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post #121 of 146



The problem is, precocious verbal skills do not mean a child has emotional development beyond that of the typical toddler or preschooler.  I think a lot of parents ::::raising hand::::: sometimes expect too much from small children who are early communicators.  That alone can lead to frustration and meltdowns.

 

As for turning it on and off--yes, that is true, and it can be a sign that the parent is doing something right!  It shows the child is learning rules and the beginnings of self control.  Of course the child will "let it all out" with the parent, because that is a "safe" situation.  The problem is---WHY does the child have so much to "let out"?  What have they been bottling up?  Do they need help with coping skills?  Is there a problem that needs to be resolved?  Investigation is necessary.

 

BUT--in the mean time, the child needs to know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior regardless of how they are feeling in the moment.  Children need to know that some things are absolutely unacceptable.  They also need to be taught how to appropriately express and deal with their negative feelings. 

Originally Posted by fuzzylogic View Post

 

But a child with language is expected to use their words, not fling things around and throw themselves on the floor.  If you watch, there is an element of deliberation in the fit-pitching.  If you remove the audience, the kid will often follow said audience into another area.  They are capable of self-control in other areas of their lives---good at school, carrying on at home for example--which tells me that they can turn it off and on.

  

post #122 of 146


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post


As for turning it on and off--yes, that is true, and it can be a sign that the parent is doing something right!  It shows the child is learning rules and the beginnings of self control.  Of course the child will "let it all out" with the parent, because that is a "safe" situation.  The problem is---WHY does the child have so much to "let out"?  What have they been bottling up?  Do they need help with coping skills?  Is there a problem that needs to be resolved?  Investigation is necessary.  I think the state of being a child creates that stress, but I disagree that I own the problem of solving it.  That is the kid's problem.  Also, they carry on at home because they can.  Pitching fits at school only gets them ridicule.  Pitching fits at home gets them a flustered, upset and sympathetic mom.  Carrying on at church gets them mama fussing over them, when it ought to get them a swift trip to the lobby to consider the effect of their behaviour on someone else.

 

 

BUT--in the mean time, the child needs to know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior regardless of how they are feeling in the moment.  Children need to know that some things are absolutely unacceptable.  They also need to be taught how to appropriately express and deal with their negative feelings. Again, my job is to teach them what how to behave.  Dealing with their "negative feelings" is their problem.  Providing clear, consistent boundaries and rewarding positive behaviours is the fastest way to get there.
 

 

 

Originally Posted by fuzzylogic View Post

 

But a child with language is expected to use their words, not fling things around and throw themselves on the floor.  If you watch, there is an element of deliberation in the fit-pitching.  If you remove the audience, the kid will often follow said audience into another area.  They are capable of self-control in other areas of their lives---good at school, carrying on at home for example--which tells me that they can turn it off and on.

  

post #123 of 146

fuzzylogic....i'm sure you are a very good dog trainner.  But kids are not dogs. And I consider teaching how to deal with negative emotions a very big part of being a parent. 

 

I'm going to leave it at that. I really find your posts shoking, on many levels.

post #124 of 146

 

Quote:
  I think the state of being a child creates that stress, but I disagree that I own the problem of solving it.  That is the kid's problem. 

 

I really disagree with this. Young children often need our help to learn to control their emotions. Even if what we are doing isn't helping in the immediate moment (i.e. a temper tantrum in church means we leave now and help later) we as parents should be trying to figure out what the triggers are and help our child navigate them.

 

As kids get older they can start to learn how to control their emotions on their own, and how to resolve conflict without resorting to meltdowns. But younger children need to know that we are there for them.

 

This idea that it is the kid's problem puts way too much of a burden on a young child. I am guiding my son through life right now-I let him make choices sometimes so he is starting to learn how to act in polite company but I also know he still needs my help in many areas to be successful.

 

It is a delicate balance for sure but I certainly believe I own part of the problem solving with my child.

 

I don't feel like I am explaining my objections very well. But boy this comment really created a dissonance in what I believe young children need.

post #125 of 146



The kid's problem?  That perspective seems to lack understanding and empathy. 

 

So, if the child is stressed because of problems at home or school, they should deal with that alone?  If the child is anxious, scared, or bullied, that is their problem to solve alone?  Kind of harsh if you ask me. 

