DP is done, and I can't do it alone

[quantumleap]

That's pretty much it. Ironically, I've always been the one who needs sleep. He does perfectly well on a lot less sleep than I do, but he's throwing in the towel on this one. I'm supposed to come up with a solution.

DD will be two in December. I'm 35 weeks pregnant. She's still nursing, though not a lot through the day. She has never slept through the night. We are trying to transition her in to her own room. She naps for 1 - 1.5 hours in the early afternoon, is asleep by about 7h30 or 8h, and is up by 7am (usually it's 6, and I manage to keep her half groggy by nursing her until I can't take it anymore and we get up!).

Last night, she was up from 12 - 4h30, after waking and being rocked back to sleep at 9 and at 10h30. She came in to nurse, didn't nurse herself to sleep. I gave her a banana and a drink at her request, and then she climbed on to dh's chest and almost fell asleep. She then got up again, and walked back in to her room. I rocked her for close to an hour while she almost fell asleep again. She fully woke up for no apparent reason, I tried lying down with her and nursing again which didn't work. So, we got up, I changed her diaper, and we went back to our bed, where she climbed and thrashed and flailed about until she fell asleep at 4h30. Then she woke up at 5h30, nursed for about 20 minutes, slept for another 20, and then nursed again until a few minutes before 7. A variation on this theme happens pretty much every night. We're going loopy.

DP wants to lock her in her room and let her scream. I can't do that. I also can't stand to nurse her all night. I also have trouble rocking her because my belly is the size of Canada. I also have trouble with the no sleeping thing. I am not a good mama when I don't get a few hours in a night. She does NOT go to sleep by herself.

We did have a good period for a month or two, where we would put her to bed, she would wake once around 11 or 12, be rocked back to sleep in a few minutes, and then come in to our room to nurse and fall right back asleep sometimes between 4 and 6, and then she would sleep with us until 7 or so. It was bliss. Nothing has changed in the routine or anything, and she's actually got all her teeth! (well, not that second set of molars - could this be teething?!).

I'm totally at a loss. I can't think about this too much because I seriously have panic attacks thinking about having a newborn and dd at night. DP has finally, in the past couple of months, started to PARENT dd, and I get a little frantic thinking of things going back to the way they were - me being the only person parenting, solo, all the time. I just don't know what to do!!!!!

HELP!?

[Bebe's Mom]

Sorry mama, sounds like a nightmare. Have you tried night weaning at all? There are many good resources out there such as Dr. Jay Gordon, Elizabeth Pantley, and etc. I am not suggesting CIO, but you definitely need to put your foot down. How verbal is DD? Can you talk to her about your need to sleep?? 

http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

This article really helped me a lot. If you can get her onto a schedule using a method such as this, you will be much happier and so will she. I started a combo of Dr. Gordon and Pantley's methods last month and I have seen an enormous change in my DD's sleep habits. Before we started, she was waking up 5-6 times a night, now she is down to 2-3. It takes some hard work, and you will have some tears, but it is worth it. 

Good luck.

[LorenaAZ]

Yes.....I would try night weaning.  Today!  I thought my daughter would have a horrible time with it, but it has been surprisingly easier than I imagined.  She can fall asleep without the boob now and sleeps solidly through the night (as do I!!).  I just kept telling her the boobies were sleeping "shhhhhh" with my finger against my lips and asked her to go back to sleep.  I kept telling her that when the sun came up, when the alarm went off, when the birds were singing, and when she woke up, the boobies would be awake also.  It only took us 2 or 3 weeks to get her to sleep 100% without complaints.  You still have time before your new little one comes!  I'm a single mama, so my little one and I did this by ourselves.  I couldn't stand to live sleep-deprived all the time (she was nursing constantly through the night!).  We are still nursing strong throughout the day.

Good luck mama!!!  hugs and good thoughts going your way!

[quantumleap]

Thanks for the replies, mamas. I WISH nightweaning was the solution. Unfortunately, she can and does get through the night without nursing. The big sessions happen at my behest once we hit about 5 am, because it's the only way to keep her in bed and I am NOT prepared to get up at that hour! That said, we are working at being more consistent with the no nursing at night thing. I tend to be the one to offer it to her though, in the vain hope that it will settle her and help her get to sleep. No such luck recently though.

