on the idea of lazy teachers who get fat on tenure is very simplistic.

Well, there have been plenty of studies showing kids can succeed (at places like certain charter school) with better teachers, even withOUT involved parents.  Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.

[erinsmom1996]

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

Originally Posted by mum4vr 

I am a teacher, and I am a parent.

Wherever my child is, I can be.

BRAVO!!!  :clap

Why are people so willing to give up access to their children??  We are talking about 6 year olds!
 

I think that once you enroll your child in public school you are agreeing to give up some control of your child during the school day in order to maintain the necessary structure for ALL children to learn. If schools allowed parents to come in and out all day long as they wished, how would children have distraction free time to learn which is why they are in school? Also, there are safety issues unless ALL the parents have gone through the proper screenings and are proven not to be a danger to other children.

I have to agree with other posters that it seems like you are assuming the worst about this teacher without giving her a real chance and since she most likely knows that, she probably does have a little bit of an attitude with you. She SHOULD be professional in her interactions with you of course but she is human. I think that meeting with her and the principal or even the guidance counselor is a good idea as well. That way, both of you can discuss your concerns and you can figure out if you need to take further action to get your daughter transferred to another class.

[oaktreemama]

 It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.

If you look at long term successful programs (for instance the Harlem Children's Zone) you will see a concerted effort to ensure parental involvement starting from birth because it is understood how critical parental involvement is. And that is why these programs are so successful-they understand that education doesn't just involve the child and the teacher-it involves the whole family. There are always going to be kids who achieve no matter what, but to pretend that teacher success happens in a vacuum and is unrelated to the child's home life is not true.

Now back to the topic-the best pace for the OP to start is with the teacher. See what she has to say-I think a lot of drama could have been avoided had both parties been more willing to not assume the worst from the initial interactions.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

 A good teacher would not be affected by a parent dropping in.
 

It isn't the teacher-it is the students who are affected.

  And our kids aren't getting any smarter.

The single most important indicator of success in school are involved parents. To lay the blame for our failing schools on the idea of lazy teachers who get fat on tenure is very simplistic.

Well, there have been plenty of studies showing kids can succeed (at places like certain charter school) with better teachers, even withOUT involved parents.  Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.

But you aren't going to get teachers willing to go the extra mile when you don't respect what they can do, tell them they're overpaid because of "all" the time off they get. If you compare the amount of respect and the type of college graduate willing to go into teaching in the US with other systems where the public education system is doing better at the elementary/high school level, you'll find the teachers get a heck of a lot more respect, and there's a concerted effort to recruit the best and the brightest into teaching. In the US? "Oh, it's too bad s/he decided to be a teacher. He/she could have done so much more with their life."

Note that most charter schools are opt-in. You have to choose to send your child there. Those parents are saying, by their choices, that they value education, even if they can't be involved in other ways.

Finally, my kids are in school 6:40 minutes every day. They're at home for the rest of the time. Even if they sleep 10 hours, that gives them more time with us than with the teachers. Add in weekends and holidays, there's no contest. I agree that committed teachers make a huge difference. But without parents willing to follow up, there's only so much they can do.There are teachers who shouldn't be teaching. But there are more teachers, I would contend, who are highly undervalued.

And now I'm going to bow out of this discussion because I'm beginning to rant and I'm clearly not adding anything to the original poster's post.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by erinsmom1996 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

Originally Posted by mum4vr 

I am a teacher, and I am a parent.

Wherever my child is, I can be.

BRAVO!!!  :clap

Why are people so willing to give up access to their children??  We are talking about 6 year olds!
 

I think that once you enroll your child in public school you are agreeing to give up some control of your child during the school day in order to maintain the necessary structure for ALL children to learn. If schools allowed parents to come in and out all day long as they wished, how would children have distraction free time to learn which is why they are in school? Also, there are safety issues unless ALL the parents have gone through the proper screenings and are proven not to be a danger to other children.

I have to agree with other posters that it seems like you are assuming the worst about this teacher without giving her a real chance and since she most likely knows that, she probably does have a little bit of an attitude with you. She SHOULD be professional in her interactions with you of course but she is human. I think that meeting with her and the principal or even the guidance counselor is a good idea as well. That way, both of you can discuss your concerns and you can figure out if you need to take further action to get your daughter transferred to another class.

your bolded reminds me of the argument in favor of full body scanners or full body pat downs at airports.  Sorry, I don't believe we have to give up so many personal freedoms to participate in things like school and air travel.  Especially when giving those freedoms up doesn't really have the intended effect.  How may parents would really stop by?  Not many.   Why not worry about it becoming a disruption if it actually becomes  a disruption?  Kids are flexible.  More flexible than we give them credit for.  I am sure if the teacher said at the beginning of the year (or if it were just the norm to expect drop in visitors), "We might have visitors surprise us and drop by from time to time.  Say hello, and then please try and get back to the task at hand", the students would do just fine.  We don't know that for certain, though, because the norm has been to hand the kids over to school without looking back for a long time :( 

[VisionaryMom]

 Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.