 

Speaking from my own experience, my child's inappropriate acting out stopped when consistent discipline was combined with treatment for her anxiety.  When years of consistent discipline failed to fix the problem, we knew it was time to look for some outside help.  I generally think that is a good guideline for parents: if traditional methods of discipline are not working for your child, and your child's behavior prevents your child from doing things that peers can do (holding your child back from opportunities and experiences), it is time to seek some outside help.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzylogic View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post


As for turning it on and off--yes, that is true, and it can be a sign that the parent is doing something right!  It shows the child is learning rules and the beginnings of self control.  Of course the child will "let it all out" with the parent, because that is a "safe" situation.  The problem is---WHY does the child have so much to "let out"?  What have they been bottling up?  Do they need help with coping skills?  Is there a problem that needs to be resolved?  Investigation is necessary.  I think the state of being a child creates that stress, but I disagree that I own the problem of solving it.  That is the kid's problem.  Also, they carry on at home because they can.  Pitching fits at school only gets them ridicule.  Pitching fits at home gets them a flustered, upset and sympathetic mom.  Carrying on at church gets them mama fussing over them, when it ought to get them a swift trip to the lobby to consider the effect of their behaviour on someone else.

 

 

BUT--in the mean time, the child needs to know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior regardless of how they are feeling in the moment.  Children need to know that some things are absolutely unacceptable.  They also need to be taught how to appropriately express and deal with their negative feelings. Again, my job is to teach them what how to behave.  Dealing with their "negative feelings" is their problem.  Providing clear, consistent boundaries and rewarding positive behaviours is the fastest way to get there.
 

 

 

post #126 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

 

Quote:
  I think the state of being a child creates that stress, but I disagree that I own the problem of solving it.  That is the kid's problem. 

 

I really disagree with this. Young children often need our help to learn to control their emotions. Even if what we are doing isn't helping in the immediate moment (i.e. a temper tantrum in church means we leave now and help later) we as parents should be trying to figure out what the triggers are and help our child navigate them.

 

As kids get older they can start to learn how to control their emotions on their own, and how to resolve conflict without resorting to meltdowns. But younger children need to know that we are there for them.

 

This idea that it is the kid's problem puts way too much of a burden on a young child. I am guiding my son through life right now-I let him make choices sometimes so he is starting to learn how to act in polite company but I also know he still needs my help in many areas to be successful.

 

It is a delicate balance for sure but I certainly believe I own part of the problem solving with my child.

 

I don't feel like I am explaining my objections very well. But boy this comment really created a dissonance in what I believe young children need.



I kind of agree with FuzzyLogic, and I don't think she's saying that its not her problem at all.  Yes, we are here to teach our children how to act in certain situations, with clear expectations and boundaries.  While we can help our children learn how to handle their emotions, and give them the tools with which to do so, we can't actually solve the problem - the child has to do that themselves.  Some of it we can do, sure - we can provide an emotionally/physically safe place for our children to express their emotions, we can feed them, bath them, help with homework and model problem solving with our friends/spouses/parents/kids, but when our children have a problem there will, eventually, be little we can do to actually solve it.  While they are young (0-3 or 4 maybe, haven't gotten there yet!), we can largely solve the problems they face - hunger, thirst, needing cuddles, etc.  When they reach school age and start having problems with friends, or problems with teachers - we can guide them, and we can help talk to teachers and parents, but the problem itself will likely be largely up to the child to solve.

post #127 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

I havent read all  of the responses-i gleaned a little bit of 'well if mothers like you would actually teach their kids some manners...' kind of attitude, so wasnt inpsired to read further. I could be mistaken, and i want to thank everyone for offering their wisdom and  especially those with experience of consesual living.

 

My kids probably are a little  more daring than others, because they havent learned fear. This isnt a criticism of other people, or of anyone on this board, so please dont take it as such. On top of that, they probably have personality types that make  disruptive bahviour more likely, but they are great in a playground. Being boys, also makes this more likely. (girls can be like this too, but from what i have observed, its less common) 



I have 3 kids...1 with autism who had absolutely no fear of anything.  As a toddler/preschooler, he was so into his own world that he didn't even really notice anything around him, so he didn't really have a fear of it.  He also had no concept that other people didn't find his public outburts/tantrums/meltdowns/screeching cute or funny or appropriate.  I also have a preschooler with reactive attachment disorder.  She ONLY feared people.  Nothing else.  She once ran onto a busy city street (we obviously almost killed ourselves trying to catch her.  We weren't purposely letting her run...she had gotten out of our grip and bolted into the street).  She also threw full blown RAGES.  In public, at home, wherever.  And now I have a perfectly typical, but spunky toddler.  So, I've pretty much run the gamut of types of kids.  I think I "get" all of them...from absolutely fearless, to completely uninhibited, to perfectly typical.