She was up last night, again, from 12h30 - 4. She's just UP. Not so much playing, because she does say she wants to sleep, but she fights being rocked and wants to lie on her bed, where she thrashes and fights and has fits if you try to leave her to it. She throws her bunny on the floor and then screams to have you pick it up. Last night I tried changing her diaper, giving her a snack and a drink, drugging her with both calm's forte and teething tabs, rocking her, lying down with her, and eventually I was crying (which made her cry) and then she passed out while I rocked her. She slept in her bed for almost two hours, and then came in to us. We nursed a bit from 6h30-7h and then she slept until 8, which is record setting.

I'm not knocking the nightweaning idea. Do you think if it's more consistent it will work better? She doesn't typically ask to nurse in the night. She is quite verbal for an almost two year old, but I don't know that the messages are really getting through. (although, at nap time today she gave me a litany of "Nanen (her name for herself) seep! Papa seep! Mama seep! Happy!", but then she proceeded to spend a further ten minutes crying that she was "all done seeping!") Is there anything else I can try?!? I'm at a total loss.

Thanks.

[GretchenC]

You must be beat, I'm so sorry.

I think your right that you need to feel like you have this under control before the new babe shows up. I, too, need sleep to be a good mama.

What would happen if you put your daughter in her bed for the night and put a gate up at the door? That way you can hear her if she gets up and you can go in and put her back in her own bed. Make sure to have a comfy chair in her room so that you can sit by her bed if she needs it to fall asleep. If she gets up just place her back in bed and tuck her in. Stay close so she doesn't feel alone but try not to rock her, nurse her or talk. Keep the room dark, interaction low. It will take a few nights but since she sounds like a smart little girl, I bet she will soon get the point that night time is for sleeping in her own bed. It doesn't have to be harsh, just consistant so she can count on it every night.

Hope you find something that works for your family, good luck!

[sillysmile]

So sorry to hear that you're going through this. We're in a similar position, with a DD turning 2 in December and a little one on the way (though I'm only 14 wks). Last night our DD was up from about 2-6 pretty much nonstop, with DH and I rocking her for most of that time in 1-2 hr shifts. That was a particularly rough night for us, but on a typical night she will be up at least a half dozen times requiring parenting to get back to sleep (usually rocking for anywhere from 15-45 minutes). She's been nightweaned for about 6 months now, and has no obvious signs of teething (though we often wonder about the 2nd yr molars).

DH is getting super anxious about a second baby joining us in this situation. He wants to get rid of the rocking chair cold turkey, though I don't have any idea how she will get to sleep without it since she is so dependent on motion to fall asleep. He also wants to transition her to her own bed, as right now she sleeps on a twin sidecarred to our bed but ends up crawling over to our bed frequently throughout the night (often plopping down directly on top of my head!) We're both ready to lose it, and DH really wants to take her to a sleep specialist. We've never let her cry for more than literally a few seconds, and I suspect that they're going to recommend some version of CIO which just won't work for us. Strangely, we also had a good month or two about 4-5 months ago where she was only up 2-3 times a night (and only *once* a few times!), but things have gradually deteriorated since then. I honestly wonder how much of the nightwaking at this age is just related to temperament, and whether it's just a matter of dealing with it by comforting them each time, or getting the point across to the child that they're on their own when they do wake and that it's futile to ask for help. I honestly hope that those aren't the only two options, and that there are some concrete, gentle, strategies for reducing the nightwaking other than nightweaning and time.

Sorry I guess I'm venting more than adding anything constructive to the conversation, but I wanted to let you know that you're not alone.. I'm just as desperate for help as you are and will be watching for replies to this thread like a hawk :) Thank you for your post, and I hope that the other wise mamas out there will have some good suggestions! Hope tonight is a good night for you -

[MamaChef]

Hi, Mama!  I can so relate.  I wasnt pregnant, but I was DONE at 2 yrs old.  I needed sleep. I was to the point that I just wasnt worth a darn as a mama and I wasnt enjoying my life or my family.

We kept the family bed, but nightweaned.  We picked a 3 day weekend so DH could take over all night time comfort.  We also introduced this comfort measure.

http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Twilight-Constellation-Night-Turtle/dp/B000BNQC58/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1291332650&sr=8-5

We kept her in bed with us, but when she woke up, Id pat her back, turn the turtle on.. but would not nurse her.  She would get mad and scream and cry and thrash.. then eventually go to DH and pass out.  The first night she was up for 2 hours and then did some brief crying a couple more times.  Next night, same deal except she was only up for about a half an hour and she woke up a couple more times...  Third night, a couple whimpers, but she slept most of the night.. 4th night, she slept through the night.  For us, we kept reinforcing that she could nurse after the sun came up.  In your case, I know you mostly only nurse in the early morning, but maybe if you just keep the line during the night you can use the same reinforcement.  Dont cave even if she stays up for 4 hours.  I'd honestly say no rocking either.  Nothing that she cant do herself.. get her a fuzzy blanket, a flash light, a set of fuzzy animal earphones attached to a cd player of lullabyes. 

