Expectations at Christian School

[loveandkindness]

I have a question for other moms who have children enrolled at a Christian school.  First off, we are not Christians    But DD was in a Christian school for preschool and kindergarten and I loved the atmosphere and how loving everyone was.  I also think it is good she is learning Bible stories, since they are such a part of the American culture.

We moved before 1st grade, and we found a good Christian school here and enrolled DD.  Loved first grade.  Absolutely fantastic -- the teacher, the atmosphere, the behavior of classmates.

Now. . . 2nd grade is really throwing me for a loop.  There are only 3 other kids from her first grade in this class, and they are all still sweet.  But many of the other kids in her classroom have behavior that I find upsetting.  Name calling, no respect for the teacher, yelling at other children, calling a girl a "loser", etc.   The teacher does not seem to be able to control the behavior.  (By the way, this is not hearsay from my daughter; I volunteer in the classroom 6 hours a week.)

The main reason we are paying for a Christian education is so that she will be in an environment that embodies the values we have -- loving everyone, respecting everyone, showing compassion, etc.  I am not finding that to be the case this year.  Do you think your school teaches these values and expects children to behave in a loving, respectful way?  Or is it just that all kids start acting out in 2nd grade?  One of the other 2nd grade classrooms also seems to be having behavior issues among the children.

I really feel some heartache about what is going on at her school this year, and she has been in tears a few times because her best friend was being picked on.  At this rate, I think I would rather save the money next year and send her to public.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Since last year was different, this sounds more like a teacher issue than a school issue.  Given that you have observed this first-hand, I think I would talk to the principal about the atmosphere in this particular classroom.  If the school has a written statement of values and/or expectations, you can point out how concerned you are that this teacher isn't promoting those values.  Or even the difference in their advertising brochure vs. the reality of the classroom.

My DD is in 2nd grade in a Christian-based private school.  While there are some issues this year about kids being "mean" to each other, the teacher is working really hard to correct the behavior without being overly harsh or controlling.  And it would never be tolerated within the classroom itself -- mostly this are playground issues that are being addressed.  So maybe there is something about 2nd graders experimenting with different social norms, but that doesn't mean it should be tolerated and not addressed.

[thriftyqueen]

While it may be normal for kids to start acting out a bit in 2nd grade, it is not okay.  I noticed that a little in my DS's class last year, but the teacher took care of it quite well.   This year (3rd grade), I have seen and heard of a couple of incidences where there has been name calling, teasing, etc. in his class.  His teacher wants to know about any and all of these issues as she wants to deal with issues.

I think it very well may be the teacher either not seeing what is going on or ignoring what is going on.  I would first talking directly to the teacher about it.  Since you are in the room a lot, I would think that you should say it from your observance.  If nothing happens from that, go to the principal.  There are so many issues with bullying in schools and they need to get the issue under control before it becomes an issue of bullying.  Unfortunately, there are issues in Christian schools too, but I think it is wise to talk with the school before making the decision to change schools next year.

[loveandkindness]

Thank you for your replies.  The teacher and I have talked a little in person, and through email, about the issues.  She is frustrated, but doesn't seem to think it is unusual behavior, and I guess she should know since she has been teaching for 18 years!   I am hesitant to talk to the principal -- don't want the teacher to feel I am going behind her back.  I value my time with the class, and don't want to jeapordize that.

I guess if I felt this was "normal" 2nd grade behavior and something that can't be controlled even in a private, faith-based school, I could accept it more easily.  But it seems like something is not right when a school based on Christian values can't help the children live those values.  Perhaps I am just naive about what can be done/taught/instilled at a private school!

[loveandkindness]

Just realized that since you both said teachers at your school dealt with these issues, you may have some answers.  Evan&Anna's Mom -- you said the teacher is correcting the behavior, but without being controlling or harsh -- do you have any specific advice?  And ThriftyQueen -- you said your DS's teacher ended the behavior last year -- do you know how?  Perhaps if I had concrete suggestions I could get the teacher to step it up and nip this before it gets worse.  Thanks!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by loveandkindness  But many of the other kids in her classroom have behavior that I find upsetting.  Name calling, no respect for the teacher, yelling at other children, calling a girl a "loser", etc.   The teacher does not seem to be able to control the behavior.  (By the way, this is not hearsay from my daughter; I volunteer in the classroom 6 hours a week.)

disclaimer, my kids go to a private secular school.