 

That being said, they are able to go to church without being disruptive, I can take all 3 of them all by myself to stores or the library without a single problem.  I have taken them to safaris and zoos without other people having to feel like my kids are ruining their experience.  My children behave in public 90% of the time they are in public.  They are not scared of me, nor my husband.  I don't beat them into submission, take away their curiousity (these are now some of the most curious active kids around and LOVE spending their days exploring indoors and out), they are not screamed at or spanked or grounded.  All of those things you said in your OP that "well behaved" kids must have had done to them is not true.

 

However, they do get LIMITS.  They need to learn to function in society, and it's my job as a parent to do it.  It is usually *not* very fun for me...I've had to spend an entire Catholic mass outside under an awning in the rain with a tantruming child because she couldn't stop screaming at mass because she was upset over something.  It's not the other worshipper's job to put up with my kids...it's *my* job to remove them.  I've had to leave a shopping cart full of merchandise at the store and take the tantruming child outside to chill out so people don't have to listen to him screaming in the store.  I've had to take the kids home from the playground 15 minutes after getting there because they were unable to handle it on that particular day.  I also reward good behavior--if they are being good at the park or zoo, I will let them stay a little longer than we had planned, for example.  If they are quiet at mass, I might let them color or play with a special toy I brought with me.  Stuff like that.  My kids are fully aware of what is appropriate behavior in public because not only do I model it, but I will remove them from the situation until they are better able to be in it (sometimes it's for 5 minutes, sometimes it's for several days).  I reinforce the behaviors that are acceptable.  And, if something is so inappropriate, they will be disciplined.  Disciplining isn't always spanking...many things have natural consequences.  And for those that do not have acceptable natural consequences (for example, when DD bolted onto a busy street during rush hour...obviously the natural consequence is too horrible to allow), I change the situation so that it can't happen again.  For several months after DD bolted, she was required to have a harness on her or be carried any time we were close to a street--no more just holding hands until she could demonstrate appropriate behavior. 

 

Another thing that makes it appear that my kids are so well behaved (when in actuality, they're just normal rambunctious kids) is that I carefully plan each part of the outing.  If I have a bolter, I will make sure to park the car in such a way that her seat is the one closes to the sidewalk, so that I can carry her straight to her seat while still standing next to the other child on the sidewalk (or I will set the bolter in the front seat for a few minutes while I get everyone else in their seats).  I don't leave the house without appropriate snacks and fresh new toys they haven't seen in awhile.  I plan outings for the least crowded times of the day and least crowded days of the week to minimize the risk of overstimulation to the kids and minimize the number of other people that might have to witness rowdy kids (LOL!).  I sit in the cry room with all of the children if it's looking like the older kids aren't handeling mass well that day.  I sit closest to the door otherwise, so that if the kid gets fussy, I can remove her before it escalates.  I make sure they get a lot of active play before going somewhere where they would have to sit still for an extended period of time.  I don't take them to the store before meals.  Stuff like that goes a long way.

post #128 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post



The problem is, precocious verbal skills do not mean a child has emotional development beyond that of the typical toddler or preschooler.  I think a lot of parents ::::raising hand::::: sometimes expect too much from small children who are early communicators.  That alone can lead to frustration and meltdowns.



I know I've had trouble with this one. I found it much easier to maintain an appropriate level of expectations with ds2 than with dd1 or ds1. DS2 took a long time to become verbal, whereas the older two were both verbally precocious. Since they could use the words, I kept thinking they could handle everything that lay under the words. It was pretty hard on all of us sometimes.

post #129 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post

My older dd still had tantrums where she was not control and there was nothing deliberate when she was very verbal.  Verbal skills take care of some tantrums, but not all for all kids,  Some kids are very intense and keep having them after becoming verbal, in some cases for years after becoming verbal.

 

And she did outgrow them without rewards or punishment, and is now a delightful almost-9-year-old.

 

THis is spot on.  My son was very verbal quite early, but had meltdowns from 3 to 4.5 pretty regularly.  

