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why is it my kids never behave but other kids do? - Page 6

post #101 of 146
Thread Starter 

I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.
I dont have any fear whatsoever that my child will end up with police involvement down the line.

I am trying to find the cause of his behavior and have found it. its pretty easy to make sure his friend will be there, and not bother, or go elsewhere, if the friend isnt coming. Why would i put him in a situation where he is unhappy, and then fight to control him?


Ive tried the advice on this board, and it doesnt work, The reason it doesnt work, is because it dont believe anymore that its an issue of discipline or of bounday testing. (i wasnt sure it was before either, but came to this board to discuss it, thinking we would have more in common in our approach-for eg, looking at needs first. There are cases where my kids test boundaries, and there is a difference.  


For whatever reason, the kid isnt happy in this setting, and i dont know why. I believe its because he wants friends., And is alittle bit intimidated by all the parents and kids together. Without the parents he is fine. In smaller groups settings he is fine.


And im sorry, but its normal for a child to be silly with friends. The girl i mentioned is a bully, and has never once been kind or said hello to my child.But without provocation  can be very mean.


Anyway, i dont want advice about discipline. I would be grateful for anyone who can offer insight into a situation like this, that doesnt involve making the child wrong and bad. (and me wrong and bad).


l repeat myelf again though-taking him out of the room, or home, wouldnt change a thing. He has to care about it, and i dont hink he would.


btw, there is a picture on the front page of this website, to the effect that 'children are not dogs to be trained'. I agree with that. Some people here dont seem to.

Also, the aspect of community is the first priority, if my son's friends are not there, there is no community for him. I just dont want to be in a place like that.

Being silly is not why he doesnt have friends. (ill look into that theory............not)

People come and go, friends come and go, cliques form, and there are a few bullies (kids exlcuding, ignoring, name calling) These things happen. I dont know why......

 

 

....im not sure im in a conversation here really, but using this board to think out loud, trying not to get hurt by some of the responses.

 

At a party yesterday, my boy was relatively quiet. The others were goofy. I couldnt understand why he was quiet-he said he was 'tired'.  Im afraid he is not making friends. its breaking my heart. At his shul, his friends have gone, and his goofy behavior has started. Maybe he's bored.

 

If i really believed the issue was that he wanted more boundaries from me, then i'd provide that. I just think there's more to this. So far, things have worked fine without me being heavy handed.  I still think the heavy handedness is just a bandaid (unless i was convinced that 'that' is what he was trying to get from me because he craved boundaries) 


Edited by contactmaya - 11/22/10 at 5:43am
post #102 of 146

 

Quote:
 l repeat myelf again though-taking him out of the room, or home, wouldnt change a thing. He has to care about it, and i dont hink he would.

 

 


 Taking him out of the room isn't IMO to teach him anything.  It's just to respect the other people in the room.  If he isn't there, he can't disturb other people.  I honestly don't think this is about his behaivor, it's more about you as the parent removing him when his behavior is inappropriate for the location, just as you'd remove yourself if you were coughing very loudly and couldn't get it under control.  You don't remove yourself to teach yourself not to cough.  You remove yourself so other people can hear what's going on instead of your coughing.

post #103 of 146

 

Quote:
 I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.
 

 

I have to ask if you are reading the responses? Everyone here has experienced this. Every single poster has explained issues they have had in stores and church and libraries and parks. I think what you are really surprised at is that no one is agreeing with you on how you are handling the discipline issues you are having.

 

And it is a discipline issue. That is not to say that discipline issues don't have roots in feelings-no one is saying that either and I think most of us understand that feelings and emotions are huge factors in how our children (or ourselves!!) are acting at any one moment.

 

However, when you are in a place where your son's behavior impacts others, then that place is not the time to wonder about why he is behaving the way he is. That is the time for removing him, reminding him about what is expected, and then going home if he can't succeed at that particular moment. If you read my post, we have issues at the library. Our issues stem from sheer joy at being around all those books. That doesn't mean he can scream though. And in order for him to continue to enjoy the library, I did him a favor by leaving when he couldn't control himself. Now we go to the library and we get to stay. And you know what? That is a consequence too-a consequence of polite behavior. Consequences can be good-it isn't always a negative.