Why do people make this statement? It's factually incorrect. Children in our state (and the others where we've lived) are in school 7 hours a day. At the beginning, they are with 1 teacher for 5-6 of those hours (lunch, specials, etc. taking up the other time). My children are with me an hour in the mornings and 5 hours after school. Plus they're with me the 185 days a year that school is not in session. Even if I worked a traditional 8/9-5, they'd have 3-4 hours a day with me on school days plus all of that other time (weekends, holidays, etc.). When you factor in that most kids have a different teacher every year, a child would be with a specific teacher for 1,080 hours max (assuming 6 hours a day for 180 days). They're not with their teachers altogether more than their parents/family, and they're certainly not with a specific teacher that much.
 

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

 Come on - the kids are with the teachers more than they are their parents.  It's pretty obvious that teachers would have the greater impact.

Why do people make this statement? It's factually incorrect. Children in our state (and the others where we've lived) are in school 7 hours a day. At the beginning, they are with 1 teacher for 5-6 of those hours (lunch, specials, etc. taking up the other time). My children are with me an hour in the mornings and 5 hours after school. Plus they're with me the 185 days a year that school is not in session. Even if I worked a traditional 8/9-5, they'd have 3-4 hours a day with me on school days plus all of that other time (weekends, holidays, etc.). When you factor in that most kids have a different teacher every year, a child would be with a specific teacher for 1,080 hours max (assuming 6 hours a day for 180 days). They're not with their teachers altogether more than their parents/family, and they're certainly not with a specific teacher that much.
 

LEt me rephrase then, lots of kids are with their teachers/in school (being influenced by school)  during more of the child's best/most focused hours, than at home.  I don't know about you , but most of the people I know are done by 5pm.    And lots of students may only be in school for 6 or 7 hours, but that doesn't mean they are with their parents for the remainder - they are in sports or religious ed or at a friend's house, etc..  I know of very few people, in real life, who make a concentrated effort to spend more time with their child than the child spends in school.   That may not be the case among mothering.com families, but it is the reality where I live.  And school is 7.25 hours for 1st grade and up here.
 

[kathymuggle]

vbactavist...there are ideals and there is reality.

Truthfully, I would love a school where parents could drop in, had no homework,  was 3-4 hours long, and was lively, project/community based.  Love it.

To get that I would need to move or create a school - neither of which is going to happen.

Public schools are meant to serve the needs of students in their area.  People have wildly different ideas of what they want.  I do think, for the most part, schools are doing their best trying to meet diverse needs.

You do not have to agree with everything a school does, nor do you have to accept everything they do, but you should be accepting overall of the paradigm...otherwise you are going to spend a lot of time bashing your head against the wall.

[Mulvah]

I thought the OP e-mailed the teacher.  Is that the case and did you get a response?  I agree with those suggesting you look into moving your daughter into another classroom.

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl 

:yeah!  What I don't get is why people revere doctors and argue that they deserve to make $125K+ a year because they "worked so hard to get where they are" but think teachers are overpaid at 40K??  I have just as much education as a doctor (my professor husband has more).  Its such duplicious crap.  I think its due to the fact that teaching was a traditionally female profession and the salary scale was created accordingly....

I must be out of touch.  You have 12+ years of education to be a teacher (not a professor)?  Was that necessary or due to the length of time it took you to complete it, or...?  My understanding was an undergrad degree and licensing was required with some situations (states, employer, job) desiring a Master's. 

That said, I would knock the entertainment industry before I knocked the medical community on earning potential.  That's just me, though! 

[Mbella]

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

As a former teacher I find it very insulting that parents would consider themselves the teacher's boss.  It is attitudes like that that made me leave teaching.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by Mbella 

Originally Posted by vbactivist 

The teachers work for us - the public.  I think it is completely reasonable to have one's boss drop in to check on you.

As a former teacher I find it very insulting that parents would consider themselves the teacher's boss.  It is attitudes like that that made me leave teaching.

Why is that insulting?  Isn't it public tax dollars that are paying a public school teacher's salary?  
 

[oaktreemama]

 Isn't it public tax dollars that are paying a public school teacher's salary?  
 

Tax dollars also pay for our military and our police and our court system and our highways. I am guessing you would not presume to think you are the boss of police officers and soldiers and judges?