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Flying with kids - new TSA screening stuff - Page 2

post #21 of 46

Again on mixed feelings - in a world where radicals are going towards more creative lengths to do harm a body scan may be a necessary evil. I do not  agree with a pat down, but you do have a choice [and the pat down is nothing new really..] The scanner may be a little invasive, but if can prevent ONE event from happening I think it's worth it. And radiation wise, I'm fairly sure you experience more from a Chest X-ray or just going up in flight that unless you're flying daily I wouldn't worry about that.  I mean honestly if someone wants to keep a black and white, grainy photo of my flabby body what-ever. Are they realistically going to store millions of grainy naked photos daily?

 

 

And again, I've been patted down going into events and while it's not pleasant, I wouldn't equate it to being sexual assaulted or anything. It was more like "I bet you want to do this as much as I want you to so lets get it over with, nothing to hide, thanks and bye.."

post #22 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommariffic View Post


And again, I've been patted down going into events and while it's not pleasant, I wouldn't equate it to being sexual assaulted or anything. It was more like "I bet you want to do this as much as I want you to so lets get it over with, nothing to hide, thanks and bye.."


Really? I've definitely had dozens of pat downs going into events, but not pat downs that involve cupping the crotch or breasts. I've never heard of that before.

post #23 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommariffic View Post

Again on mixed feelings - in a world where radicals are going towards more creative lengths to do harm a body scan may be a necessary evil.



I meant to respond to this, too...don't know how to split my quotes, anymore.

 

If we just keep upping the ante on what we're willing to put up with in the name of "protection", then the things that fall under the heading of "necessary evils" are just going to get worse. The shoe bomber and the underwear guy got caught...without body scans and cupping people's crotches. Now, the creative ones are going to start loading up their body cavities with explosives - if they're willing to blow themselves up, they're not going to care how dangerous that is, are they? So...what's next?

post #24 of 46
Thread Starter 

I've read a couple of articles that say that if a person is wearing baggy pants, TSA is now required to conduct the "pat-down" by putting their hands inside the person's pants.  Are they really going to do this to 13-year-old kids???

post #25 of 46

 

Quote:
My problem with the scanner isn't just the radiation, it's the fact that it's essentially a nude picture that someone is seeing of me or my kid.  That bothers me 

 

Me too. And I keep hearing on the news that the pictures can be saved and stored in the machines. I've seen what the pictures look like and you can see everything pretty clearly.

post #26 of 46


PoppyMama, that second link is great. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppyMama View Post

The fact that the searches are coercive and violate my rights and I didn't hire someone to do them.  Once you get back there you are not allowed to change your mind and leave without having the search without being subject to lawsuits and fines.  I am lucky that I can choose not to fly without giving up access to close family or giving up my job but other people are not so lucky.  Not to mention that it seems likely that these constitution violating searches are being, at least partially, used to intimidate people into not fighting the body scans.  

 

http://pncminnesota.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/rape-survivor-devasted-by-tsa-enhanced-pat-down/

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/10/for-the-first-time-the-tsa-meets-resistance/65390/

 

 

 

post #27 of 46

I'm so glad this thread has already been started. I have spent far too many nights up, stressed out about our upcoming family flight through the US. We hardly ever fly (first time in 4 years) and if we could cancel our trip we would, anything to avoid this invasive 'security theatre' (borrowd term) that the TSA has instigated.

 

my first conclusion was that, x-rays or not, we'd do the body image scanner because in no way am I going to tell my kids to let uniformed strangers touch them, period. While some relatives are saying NO, no, avoid the scanners, they're dangerous, do the pat-down, I still can't make peace with choosing to make my kids succumb to a pat-down.

 

I've yet to talk to my kids about it at all, because I'm not sure how much to say. They're old enough to understand and care about their options (10, 7 and 4), and I know if I show any fears or uncertainty, they'll pick up on it. Personally, I am vehemently opposed to this crap on every level, and I hate that I must lie about my own convictions, to keep their thoughts simple and care-free, but of course I will.

 

My fears are two-fold: If I KNOW I can choose the machine (body imager, not backscatter) and that guarantees me no pat-downs, then I will. We'll wear simple clothes with no pockets, nothing that could set off the scanner's viewing agent to request a further pat-down. But what if they request one anyway? And I heard that they randomly pick passengers for pat-downs, so I can't control for that. What if they pick my kids?

 

 

We're flying out of Sea-Tac, in Seattle, if anyone's gone through there recently.  I would LOVE to just do the regular metal detector. LOVE it.