 

The goal is to set expectations to set him up to succeed-and by setting him up to succeed I set him up to have fun and do something he loves-go to the library.

 

I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here.

 

Gentle discipline is a journey and a particular path we follow as parents-it is not a destination. And good parents take into consideration their children's temperments and needs and work within GD to find solutions that are fair and respectful of everyone involved. 

 

 

 

 

 

post #104 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.
I dont have any fear whatsoever that my child will end up with police involvement down the line.


Really?  I posted up-thread that I HAVE experienced misbehavior by my child when we're out in public.  It's happened - but there are limits as to what I will put up with, and I make clear what my expectations are.

 

I think that b/c you don't like the responses, you are choosing to ignore what we are telling you.  Thats fine, I'll exit the conversation now, since you aren't reading what I've posted, and aren't looking for advice.

post #105 of 146

The previous poster said "I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here."

 

I think it could be because the tone has been pretty harsh in recent posts. For example, when I read someone say "step up and be the parent," I cringed....obviously the OP wants to do whatever's right to do as the parent in this situation, but the tone of that had the feel of thwacking her on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper! (dog training analogy, there) And I saw several answers that were less-than-respectful to her.

 

She probably feels lectured.

 

I can actually identify pretty strongly with what she is saying because, even though my own very long post was all about the "teaching him appropriate behavior" end of it, I very MUCH care about the causes of the behavior too. His feelings. Because IF I am out someplace and I *ONLY* address the behavior/appropriateness side of it and ignore the causes or the feelings underneath the behavior (whether it be his age, or sensory issues, or feeling left out, or not knowing how to make friends, etc.) then I miss an opportunity to help my son in that setting (or avoid that setting, when possible, till he's better able to control his behavior there), to connect with him, to understand him, and most importantly of all, to prove to him that it's not just the grownups in the room that matter....HE matters. And so while I am teaching appropriate behavior, I am going to be conscious of what is going on in his head. I will ASK him about his feelings. Maybe he needs my help channeling them. It matters. In the store example that I gave, my son was wretched that day when 5 people complained about his behavior, yes...and I addressed that. But I also remember that he was EXHAUSTED that day (up late, up early) and had dark circles under his eyes. A factor for sure. I also know he prizes his independence, and his ability to keep occupied while he's in the store (walking around, he used to pretend to be a spy looking at other kids & shoppers). So I want to acknowledge that. I mean, for ME, shopping is interesting and important because it's my job to feed the family, but he is a person too....why wouldn't it be important that he find the shopping experience interesting too.....in his own way of course. Unless the attitude is, "too bad; he's a kid & he needs to obey." Great. Of course he has to behave appropriately but he is also a human being whose feelings are as worthy as mine.

 

I can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.

 

I don't know...I just felt like the OP was getting a little beat up on so I wanted to chime in.

post #106 of 146

 

Quote:
 

I can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.

 

Maybe I didn't express that part of my post very well. I absolutely think the root cause of the behavior is critical. Just not at the immediate moment necessarily. That is way I used my library experience-I knew WHY my son was screaming, but it didn't change the fact that at that moment screaming was not ok.

 

 

Quote:
  can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal. 

 

My son was biting other children. It was such a hard time in our lives. And he was biting because he wasn't able to verbalize his frustration. And we hovered over him and reminded him to use his words because we did know that the biting was frustration and not necessarily anger or aggression. We sympathized with him and helped him learn better choices. But in the heat of the moment he needed to be removed.

 

That is the point I was trying to make. Feelings and emotions are valid, but sometimes the choice we make in expressing those feelings and emotions isn't.

post #107 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

Ive tried the advice on this board, and it doesnt work,

 

 

For whatever reason, the kid isnt happy in this setting, and i dont know why. I believe its because he wants friends., And is alittle bit intimidated by all the parents and kids together. Without the parents he is fine. In smaller groups settings he is fine.


I would be grateful for anyone who can offer insight into a situation like this, that doesnt involve making the child wrong and bad. (and me wrong and bad).
 