We sometimes have behavior problems at the school, but they are taken VERY seriously. At our school, the administrator would involved if the kids weren't listening to the teacher. Then the parents would be called in. And eventually, the child would be asked to leave the school.

So while I don't find it odd that there are some issue, I find it odd that at a private school nothing is being done.  Right now, it's all talk no action.

And if things are serious enough you are considering pulling your child from the school, I think it is completely and totally time to let the principal know what is going on. At our school, she would already know.

[thriftyqueen]

Originally Posted by loveandkindness 

Just realized that since you both said teachers at your school dealt with these issues, you may have some answers.  Evan&Anna's Mom -- you said the teacher is correcting the behavior, but without being controlling or harsh -- do you have any specific advice?  And ThriftyQueen -- you said your DS's teacher ended the behavior last year -- do you know how?  Perhaps if I had concrete suggestions I could get the teacher to step it up and nip this before it gets worse.  Thanks!

Here are a few things off the top of my head.  They are pretty old school in their discipline, which is fine by me.  In Kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade, they have "sticks" and were given a certain number each day (3 I believe) to start the day.  The sticks can be taken away for inappropriate behavior, being disrespectful, being mean to another student, etc.  Each stick is worth 5 minutes at recess so if one gets taken away, 5 minutes of recess time is taken away.  If all 3 are taken away you lose your entire recess time.

This year they lose minutes of Friday free time for poor behavior or bad decisions.  There is one kid in my DS's class who some times loses the entire free time, but as the year has gone on, his behavior has gotten much better.   

My son's teacher last year was quite strict when it came to being respectful and kind to each other.  The kids learned a lot about respect and treating each other with love and kindness.  Maybe you could see if the teacher would be willing to let you do a little project on loving one another and using kind words.  Of course, this is only going to work if the teacher is going to enforce these expectations.  My DS went to a public school for part of the school year last year (for speech therapy) and the class he was in for that time was totally disrespectful.  The teacher was just a go with the flow sort of person and let just about anything go.  The kids were awful and so mean to my DS that we ended up spending the money on private speech therapy and sending him back to private school. 

I guess ultimately, it may be difficult to go and talk to the principal, but if you feel you have talked to the teacher and it has helped in no way, I would be talking to the principal for sure.  These children need to be learning the core values of life and Christianity and if they are calling each other losers, being disrespectful to the teacher, etc., it needs to be dealt with.  I had to talk to the principal when my DS was in 1st grade because of some issues.  It was difficult, but it ended up being for the best.  The year was much better for my son and the teacher was not upset in the least bit.  You can go to the principal and ask to keep the information confidential because you help directly in the class.  Voice your concerns for the children, the teacher, etc. and tell the principal that you want to be able to help in anyway that you can.  Ask for suggestions as well.  Show that you are genuinely concerned about the children and the teacher and it will all work out just fine.

School settings are difficult especially when you are dealing with many different families who do things different ways.  School should be a place where a child feels safe and accepted.  This should especially be true in a Christian school.  There is never an age where it is appropriate for a child to be disrespectful, say mean things, etc.,  but some times they need to be taught what is appropriate or they will try to push the limits.  This happens more and more as children age.  This is where a teacher (and hopefully the parents) step in and show the children how to treat others.  I hope you are able to work things out with the school.  It is so frustrating when you want to help make things right, but you are in a tough position to do so.

Oh also, one time last year my DS got in trouble for pushing a student and he had to write sentences about why he should not have done that.  He also had to apologize to the student.  He has never done it since!!  Some of those old school methods really do work!!!