 

You can have all the words in the world, but when you get overloaded with sensory information you can't process, you still flip out. 

You could *see* DS lose control, and one symptom was that he'd get "stuck" on one saying sometime, and you could watch the ability to be rational just -- leave his brain.  

 

It was not manipulative, he was not conscious of it coming on, and it was not something he was enjoying or controlling.  He could not be jollied out of it, bribed or joked past it.  

Eventually, with help and coaching, he learned ways to regain his self control and maintain it.  He's got coping skills for the underlying issues now.  

 

With my dd, I got to see the difference -- the lying on the ground screaming, but watching me for my reaction, and modulating her response based on where I was physically in relation to her and whether I was responding or not.   With her, I could say "I'm sorry you're disappointed, but X can't happen right now.  Would you like to do Y or Z instead, and maybe later we can do X?"  And she'd pause and think and (usually) say "Oh, okay!"  

 

With DD, I understood all the people on the GD forum who tell parents of melter-downers "Oh, just explain it all to them and they'll get it."     And I also understood the total difference between what DD was doing -- which could be reasoned with -- and what DS was doing -- which was out of his control or reasoning.
 

post #130 of 146

The child does not want to be there and the parent does. It is not consenual living when the only person making the decisions is the 2 yr old. I still stand by my belief that at 2 yrs old, the child should be allowed to stay in a nursery if need be. As far as simply leaving but never speaking to the child about it, the child will never learn. How is he to even know why you are leaving? And what are you going to do when the child is 15 and does not want to go to school? What if he is 3 and wants to run in the street? What if he is caught shoplifting at 12 yrs old?  I still stand by my opinion that a child needs a parent. Children should not be left to raise themselves. If you do not correct your child now, society will eventually. Eventually, someone will tell him no, he will have to follow rules and laws and if he won't, there wil be consequences, everything from no friends to prison time.

post #131 of 146

I find it funny that people are thinking a kid raised consensually won't know how to function in the real world and end up in jail. The OP is obviously a thoughtful, introspective mother who is not raising her kids "hands-off" or neglectfully. It takes a lot of work to parent this way, just like it takes a lot more work to discipline without spanking. 

post #132 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandelionkid View Post

I find it funny that people are thinking a kid raised consensually won't know how to function in the real world and end up in jail. The OP is obviously a thoughtful, introspective mother who is not raising her kids "hands-off" or neglectfully. It takes a lot of work to parent this way, just like it takes a lot more work to discipline without spanking. 



It does take a lot more work.  Which is what we're telling this mom.  DO THE WORK.  Not random plans like depending on some 5 year old to show up and magically inspire him to behave. 

post #133 of 146
Thread Starter 

Friend shows up, and my 5yo behaves-its not magic, its logical. My 5yo feels more integrated with a friend there and has somewhere to focus his excitable energy.  My observation of this is part of what i consider responsible and competent parenting.

 

5yo wants to be there, i have asked him many times.

 

Thankyou pp for the comment that apsiring to live consesually is hard work. Im not abdicating my parenting responsibilities because i think deeply about issues, and have doubts, because i second guess myself, or see the complexity in issues, especially parenting. Wow, thats one complicated subject.

 

I havent following this thread in detail because i dont have time, but have noticed alot of really helpfup  posts,  some critical of me, and some more understanding, but i intend to read them all  in more detail and think about them more.

 

In the meantime, i am thinking more and more about what discipline really is, and loving all the more how i choose  not to engage in power struggles with my kids as much as is possible. Its not always possible. I do notice that children go through phases and they grow out of it.  Maybe 5yo will just grow out of it.

 

Maybe i am comparing my kids to others too much, and that is a mistake as one pp pointed out.

 

Maybe overstimulus is an issue and it will never change, and i will never be able to take my 5yo to a place with too many people without some sort of reaction.

 

Only time will tell. And

i wonder if i did engage is some sort of  significant consequence with the intent of changing behaviour (a consequence other than explaining why its not ok to bother other people, and leaving room or building), whether the behaviorial change was just coincidental to maturity.

post #134 of 146

Hi - I haven't read the whole thread, just the initial post and a few after.  Just wanted to offer a hug.  Sometimes I feel the same way, but other people's kids have their moments too.  And a prohibited playground in front of a 2yr old? that just sounds like a bad situation.  It sounds like you're committed to parenting in a thoughtful way and having a period of self-doubt.  You'll figure it out. hug.gif

post #135 of 146
Thread Starter 

Thanks :-)  I have to admit the prohibitive playground is a recipe for disaster.  The service takes place in a preschool, but kids arent allowed to touch toys...not so easy for a 2yo.