I still haven't taken the time to figure out multiple quotes from one person on the new system, so I've just pulled what I wanted to comment on. First, I don't think that the distraction/prevention method works for all children. I have been through times when I've read what was written here and realized that most of the standard GD advice just doesn't work for my son. My dd is much easier to get, but my son has been challenging. So when people say things like, "I said it, and it was. My kids knew to accept it," that's great for some children. It doesn't work for all, so you may be right that much of what is being said does not jive with what works for your son.

 

Second, your son sounds like he's probably an introvert. Some types of introverts tend to become wild & silly when they're overwhelmed. My son is this way, and yes, we've had to learn what places don't work for him. Library story time, for example, never, ever worked. It still is a struggle for him at school, though he loves books. He's interested. He's engaged. The people & noise overwhelm him, and his reaction tends to be to go a little crazy, rather than to retreat into himself the way most introverts do.

 

Please don't feel like you or your son are bad people. You're not. It's all a learning curve. My mother-in-law is fond of saying that they had my husband (kid #4) because they thought they'd figured parenting out. He pushed & tested & generally caused mayhem regardless of what they tried. On the upside, he's tenacious & successful as an adult, but I'm sure he was a terror as a child. It sounds like you just need to get a handle on what works, but it's not a reflection on you or your son as people.

 

FWIW, there are 3 kids in my son's kindergarten class who cannot sit still. Their teacher works around making it so that they can move but the other kids can learn. I think the important thing is not to interrupt and disrespect other people's desire to have an enjoyable time. The three of you can figure out how to make things work as you go, but in the meantime, you may have to cut back on the things - or at least alter the type of things - you're going to.

post #108 of 146

This makes me giggle.  The roots of dog training are reinforcement and repetition, and most dogs are trained using positive reinforcement.  I've never smacked a dog with a rolled-up newspaper....what would that teach it?  To be afraid of newsprint?  That's silly.  What I do is set up situations where the dog will do what I want---eliciting or shaping behaviour---and then reward the desired behaviour.  If I am teaching the pup to, for example---behave in a restaurant, she's a service/therapy dog---I find a place where she can sit under the table and there isn;t a lot going on.  Then, I repeatedly reinforce that quiet behaviour.  If she gets up, I say--no, sit---and when she sits, I reward her.

 

Now what in the dickens is so wrong with using a modified version of this with kids?  I want kid to enjoy going out and to behave so they can go out.  I set up a place with low expectations and reinforce and reward good behaviour:  Honey, you are playing so nicely, we can stay longer if you'd like.  Honey, since you were so good at the store, we can go to the zoo tomorrow........but if the desired behaviour doesn't happen, I have to lower my threshold and shape smaller bits:  Thank you for saying hello nicely........etc.

 

If the child is pitching a fit---I differentiate between fit-pitching and a tantrum, actually---I remove myself, thus removing reinforcement, and reward at the first signs of desired behaviour, i.e. quiet.  Not punitive, not mean, and very clear-cut.  Most people benefit from knowing what is expected of them in a given situation.

post #109 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by NellieKatz View Post


She probably feels lectured.

 



I have to confess that I probably shouldn't even have posted here, because I wasn't feeling very helpful or sympathetic towards the OP. Perhaps other people felt the same way I did - that her initial post came off very "I'm a much better parent than all these other people, so I don't understand why my children don't behave - I guess it's because they scare their kids into obedience and I don't". She may not have meant it that way, but that's how it came across. She probably does feel lectured...but I felt (and I don't think I'm alone, but I can't speak for other posters) as though she was attacking every parents whose children do behave. There was - and to some extent, it's remained throughout the thread - a strong hint of "their children behave because they scare them into it".

post #110 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzylogic View Post

This makes me giggle.  The roots of dog training are reinforcement and repetition, and most dogs are trained using positive reinforcement.  I've never smacked a dog with a rolled-up newspaper....what would that teach it?  To be afraid of newsprint?  That's silly.  What I do is set up situations where the dog will do what I want---eliciting or shaping behaviour---and then reward the desired behaviour.  If I am teaching the pup to, for example---behave in a restaurant, she's a service/therapy dog---I find a place where she can sit under the table and there isn;t a lot going on.  Then, I repeatedly reinforce that quiet behaviour.  If she gets up, I say--no, sit---and when she sits, I reward her.