Ill also throw out melatonin and valerian.  These arent everynight things or a solution.  They are a break.  But we did use them both to get our bearing several times during the course of figuring out a plan that we felt good with.  We would use 2 drops of valerian in glycerite occasionally and I know many people who have used melatonin.  We only used it during travel when we had a big time zone difference.

Good luck, Mama.. and remember.  IT IS NOT CRY IT OUT IF YOU ARE THERE TO OFFER COMFORT.  It's teaching your child how to self soothe, and that we dont always get exactly what we want in life, but that is okay.. because, you find sometimes.. you get what you need ;)

[Maluhia]

Could it be the two year molars coming in?

[JennaW]

I don't have much in the way of practical advice but I seriously think it's not cool that your DP has just decided they are throwing in the towel and now it's your problem to deal with...by yourself...when you're 35 weeks pregnant.  I just think that is totally unrealistic, if anything this is the time for him to step up and completely take over night time parenting with your DD.  And there has to be a good compromise between being ups hours at night/rocking/offering snacks/ect and locking her in her room all night (which I totally agree with you is not a solution, I know of a friend of a friend who is in counseling because of this happening to her when she was little, her parents got sick of co-sleeping when she was 3 and just started locking her in her room at night, caused major trauma and issues.)

[porcelina]

Just posting to say we had a similar situation, though less extreme. I definitely think it's worth getting control of before baby comes. First, consistency is definitely important. If nursing is not helping her go back to sleep, then definitely stick with the nightweaning, and be steadfast. You will not want to/be able to pop a boob in her mouth for an hour when you have a baby who needs to nurse/have a diaper change at 5.30 am. Also, it sounds like you are giving way too much support/stimulation at night. I have no idea what your situation is, but offering all kinds of food and drink and rocking etc. sounds like a lot of effort that is just keeping her up with more demands. What about having a little cup of milk/drink in a cooler by her bed that you can hand her if she wants it, and a little snack of crackers that are there to munch on if she needs it? Then, that's it. No other food options, no other trips to the kitchen. If the rocking is not helping, I would phase that out too.

Does she sleep better in your room? We tried transitioning my DS1 to his own room, and he started waking every 2 hours. We gave up and let him stay in our bed. I also struggled to get him to stop nursing at 5-5.30 am because that session was impossible to get rid of (we successfully nightweaned the rest of the night sessions at 25 months, with relatively little problem). I wasn't sure how things would work with baby in the mix. In the end, we started with baby in the same room, and they woke each other up, and DS1 asked to nurse a lot. Then, I moved with baby to another room, and DS1 would sometimes come in at night and scream for me, or else would wake up in the bed and scream for me. Then, I moved back in with DS1 and now baby is all alone :(. But, this is working best for us. Now DS1 just wakes up at 5.30 (still asks to nurse even though I finally cut out that session when baby was about 2 weeks old -- he's now 10 weeks) most mornings. Most of the time, DH just gets up with him. If he wakes earlier and/or is really tired, sometimes he'll go back to sleep.

Anyway, bottom line is, you are right to freak out about how it's going to work with baby in the mix! If she sleeps better in your room, maybe just throw in the towel with her own bed and let that happen. Probably nightweaning now is a good idea, with no going back.

Good luck!

[SeekingJoy]

Originally Posted by Maluhia 

Could it be the two year molars coming in?

I would wonder about this, too. DD was MISERABLE during the month they took to come in, but her sleep drastically improved afterwards.