 

I guess I feel like, if I now we can avoid the pat-downs, I can prepare my kids for the scanners appropriately. But if there's a chance i'll be forced to consent to a pat down, I need to talk to them. Someone mentioned gender-seperated line-ups, is this true? My ideal is to get patted down as a family, and all by the same female agent, with DH and I going first, so the ids can see it and us fine with it, first.

 

I just want to avoid pat-downs altogether. I hate the thought, and know that my kids will have big issues with them, so I need to prepare them. If I have a 'big talk', that'd stress them out, so something simple and no-big-deal is best.

post #28 of 46

After the initial hoopla the PTB decided not to do the "enhanced" patdown on children under 12.  Doesn't help me since I have a 13 dd and really I'm more disturbed about these patdowns on kids as they hit puberty.  It does help you on this trip though.  I would not have everyone go through a patdown starting with you because if they see the patdown you guys are getting they may freak.  I honestly don't know which I would choose.  

post #29 of 46

We went through Sea-Tac last week. I asked at the airline desk (not security), they'd heard nothing about 12 year olds being exempt. But all we did was the usual metal detectors (which, oddly enough, did not pick up the metal pins in my FIL's hip). Backscatter scanners where in place but not in use. Phew!

post #30 of 46

This is an article on the radiation.  Basically you get more radiation in the flight than you do from the scanner.  More from an x-ray than from the scanner.  There are people who are concerned, but the consensus seems to be that if the machines are in proper working order they are safe.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/health/medical/cancer/2010-11-18-scanner-radiation_N.htm 

 

 

This is what the images look like...

 

http://boingboing.net/2008/10/24/what-the-tsas-new-bo.html 

 

While I'm not thrilled about that, it definitely isn't x-rated and fairly bland.  Yes they can see your body shape, but really very little detail. 

 

This is a video of a 3 yr. old getting a pat down.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6pJ7nP1yA&NR=1 

 

While it's not something great, it also didn't seem like something traumatic and the agents seemed to be trying to keep him smiling. 

 

 

 

OK, now my opinion.  If flying were necessary for me, I would probably go through the full body scanner and have the kids do the same thing.  But the airport near us doesn't have a scanner so we only had to go through the metal detectors.  I honestly don't mind the procedures, but no, they aren't comfortable.  I think the policy needs to be changed because it does seem like they are slowly adding more and more invasive measures, but I wouldn't let that keep me from flying. 

post #31 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petie1104 View Post

OK, now my opinion.  If flying were necessary for me, I would probably go through the full body scanner and have the kids do the same thing. 



You don't always have the option to skip the patdown, though. If they see anything that seems suspcious on the scanners, you still have to do the patdown.

post #32 of 46

 

DS (age 6.5): I want to fly to Disneyworld! The drive is far!

DH: Well, did you know that when you go to the airport nowadays, they have a machine that will take pictures of your body under your clothes, and then a stranger will look at your whole naked body including your penis?

DS: ... no way. You are teasing me, Dad. 

DH: No, it's true. And if they don''t like what they see on that naked picture, they will touch you all over your body, including your penis. 

DS: I am pretty sure that they will like what they see in the penis picture. 

(Mom collapses in laughter.)

DH: Well, if they DON'T, they are going to touch your penis. There is a man whose job it is to touch people all over at the airport. 

DS: ... you mean like at the dentist's office?

Both Parents: WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AT THE DENTIST'S OFFICE?!?

DH: ...wait, do you mean the doctor's office?

DS: Yeah.

DH: Well, this man would not be touching you all over to make sure that you are healthy. He would be touch you to make sure that you are not carrying a knife or a bomb.

DS: PEOPLE KEEP BOMBS IN THEIR PENIS? 

 

Long story short, we drove to Florida as planned biggrinbounce.gif

post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Petie1104 View Post

OK, now my opinion.  If flying were necessary for me, I would probably go through the full body scanner and have the kids do the same thing. 



You don't always have the option to skip the patdown, though. If they see anything that seems suspcious on the scanners, you still have to do the patdown.



And, if flying somewhere is important enough to me to make sure I have the money set aside to afford airline tickets, then my point is, I would put up with it.  Of course, to us, flying is an expense that has to be saved for times when we really need to do it.  We just can't afford it otherwise.

post #34 of 46

Petit - I respect your opinion on this, but did want to point out that the USA Today article you posted relies on the TSAs own studies of their own equipment. Independent scientists have questioned the validity of that testing, and have said that it is likely the radiation levels are higher than the TSA is reporting.

post #35 of 46
Recently I flew with DH and both children to attend my grandfather's funeral. None of the airports we went through had what DH and I jokingly call the "cancer machines" (porno body scanners) but if they had, we would have refused to go through them. And I was fully prepared to be turned away at the gate, because I'd sooner miss seeing family and honoring a dead loved one than allow some goon to fondle my children or me, over the clothes or not. We are not criminals and I won't let my children be conditioned to be treated that way. Nor do we want them to ever believe that it's okay to be molested by a stranger just because they wear a government badge and "everybody's doing it". irked.gif

DH and I drive everywhere...and I mean everywhere. We don't fly except in case of emergency (i.e. funerals) and it's a shame, because we love to travel. But we won't support an industry that allows its customers to be treated like prisoners. It just doesn't mesh with our values as a family.
post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

 


DS: I am pretty sure that they will like what they see in the penis picture. 