[Peony]

DD1 goes to a christian school, and we are so not christian so I know where you are coming from! So sometimes there are children in a private school because they did not do so well in a public school, now some of this is perfectly innocent, like learning disabilities, other times perhaps there were discipline issues. DD1 is in 2nd grade as well and that is what we are running into this year. Now her teacher is amazing but she can't be everywhere at once. while I agree that this age of children are more into testing their limits, I do not agree that is is behavior that should be tolerated. 

DD1 and I discuss issues that happened, what she thought about the behavior, was that the correct thing to do, what she should do next time, like is this something she should involve a teacher in. We also brainstorm ideas of things she can say herself to the other students.

Another thought is if the school has meetings with the parents and staff, you could bring up discipline then. Our school has parent circle meetings where it is the director, maybe some teachers, and then parents, they bring concerns or ideas. Usually if one parent mentions something, others will jump on board as well. 

[elmh23]

My kid goes to a Catholic school and they are very big on "Christ like behavior."  It's the number one rule of the school for all children, all parents and all teachers.  That said, there have been problems with students being disrespective to the teacher and other kids.  I'm not really sure how they deal with it on a day to day basis (in dd's class, they work one-on-one with the child, but it's Kindergarten and the student has a language barrier they are trying to work through) but I do know that several children have been asked not to return over the years. Dh went to the school and after his fourth grade year 3 boys were asked not to come back, lol.  That teacher is dd's teacher this year!

Are you sure there is nothing being done?  I went in to talk to dd's teacher about our troubled kid and she let me know that she is doing all she can to work with the family (language barrier), with the child and with the other children letting her know when something happens (they really don't have eyes in the back of their heads!)

[LynnS6]

Disclaimer: My kids aren't in private schools, but I know a fair amount about them, having come from a long line of educators.

No school, Christian, secular or public is immune from bullying behavior. The behavior you describe is bullying. I would find the behavior you describe inacceptable in any school.

Second, just because someone has taught for 18 years doesn't mean that they've taught effectively for 18 years! Sometimes teachers end up in religious schools because that's their calling. Sometimes they end up there because they can't get hired by public schools. The fact that the teacher seems unable to control this behavior would be extremely worrisome to me. It's possible that this is just a tough group of kids to work with. But if that's the case, then she should be calling in extra help from the principal/school psychologist (or whatever they've got).

In your shoes, I'd talk to her again. I'd tell her that you think the behavior is getting out of hand and that you are going to go to the principal because you're so concerned. Note that this behavior is clearly contrary to the stated mission of the school and ask if she'd like to be part of the meeting. That way you're not going behind her back, but you're also not letting it slide. It's November. The longer this behavior goes on, the more entrenched it will be.

There's a delightful young man who switched from a local private shcool to our public school last year. Why? Because he was so bullied that he couldn't go back and the school refused to deal with the problem.  So my final point is: Christian schools aren't immune to bad administration either. It's in your children's best interests to speak up. Now.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Our school does several things that reinforce appropriate behavior.  All of these work together pretty well, though some classes and children respond better than others.  That doesn't mean there aren't occasional problems - my DS was on the receiving end of bullying last year (4th grade) and it took most of a semester before the problem was resolved.  That said, the emphasis at our school is in preventing things from getting that far and, for the most part, it works.

So, some things I see that help:

1.  Its a small school where teachers know all students and families.  Any staff member will speak to any student they see behaving inappropriately.  The kids are always being watched by someone.  That has pluses and minuses, but does cut down on meanness between kids.

2.  There are daily assemblies and/or values classes that focus specifically on the 12 core values of the school.  By the end of the first month or so, every student (and parent) knows these values by heart.  Then its easy for a teacher to say "Johny, was that kind/respectful/reverent?" or whatever.  Sometimes a student is asked to redo the situation with the proper behavior.

3.  All behavior expectations are written into the handbook (which all families are given) in positive terms.  Most of us use the same words for the same values at home as they do at school, so kids are really surrounded by these values.  Things like "Students are respectful by greeting adults by name and with eye contact."

4.  The school uses positive rewards in the form of "team points".  The school is divided into two teams and each team tries to win the school banner throughout the year.  Think Harry Potter.  No other reward beyond team pride.  Points are earned by doing the right thing (individually or as a group), being on time and in uniform, participation in class and assemblies, and sometimes during special events like carnivals and sports days.