 

Now what in the dickens is so wrong with using a modified version of this with kids?  I want kid to enjoy going out and to behave so they can go out.  I set up a place with low expectations and reinforce and reward good behaviour:  Honey, you are playing so nicely, we can stay longer if you'd like.  Honey, since you were so good at the store, we can go to the zoo tomorrow........but if the desired behaviour doesn't happen, I have to lower my threshold and shape smaller bits:  Thank you for saying hello nicely........etc.

 

If the child is pitching a fit---I differentiate between fit-pitching and a tantrum, actually---I remove myself, thus removing reinforcement, and reward at the first signs of desired behaviour, i.e. quiet.  Not punitive, not mean, and very clear-cut.  Most people benefit from knowing what is expected of them in a given situation.


Hmm....you bring up REALLY good points!!!  I like it. 

 

One question though, how do you differentiate between fit-pitching and a tantrum?  Is it the age of the child (that was the first thing that came to mind - I could be WAY off base!)??  I'm just curious, b/c it sounds like you have a good method going on, and I'm curious to learn more :)

post #111 of 146

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

I am surprised at the lack of understanding here. I am even more surprised that noone has ever experienced anything like this.

 

I understand that you're not feeling listened to. It probably does feel like people are lecturing you. I'm sorry about that. What you've seen here is a range of the types of strategies that GD parents employ. I would, however, encourage you to re-read the posts when you've had time to think some more. I've extracted a lot of posts below. Many people posted that their children were like this. The solutions differed, but the one theme that was clear: clear expectations, clear boundaries, and appropriate consequences consistently enforced. There's the most debate about what 'appropriate' consequences are.

 

I would then say that if you do those things and that your children still misbehave, then you need to look at other causes: Is there something wrong with the situation? Are you not being consistent? Is it possible that your child has special needs (sensory, learning or other) that aren't addressed and so they can't apply what they know?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by terra-pip View Post

I have wondered the same thing about my kids. My two boys 7 and 3 just seem insane in public and at other peoples houses---sometimes at home too. Not always but a good part of the time.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

A couple of weeks ago we were at the library and my son started screaming for joy at a book.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post
My son is 22mo, but he's not clingy either.  He's COMPLETELY fearless.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post

One thing I want to mention is that your impression of your own kids vs. others' kids may be a bit off. I say this because I have a 21-month old who I feel like is 'all over the place', 'never listens', 'inappropriate' (i.e. not sharing, too loud, getting aggressive) etc.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post

It sounds like your kids do what many kids naturally do.  The difference is in parental response to those things. 

 

My kids are not naturally restrained either. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
However, I think kids that age do want to run wild and free and will disrupt naturally, consensual living or not, because they don't have the experience or history of learning to read/interpret/respond to social cues.  Five year olds being silly during the children's time at a service are par for the course in every place of worship I've been to (it often gets a chuckle and delights the worshipers too). 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
We do sometimes "banish" a child, especially ds2, but it's not framed as a punishment. It's more of a "you need to calm down, and can't seem to do that here" or a "you're being very disruptive, and if you want to jump up and down and scream, you're going to have to do it somewhere else" thing.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by reezley View Post

My boys seem like the type yours are - always on the go, have to try out every corner of the room, trying sneak off and do the thing they're not allowed to do.  I believe some kids really just are more of a handful!  My younger is the mellower one, but the two of them together can be trying.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post

 

If you do not want to leave--you feel it's too harsh--then "calming down in the car" is a good one.  I have two girls that are just... well they do seem normal compared to the other kids I know, but from what I read on here, we run in wild circles, LOL! 