 

The other place i described where kids were allowed to touch toys made it alot easier....

post #136 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

The service takes place in a preschool, but kids arent allowed to touch toys...not so easy for a 2yo.



OK this was NOT clear in any of your previous posts!!!! Unless I missed it! I don't understand how on earth ANY kid would be expected to stay calm & behaved when surrounded by fun things they aren't allowed to touch! That seems crazy to me! Is there another service somewhere else that you could try? Our church doesn't have toys or anything, the kids sit quietly, which I think would be much easier if there are not toys all over the place. This kind of boggles my mind... why why why would they have the service in the preschool unless they were going to let the kids take advantage of the equipment there?

post #137 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

The service takes place in a preschool, but kids arent allowed to touch toys...not so easy for a 2yo.



OK this was NOT clear in any of your previous posts!!!! Unless I missed it! I don't understand how on earth ANY kid would be expected to stay calm & behaved when surrounded by fun things they aren't allowed to touch! That seems crazy to me! Is there another service somewhere else that you could try? Our church doesn't have toys or anything, the kids sit quietly, which I think would be much easier if there are not toys all over the place. This kind of boggles my mind... why why why would they have the service in the preschool unless they were going to let the kids take advantage of the equipment there?

 

Uhh.....YEAH THAT! What the heck?  they can't play with the toys?  I mean, if the organization that does the service doesn't own them, it kinda makes sense, but seriously my 22mo ds would NEVER be able to keep his hands to himself in that kind of place.

 

I would find a new place to participate in the service.
 

post #138 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandelionkid View Post

I find it funny that people are thinking a kid raised consensually won't know how to function in the real world and end up in jail. The OP is obviously a thoughtful, introspective mother who is not raising her kids "hands-off" or neglectfully. It takes a lot of work to parent this way, just like it takes a lot more work to discipline without spanking. 



I think it depends on whether the parents live truly consensually -- in that the "Consent" is not only between parent and child, but between everyone involved.  So it's not always  enough if parent and child are okay with child's actions, if the other people involved don't agree.  If Mom and Child agree that Child can ride a bike at the park, but the bike belongs to an unrelated child, who has not consented to have her bike taken, then it isn't enough for Mom to say "CHild and I agreed that he'd ride for 15 minutes and then we'd go home."  Mom needs to get Unrelated Child's consent, too.

 

Having read a few posts from people who were not teaching their children that people outside of the family *also* get to consent to things, I think *those* kids may the ones being interviewed on TV in a few years telling the reporter "Oh, I saw the girl scouts with their money.  I wanted money.  I took it.  Everyone likes money!"   It seems like sometimes the takeaway message of the fact that Consensual Living is portrayed as a Disciplinary Style rather than a whole-life philosophy is that people don't see that it's not just about the immediate family.

post #139 of 146
Thread Starter 

Savithny, thanks for pointing that out. As for me, the respect i accord my children stems from my attitude to people in general. 

post #140 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

I

So i have two theories. The first is, my boys are exhibiting totally normal behavior. The other kids are strange-scared of parents, never see their parents so grateful to be with them, have strict nanny during the week.

 

But even at attachment parenting gatherings, the kids all seem so well behaved. By that i mean, many of the parents are stay at home moms. They dont use nannies much (some do)

 

My next theory- im a single mother, so i dont have the benefit of a deep voice and scary large physique-ie, the testosterone factor-that helps keep other children in line. I  know that many gentle disciplining mothers, have husbands that dont agree with this philosophy.

 

 

 


I think it could be a little of this and a little of that.

 

I never hit, spank, yell. But my kids know to respect me and act in a manner appropriate for their age and their surroundings or they face consequences.

 

Kids need to know that their actions have consequences.

 

I'm all for natrual consequences, but I also ensure that they have consequences that are appropriate for the offense.

 

I'm 5 foot 2 and 118 lbs. And my 6 foot tall son will immediately do as I ask. So you dont need to be intimidating to be listened to.

 

What do you expect of your sons? What are your goals? What are your rules?


 

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