(Mom collapses in laughter.)

 

(snip)

 

DS: PEOPLE KEEP BOMBS IN THEIR PENIS? 

 

Long story short, we drove to Florida as planned biggrinbounce.gif


 

Ok, your DS sounds HILARIOUS!!!!!  Especially the first one.  I almost fell out of my chair.

post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCM View Post

We went through Sea-Tac last week. I asked at the airline desk (not security), they'd heard nothing about 12 year olds being exempt. But all we did was the usual metal detectors (which, oddly enough, did not pick up the metal pins in my FIL's hip). Backscatter scanners where in place but not in use. Phew!


 

Pins that are designed to be implanted are generally titanium (I believe) and are not picked up by metal detectors.  I do wonder if they would show up in a scan?  I'm also wondering what is going to happen to those who have things like pace makers and who cannot go through metal detectors b/c of medical exemption - will they have an enhanced pat down or are the scanners safe for them?

post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post

Petit - I respect your opinion on this, but did want to point out that the USA Today article you posted relies on the TSAs own studies of their own equipment. Independent scientists have questioned the validity of that testing, and have said that it is likely the radiation levels are higher than the TSA is reporting.



The USA Today article had references for the FDA in it.  So it wasn't just TSA's studies I don't think.  With that said, the main complaint I have read is that they don't know that the equipment is working properly at all times.  With that said, I did post the article so that everyone could draw their own conclusion.  I was just saying that for me, it isn't enough to keep me from flying if I need to.

post #39 of 46


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by WCM View Post

We went through Sea-Tac last week. I asked at the airline desk (not security), they'd heard nothing about 12 year olds being exempt. But all we did was the usual metal detectors (which, oddly enough, did not pick up the metal pins in my FIL's hip). Backscatter scanners where in place but not in use. Phew!


 

Pins that are designed to be implanted are generally titanium (I believe) and are not picked up by metal detectors.  I do wonder if they would show up in a scan?  I'm also wondering what is going to happen to those who have things like pace makers and who cannot go through metal detectors b/c of medical exemption - will they have an enhanced pat down or are the scanners safe for them?


 

I broke both wrists in Oct 2001, initially I was in casts but ended up having plates and screw holding my wrists together. Flying home for Christmas that year, I set off every detector not just the ones at security but also in the duty free shop. I ended up having the plates and screw surgically removed the following spring.

post #40 of 46

This topic infuriates me like almost nothing else. 

I think there are a lot of issues here that are rarely brought up. 

The first is the whole "professional" argument. While most of the TSA agents may be very nice, well intentioned people, they are hardly professionals. There are no education requirements and the salary ranges somewhere from 25-40k. There is nothing wrong with not having a higher education or making a low salary. I have a GED and barely make a livable wage but I'm not pretending that I'm somehow qualified to stop terrorism or to perform invasive inappropriate acts on strangers. These agents are not required to take a class on ethics or communications and are given nothing more than on the job training to use very complicated equipment.

Secondly, while I think it is wise to have basic security measures in place (scanning of bags and such), are we maybe just too afraid for our own good? I can sit here and come up with a dozen things I do every day that are more dangerous than getting on a plane, I would dare to say that are even more dangerous than getting on a plane that has had no excessive security screening at all. More people are killed in car accidents every single month than have been killed by terrorism in the history of our nation. That's not me being insensitive, it's a statistic, a fact. 

Other modes of transit like bridges and subways in large metropolitan areas, especially New York, are under the "threat" of terrorism every day as well. Remember that there was a subway bombing in London? And yet millions of people get on the subway and drive over bridges every day. And ..... do it without ANY invasive or personal security measures. NONE, not one. As someone who lived in NY for twenty four years and still goes there frequently, I can tell you that I've never once heard anyone ask to have airline security measures extended to subway use.

So my point is that I very personally resent someone telling me that my child should be forced to pose for pornographic pictures and be subjected to inappropriate touching to make them feel better about sitting on a plane, when odds are they are a lot more likely to be harmed when they get off.

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