 

<snip>

 

Except that once-a-week post office trip.  Those are my kids, climbing while I run across the hall, signing a customs form with one hand and grabbing them with the other, muttering under my breath.  Yeah.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

 If it gives you comfort, we have all been there (see bolded part).  Sometimes a parent can feel extremely alone in a situation where his/her child is acting out and everyone else's kids seem to be doing fine.  I have had a tough time with this myself. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
Some kids get energized by the extra stimulation of being out in public. Sometimes it's because they're extroverts and it gives them energy. Sometimes because it's sensory overload and they're not very good at regulating that. One thing that you might try (sorry, maybe it's been suggested - I did skim) is to give them a lot of large motor physical exercise to get the energy out before going someplace that might expect somewhat more mellow behavior.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Having a high energy and outgoing toddler can be exhausting for a young child's parents, but being high energy and outgoing can help a person be a socially successful and productive person.  Some of the other high energy outgoing preschoolers and toddlers just don't go to places where they can't behave appropriately. My 5 year old DD took a year long break from restaurants, indoor kids groups (like library story time) and most shopping when she was around two. She just was just too busy to be safe or behave appropriately at some places. We also started going to parks that had fences or were surrounded by very large fields.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post

Uh, I experience it all the time (with GIRLS!  OMG!  LOL).

 

I leave the area.

 

Yes it sucks.

 

Yes it is tiring.

 

Yes people stare.

 

Welcome to my world.  You can look at my past posts.  My kids are monkeys. 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
, i let her run.  When she got about a quarter of a mile from us (it's the city green, so plenty big enough to let her run) he began to twitch gently round the edges and i said "so, you see?" and he said "Oh my!" and i sprinted after her and brought her back.  My eldest was a very HN baby, and a is a very spirited child.  She is very intelligent and precocious.  About 80% of the time she really CAN work stuff out for herself, but she thinks it's 100% so fairly often i am having to force her to stop something or reconsider or whatever.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirMiami View Post

My daughter is exactly like your son.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NellieKatz View Post

(this turned out to be a horrifically long answer, but it's a story of how I dealt with this situation, with success. so if anyone's looking for ideas....)

 

I used to ask the OP's question all the time. My DS, now 7 (will be 8 in a few months) has always been "different." (We are eclectic homeschoolers tending toward unschooling). He is creative, very physical, amazingly verbal, easily "set off" by loud sounds, chaotic settings, certain music, or physical "attacks" (i.e. aggressive play or behaviors) from other kids. Needless to say we've had our times where I thought "wow, I really wish I could get my kid to be 'well behaved' like other people's kids". He doesn't fear authority in the least. (frankly, I think this will serve him well if anyone tries to manipulate or harm him in the coming years)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post


Appropriate control changes with the age and development of the child.  My 3 yo needs a LOT more active communication about, and enforcement of rules than my 9 yo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carma View Post

Didn't read everything yet. Our kids are 5 and 3 (+ a 6 month old baby). When our kids are loud and wild in public, it is usually because they are tired or hungry.


 

post #112 of 146

 

One of the things that has struck me is that you are starting to narrow down the 'problem'. Your 5 year old seems to have problems in temple when he's trying to get the attention of a child who's not interested in interacting with him and is somewhat of a bully. In addition, "all his friends have gone" at shul. It sounds to me that he doesn't have a community right now (except one child?) and that he's desperately seeking more. His unmet need, then, is social interaction.

 

What he lacks, it appears, is knowledge and effective strategies for how to engage other children. He may also lack skills in determining when to walk away because a child has given him clues that s/he is not interested. That's not surprising for a 5 year old. But it does give you a place to start. How can you teach him skills to get his needs met that don't involve him being silly? Being silly is a good strategy in some cases. All 5-6 year olds I know bond over being silly. However, it's not appropriate in all cases. How can you help him learn the appropriate cases? How can you help him learn an alternative behavior that gets his needs met? 

 

The other thing that I'd think about is: How can you get your needs for community met when your children's behavior is such that leaving is the best option? I have a partner to help me take up that slack. You don't. I sense that part of your frustration is that you don't want to leave. Very understandable. So if your need is to stay, what else can you do? Can you recruit some helpers at temple? Is there a teenager who would love to have an excuse to hang out with kids ? Our nursery recruits older elementary and middle school kids to play in the nursery. Win-win for everyone. Is something like that possible?

post #113 of 146

BTW, the rolled-up newspaper analogy had nothing to do with the discussion...it was the way it felt to ME when some people spoke to the OP. Like they were scolding her.

post #114 of 146

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post

 

 


 Taking him out of the room isn't IMO to teach him anything.  It's just to respect the other people in the room.  If he isn't there, he can't disturb other people.  I honestly don't think this is about his behaivor, it's more about you as the parent removing him when his behavior is inappropriate for the location, just as you'd remove yourself if you were coughing very loudly and couldn't get it under control.  You don't remove yourself to teach yourself not to cough.  You remove yourself so other people can hear what's going on instead of your coughing.