5.  The vast majority of correction is verbal reminders, but they are really quick to respond to less-than-perfect behavior.  So even minor teasing will generate a question/suggestion for improving.  Very serious issues (hitting, threatening, defying a teacher) earn the student a trip to the office, a lecture by the asst. headmistress (who can sound very fierce) and a note (written by the student) to the parents.  Continued issues result in teacher/parent conferences and occasionally removal from school.

This year was sort of funny in terms of class discipline.  DD has a new-to-the-school teacher, who was previously in a public school.  She sent home a long letter about how she uses color coded cards and clips (the green/yellow/red thing).  About two months into the school year, she sent another note home saying, rather ruefully, that clearly such a system wasn't necessary on a daily basis, though she might still send home a colored card if a child really had been outrageous that day. 

I don't know if that helps at all, but watching these children does let me know that it is possible to have an orderly, polite, nice class of 2nd graders.

[AFWife]

I haven't read the rest of the replies but I wanted to offer an anecdote of sorts...

I went to a private Christian school for grades 1-3, Charter school for 4-6, and then public school until I graduated.

The ONLY differences I really remember was learning Bible stories/doing Bible drills and having more "freedom" in learning/teaching at the Christian school. (I guess because they didin't have to do the same standardized tests?) The charter school was small at the time (one class per grade) so the teachers could be more personal and teach to each kid...

But the behavior of the kids? Pretty much the same. I got teased the same in each school. Actually, because the charter school was smaller it was the worst. My mother was a playground worker at the Christian school and said she dealt with the exact same behavior issues that you find everywhere else.

Kids will be kids no matter the environment. I'm not saying that it's OKAY by any means...just saying that you can't pick your school dependent on the "environment" changing kids or something...

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by loveandkindness 

I guess if I felt this was "normal" 2nd grade behavior and something that can't be controlled even in a private, faith-based school, I could accept it more easily.  But it seems like something is not right when a school based on Christian values can't help the children live those values.  Perhaps I am just naive about what can be done/taught/instilled at a private school!

Even if it is normal behavior, she has to work at changing it! Not just say "kids will be kids."

Edited by Emmeline II - 11/17/10 at 11:06am

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II 
Even if it is normal behavior, she has to work at changing it! Not just say "kids will be kids."

I totally agree with this!  *Normal* isn't the same thing as "acceptable." Our school has a zero tolerance policy on bullying. Does that mean that bullying never happens? No. It means that the staff nip it in the bud when it does. It isn't allowed to continue.

Edited by Linda on the move - 11/18/10 at 5:38am

[loveandkindness]

Thank you everyone.  I had a meeting with the principal today and went over my concerns.  She said she will have a meeting with all the 2nd grade teachers to see what needs to be changed, and recommend one child be seen by a child psychologist.  I'm glad you all pushed me to act instead of waiting any longer.  And I appreciate all the ideas.  Especially the "winning the school banner" thing a la Harry Potter -- could really get them excited I would think.  I love how helpful all the mamas are here -- thanks!!

[thriftyqueen]

So glad you met with the principal.  It sounds like they are aware that changes needed to be made, but you going in may have been the extra nudge they needed.  Hopefully it is all uphill from here on out. 

[Linda on the move]

I think it's great that you brought this to their attention. It could make a much nicer rest of the year not just for your DD, but for the other children as well.

[frugalmum]

hi :).  I removed my children from a christian school where I felt the children's behavior was unacceptably rude, vulgar, and mean.  It was especially disheartening to do this since I expected so much more from a private/ religious school.  I have had children in public school and while it was worse there (especially in terms of vulgarity/ swearing) the behavior at the private school was just unacceptable.  My children witnessed knock down drag out fights, one fight where a teacher was thrown against a wall when she tried to intervene.  My youngest was bullied.  I gave the school three years until I gave up and pulled them out to homeschool.

Bad behavior is not acceptable in any school!  We could have shopped around for a more "elite" private school but with our number of children could not have afforded it.  My only regret is not pulling them out sooner.