[KayTeeJay]

Oh gosh mama, I am so glad you posted this. I am also in a similar position, except for the DH thing (thank goodness). My son will be 2 in January and I am 36 weeks pregnant. I really thought he was weaning a few months ago. We hadn't nursed during the day for awhile, only for him to get to sleep at night. There were several stretches where he didn't ask to nurse to sleep, so I didn't offer; instead we talked about all his friends and family sleeping, and all his favorite Thomas trains sleeping, etc... until he finally dropped off. Then we all got sick with the flu and he started asking to nurse, so of course I let him, and now it is back with a vengeance. I'm sure part of it is because my milk is starting to come back in (he told me the other day there was "chocolate milk in'dere!") For the last few weeks, he's taken forever to get to sleep nursing, wakes several times in the night to pop on and off a few times, then from about 4:00a-4:30a on he pops from one to the other, over and over and back and forth. I know I don't have THAT much milk, but if I try to unlatch him and tell him the "ninnies are sleeping," he freaks out. He's also had a few other bedtime meltdowns in the last week or so that consisted of him getting upset at one thing or another at bedtime and screaming (truly, flat-out-red-faced-shaking-mad-inconsolable-screaming-crying) for almost an hour and me (and DH if he is home) trying everything we can think of to calm/comfort him before he finally accepts the boob and passes out. That is SO not like him, so I'm hoping it's a phase that will not last. I am pretty sure he was teething around the time we were all sick, so maybe that was/is part of it.

With the new baby coming in just a few weeks, I am scared poopless of trying to manage both of them at night, especially if my DH is gone (he occasionally works at night.) DS is pretty darn rational and verbal for an almost two year old during the day, but in that half-asleep stage if he doesn't get a "ninnie" right away he freaks out. Do I just let him freak out and be there to comfort him?  Wait it out and see if he reverts back to weaning himself? (which I honestly can't see happening with my milk coming back in) We really would like to transition him to his own room sometime between 2 and 3, but maybe now isn't the best time to do it with all the other change coming his way. I just don't know...

Sorry to hijack, OP-- just know you are not alone. Speaking of that, I read something here on MDC when I was pregnant with DS that helped me through some of the long nights with him--something to the effect of keeping in mind that when you are awake with your DD in the middle of the night, you are part of a "sisterhood" of sorts, women (and men) all over the world awake and nursing/comforting/rocking their babes in the dark. It will pass, it has to. ((((Hugs to you OP!))))

[Chicky2]

Well, I personally think that there's a huge chance this is molars.  All my kids acted like what you are describing at that age!  Have you tried propping her up more in bed?  You can put a couple of towels or a blanket under the head of her mattress.  Their little gums positively throb at night when they lie down.  My kids loved a nice warm sock filled w/barley at that age (and still do!) to cuddle with.  Maybe some nice lavender EO sprinkled on to help calm.

I am also going to be the voice of dissent about night-weaning.  I found it to be much easier for me to just snuggle w/my toddler during those last weeks instead of going back and forth.  Can your dh sleep in her bed and you sleep w/her in yours?  Even if you aren't getting all the zzzs you need, your body is resting more this way.  I found that it was way better to still be night nursing when my babe came (they were 25 mos apart).  I just put one on each side of me and rolled back and forth, lol.  It was what they needed, and I feel that tandem nursing like that really helped my children to bond, and cut down on ALOT of competition/jealousy issues.

Good luck Mama!  I agree, btw, that your dh is being rather lame here.  This is when he should be stepping up, sucking it up, and dealing with it.  You are way too close to having the new babe for him to be acting like that. 

[D_McG]

I agree with this.  We'd have good luck here with weaning at that age and pretty much from birth having a 'nighttime is for sleeping' rule.  Sleeping or nursing and then once the latter was cut out then it only left sleeping.  We don't get up, we don't eat we don't rock or read or anything.  We sleep or quietly snuggle.  All kids are welcome in our bed as long as they are silent and trying to sleep.  Otherwise they have to go back to their own bed.

When I had my second child I had weaned my first fully.  We had my first sleeping in his own bed at the start of the night but he could come in when he woke up (as long as he was quiet).  After the baby was born his only option at night was to come quietly snuggle with us.  If there was drama he got DH, outside of the bedroom.

Your rules should reflect your own values but just having them set definitively was a great help to us.  DS is utterly irrational at night (so is DH) so having anything at night up for negotiation would have been a disaster.  Nursing at night would have been awful for me with a newborn.  But some people don't seem to mind it.  My point is... figure out YOUR limits and build your rules around that.  Your dd will fall in where he needs to, IME.