 

Yes, yes, and a million times, yes.

 

I'm sure, 100% sure, that my 18-month-old isn't going to learn a darn tooting thing if I ask her to leave a play place if, say, she hits. At least... not the first ten or twenty times. She *might* start getting the picture after a month or two of repetition, but the impulse control, the empathy, the logic, it's just not there yet. Even my four-year-old will not appear to care at the time. She will just insist she go back in. Well, no. I would say about four months ago, that would have been here. It is FINALLY beginning to sink in, however, it should be very clear that removing myself or my children is not about a punishment. It is simply what is done, and yes, kids will learn that eventually, but we have to do it, regardless.

 

However!

 

I understand that you may feel that your leaving is really too harsh a punishment for YOU at that point.

 

And again, if you see in my posts, that is my problem, too.  I have to go to the post office at times, and I can't just leave and come back a gazillion times.  And when they know that they are in control--that there are no real consequences for their behavior--they do *exactly* what you describe your children doing.

 

For me, this is aggravating and usually I do tell them later that I'm really not in the mood for going straight to the park as I don't feel like being in public with them, which is true.  We calm down and I ask them for an apology.  We might go to the park later if I feel they have calmed down.  But ultimately it's a five to ten minute trip so I feel it's not a huge deal.  When they are older, I can bribe them.

 

I think LynnS has a lot of good stuff to say about this.

 

And I do understand what you mean by having tried everything... and being at your wits' end.  Maybe that is what you feel other parents have not experienced?  Believe me, we have!  But if we were presently at that point I guess we would not be posting answers, would we?  So take all of this as advice from people who truly have been there.  Or at least... from some of us.  LOL!

post #115 of 146
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NellieKatz View Post

The previous poster said "I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here."

 

I think it could be because the tone has been pretty harsh in recent posts. For example, when I read someone say "step up and be the parent," I cringed....obviously the OP wants to do whatever's right to do as the parent in this situation, but the tone of that had the feel of thwacking her on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper! (dog training analogy, there) And I saw several answers that were less-than-respectful to her.

 

She probably feels lectured.

 

I can actually identify pretty strongly with what she is saying because, even though my own very long post was all about the "teaching him appropriate behavior" end of it, I very MUCH care about the causes of the behavior too. His feelings. Because IF I am out someplace and I *ONLY* address the behavior/appropriateness side of it and ignore the causes or the feelings underneath the behavior (whether it be his age, or sensory issues, or feeling left out, or not knowing how to make friends, etc.) then I miss an opportunity to help my son in that setting (or avoid that setting, when possible, till he's better able to control his behavior there), to connect with him, to understand him, and most importantly of all, to prove to him that it's not just the grownups in the room that matter....HE matters. And so while I am teaching appropriate behavior, I am going to be conscious of what is going on in his head. I will ASK him about his feelings. Maybe he needs my help channeling them. It matters. In the store example that I gave, my son was wretched that day when 5 people complained about his behavior, yes...and I addressed that. But I also remember that he was EXHAUSTED that day (up late, up early) and had dark circles under his eyes. A factor for sure. I also know he prizes his independence, and his ability to keep occupied while he's in the store (walking around, he used to pretend to be a spy looking at other kids & shoppers). So I want to acknowledge that. I mean, for ME, shopping is interesting and important because it's my job to feed the family, but he is a person too....why wouldn't it be important that he find the shopping experience interesting too.....in his own way of course. Unless the attitude is, "too bad; he's a kid & he needs to obey." Great. Of course he has to behave appropriately but he is also a human being whose feelings are as worthy as mine.

 

I can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.

 

I don't know...I just felt like the OP was getting a little beat up on so I wanted to chime in.

 

Nelliekatz, thankyou for understanding. Its amazing how people can misunderstand each other. For eg, i did explain that i dont feel judgmental of other parents whose kids behave,(in my first post) i am just trying to understand. How is that bad? But i offended people obviously, and even after i have explained,  it doesnt make any difference.

 There have been some helpful posts on this thread, and nellieklatz, and oakttreemama, yours came to mind. I appreciate it.

 

I have listened and even tried some of the advice on this forum, but dont see it necessarily working, even if it did for you.

 I dont want to get defensive here, just want to thank those for trying to help and for trying to understand.

 

 

 


 

post #116 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NellieKatz View Post

The previous poster said "I guess I don't understand why you are so hesitant to set boundaries and so resistent to the advice given here."

 

I think it could be because the tone has been pretty harsh in recent posts. For example, when I read someone say "step up and be the parent," I cringed....obviously the OP wants to do whatever's right to do as the parent in this situation, but the tone of that had the feel of thwacking her on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper! (dog training analogy, there) And I saw several answers that were less-than-respectful to her.

 

She probably feels lectured.

 

I can actually identify pretty strongly with what she is saying because, even though my own very long post was all about the "teaching him appropriate behavior" end of it, I very MUCH care about the causes of the behavior too. His feelings. Because IF I am out someplace and I *ONLY* address the behavior/appropriateness side of it and ignore the causes or the feelings underneath the behavior (whether it be his age, or sensory issues, or feeling left out, or not knowing how to make friends, etc.) then I miss an opportunity to help my son in that setting (or avoid that setting, when possible, till he's better able to control his behavior there), to connect with him, to understand him, and most importantly of all, to prove to him that it's not just the grownups in the room that matter....HE matters. And so while I am teaching appropriate behavior, I am going to be conscious of what is going on in his head. I will ASK him about his feelings. Maybe he needs my help channeling them. It matters. In the store example that I gave, my son was wretched that day when 5 people complained about his behavior, yes...and I addressed that. But I also remember that he was EXHAUSTED that day (up late, up early) and had dark circles under his eyes. A factor for sure. I also know he prizes his independence, and his ability to keep occupied while he's in the store (walking around, he used to pretend to be a spy looking at other kids & shoppers). So I want to acknowledge that. I mean, for ME, shopping is interesting and important because it's my job to feed the family, but he is a person too....why wouldn't it be important that he find the shopping experience interesting too.....in his own way of course. Unless the attitude is, "too bad; he's a kid & he needs to obey." Great. Of course he has to behave appropriately but he is also a human being whose feelings are as worthy as mine.

 

I can think of one particular example, where my son (a few years back) would just go up to strange kids in the playground, sandbox, or whatever, and hit them. Turns out he wanted to join in their play but did not know how to approach and join their group. If I had just focused on the wrongness of the hitting without understanding why he did it, I'd miss the chance to suggest constructive ways he might achieve his goal.

 

I don't know...I just felt like the OP was getting a little beat up on so I wanted to chime in.

 

Nelliekatz, thankyou for understanding. Its amazing how people can misunderstand each other. For eg, i did explain that i dont feel judgmental of other parents whose kids behave,(in my first post) i am just trying to understand. How is that bad? But i offended people obviously, and even after i have explained,  it doesnt make any difference.

 There have been some helpful posts on this thread, and nellieklatz, and oakttreemama, yours came to mind. I appreciate it.

 

I have listened and even tried some of the advice on this forum, but dont see it necessarily working, even if it did for you.

 I dont want to get defensive here, just want to thank those for trying to help and for trying to understand.

 

 


Try to keep in mind that nothing will work the first, second or even third times - especially if its a new thing.  It needs to be done repeatedly, especially when setting limits is a new thing (like with a 5yo - they have learned that there aren't any, so when you set them it takes longer and more repetition for them to understand that you are serious).  Doesn't mean it doesn't work, just takes more time, and more repetition.

 

It may feel like it doesn't work at first, particularly if you only go to this specific place once/week (or even twice/week) - since you just posted this thread a few days ago right?  Then again, not all methods work for all children, so you have to find what works for yours - but it won't be some magical solution, it will take time for your children to unlearn habits just like it takes time for anyone to unlearn habits they want to change.

post #117 of 146

SSM, I think the OP has already tried these methods, like, before she posted, probably for months or even years, and they weren't working for her, and she's having a hard time seeing how/why they are working for other people.