 

Originally Posted by porcelina 

Just posting to say we had a similar situation, though less extreme. I definitely think it's worth getting control of before baby comes. First, consistency is definitely important. If nursing is not helping her go back to sleep, then definitely stick with the nightweaning, and be steadfast. You will not want to/be able to pop a boob in her mouth for an hour when you have a baby who needs to nurse/have a diaper change at 5.30 am. Also, it sounds like you are giving way too much support/stimulation at night. I have no idea what your situation is, but offering all kinds of food and drink and rocking etc. sounds like a lot of effort that is just keeping her up with more demands. What about having a little cup of milk/drink in a cooler by her bed that you can hand her if she wants it, and a little snack of crackers that are there to munch on if she needs it? Then, that's it. No other food options, no other trips to the kitchen. If the rocking is not helping, I would phase that out too.

[sosurreal09]

so this may sound strange but i noticed whenever my DD has big gaps of being awake at night its time to adjust her sleep time. My DD is 14 m/o and is LOW sleep needs. she has been doing 11hr nights since she was 6 m/o and is down to one nap since 8 m/o. i have not night weaned her yet but she doesnt "wake up" she will roll over and fuss for milk but thats all she never just gets up unless she napped too long or too late in the day then she could do what you're DD is doing and be up from 2am-4am.

have you tried cutting out her nap?

i would suggest a later bedtime even though that sux for you lol. try 8 instead of 7 and see where it gets you. for her to have that much energy at night does suggest shes had enough sleep KWIM?

[quantumleap]

Thanks for all the replies, mamas. It turns out that dd came down with a cold, and then a week later, she spiked a fever. She's never really had a fever like that before. She was running 103ish for several days, and then started to complain that her ear hurt. I tried a bunch of comfort measures in the hope that it was just viral, but after a few days, it became clear that it was getting worse, not better. So, off we went and she's on her first cycle of abx. I think the antibiotics themselves are making her insane (holy, hyper!), but the illness does explain some of the nasty sleeping. The night nursing has increased during this time, but I wasn't going to cut it now, when she's basically not eating at all and the breastfeeding is a big comfort thing for her. I'll give it another go in a few days though.

It did occur to me that you might be right, sosurreal. DD has never been a big sleeper either. I tried cutting out the nap right before she got sick, and while she did half-decently during the day, nighttime wasn't any better. I'll give it a go again when she's through the abx. I really, really hope it doesn't solve nighttime, because *I* need that naptime!!! Ah! However, good nights are worth it. I just wish there was a way to do both! Hopefully there is!

She has been sleeping better in our bed than in hers overnight. She will thrash around and be a bother several times a night, but does eventually pass out if she's in our bed. If she's in her bed, even if one of us lies down with her, she just gets up and out of bed. No sleeping there, apparently. We're not going to push it. She does well there for naps and used to do well there until we'd had a few hours in bed alone, so hopefully we'll be able to get back to that point. I really like bedsharing, but I'm nervous about doing it with a toddler and a newborn. ie: I'm not convinced it's safe! I guess we'll figure it out.

I'm open to any other suggestions out there.

The new babe is due in just over 2 weeks, and I've had a couple of bouts of "prodromal" labour, which have actually been productive on the dialation front. I'm very, very hopeful that things will get going soon here. I know it won't be a cakewalk with two on the outside, but my body is so, so done!

[Chicky2]

Yup, ear pain or any sickness will make 'em wake up and want to nurse more.  Glad you got that part figured out!

[sosurreal09]

you may want to try the later bedtime instead of the nap cut if its that important to you. its going to be rough with two i can imagine. i also am not too sure how safe it is to sleep with both...i know you have to keep the infant on one side (between you and the wall) all night so you cant just roll over and switch boobs lol. wehn we have another i might just side-cart the crib (we stupidly bought thinking we'd need it! lol) until the baby is a bit older...idk only time will tell.

good luck and i hear onion oil does wonders for ear infections.

[Chicky2]

I rolled over and switched boobs w/mine just fine.  I can nurse both boobs lying on one side, though.  That depends on how big the bbs are!  ;o)

[quantumleap]

Well, still no babe! Night time is going a bit better though. It's tearing at my heart, but it is what it is. My mom is here, waiting for the babe, and she's taken on the night time stuff. We're so, so thankful, and at the same time, it's so, so difficult. We still put dd to bed, but then my mom takes over for wakings after that. She rocks her for a minute or two, and then they lie down together. DD isn't alone, but she is away from her mama and papa and she cries for us. However, night wakings have decreased, and I feel like, well, a HUMAN! It's incredible to get up in the morning and feel awake. My mom can occasionally go in there and say in a firm voice, "Maren, get in your bed, it's sleeping time!". DD actually *does* this, my mom covers her up, and leaves. Insane. We don't get anything close to the same results.

No idea what will happen when my mom leaves!