 

And the answer is probably temperament, and also, OP, I forgot to mention... I'm not sure how many other kids were in that class, but let's say ten.  I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they all happened to be easier to discipline than your kids.  Being in the more difficult 5 - 20% is not unheard of.  So you may see more kids like yours as time goes on.

 

If not, PM me and I'll let you know the next time we go to the post office or I try to run in and buy just one thing at the store because it's something we REALLY need like, THAT DAY.  I'll let you know our coordinates.  You are free to watch on Google Earth as mayhem ensues.  You might even be able to hear it from outer space, LOL!

post #118 of 146

I can totally relate to your frustration OP.  I had many difficult times when my LOs were that age and younger.  I have had those thoughts as well.  My children did not stay calmly by my side.  They were mostly struggly by my side with lots of attention from me to keep them within the boundaries including stopping them from leaving my side and leaving when that could not be managed gracefully and quietly enough.  My children did not follow their parents' example for behavior nor the examples of the other children that seemed on some level simply to be in tune with the expectations of the environment. 

 

I had strategies that could influence my children's behavior (many mentioned here and many that you've tried as well), and I usually could predict what I was facing when considering an outing with children in tow.  I weighed things out before I decided to go.  Could I face what I knew was likely to happen?  Would "preparations" for appropriate behavior likely be effective?  How many interventions could I manage?  How much of expected problems would I tolerate?  Did I have an exit plan?  Did I have the energy for it all?  Would I be able to enjoy myself?  Etc.  I had to be honest about what environments I could function in with my children, and choose not to be where we couldn't be comfortable.  For something important to me, I might give up temporarily and try again a few months later or plan to attend with fewer of my children with me.

 

Probably the reason you are not seeing other children act like yours is that those moms decided to stay home.  The ones who have an easy time going out do so often, while those who have a difficult time are rarely seen.

 

I agree with PPs that mentioned temperament as well.   Some kids get overstimulated very easily or have tons of restless energy that they will only gradually learn to manage themselves.  But while they are learning, things are rough.  There is nothing necessarily wrong with your children or your parenting and it sucks if you compare yourself with others.  Especially when it looks like it is easy for them.  I have one delightfully easy child, one moderately easy child, and two intensely difficult children including one with an ASD.  If all my children were like my two easier ones then you would have been looking at us.  But they're not all like that and no parenting choices could have made them so.  They do all grow up.  A 2yo in church services is hit and miss--a few might be able to handle it.  But when your LO is 4yo things will be different, and better.  And time really does pass quickly. 

post #119 of 146

Fit-pitching vs tantrum:  It can have something to do with the age of the child---toddlers melt-down because of lack of verbal skills.  I don't expect a kid without a whole lot of expressive language to tell me what is wrong, and I do expect them to scream in frustration.  Wouldn't you?  They are truly out of control, and in general oblivious to what is going on around them until they wear themselves out a bit.

 

 

But a child with language is expected to use their words, not fling things around and throw themselves on the floor.  If you watch, there is an element of deliberation in the fit-pitching.  If you remove the audience, the kid will often follow said audience into another area.  They are capable of self-control in other areas of their lives---good at school, carrying on at home for example--which tells me that they can turn it off and on.

 

Lots of dog people with joking talk about click/treat as a method of kid training, but it actually is a very functional way--using a verbal marker--of teaching kids what you expect.  The point of the verbal marker is that you tell the kid PRECISELY what behaviour it is that you like....(click) at the precise time they do it, and offer a reward (praise, i.e treat) so that they know what it is that you want.  Setting a child up for success is far more functional than punishing kids for bad behaviour....for one thing, punishment tends to extinquish desire to experiment or "offer" new behaviours, rather "immoblizing" the kid and diminishing their coping ability.

post #120 of 146

My older dd still had tantrums where she was not control and there was nothing deliberate when she was very verbal.  Verbal skills take care of some tantrums, but not all for all kids,  Some kids are very intense and keep having them after becoming verbal, in some cases for years after becoming verbal.

 

And she did outgrow them without rewards or punishment, and is now a delightful almost-9-year-old.

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